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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:41 pm
  

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I am currently writing a Splicers adventure. Our heroes must infiltrate a variety of underground access areas to destroy a NEXUS core. Then it dawned on me if they players had to cross any sort of metal grating or metal flooring it would essentially become an impassable barrier on foot even if they are suited up in their living armor or host armor.

Another idea I had was pulverized, extremely fine metal powder introduced into the atmosphere would be the ultimate anti-human weapon.

Am I missing something here? Or is this an oversight which makes the machine nigh invincible?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:56 pm
  

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Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
1) The grating can be covered with resin or dissolved by acid or spores. Splicers can hover or fly over it or climb on ceilings or walls. They can burrow or or just run very fast before a nanoplague response can trigger.
2) Metallic powder in the atmosphere would be terrible for humans, but the Splicers creations would filter it out and expel it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:42 am
  

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Wooly wrote:
I am currently writing a Splicers adventure. Our heroes must infiltrate a variety of underground access areas to destroy a NEXUS core. Then it dawned on me if they players had to cross any sort of metal grating or metal flooring it would essentially become an impassable barrier on foot even if they are suited up in their living armor or host armor.

Another idea I had was pulverized, extremely fine metal powder introduced into the atmosphere would be the ultimate anti-human weapon.

Am I missing something here? Or is this an oversight which makes the machine nigh invincible?


I actually found this to be one of the things that attracted me to the setting. Like, how are the player characters supposed to destroy the brain of a machine when it's holed up in some mega-damage steel building that will literally kill you if you take a single step in? Like GK said, I had it where the infiltrators had to basically secrete this resin on the floor of the building, and they had a limited amount of it going in, making the maze of the building all the more difficult to navigate. They also had acid charges that would eat away at the metal allowing for quick and easy vertical movement between floors, but was also noisy drawing attention to the characters. It can be worked around, it's just difficult to and requires some imagination on the players park and some work for the GM as well.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:12 am
  

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metal stuff seems to be able to tell when it's part of a working machine creation and when it isn't. when it is, there is no nanoplague.

so, if you consider a machine factory to be part of a large "robot", walking on the floor won't trigger the nanoplague...

until the factory stops working :twisted:

(not sure if that is how machine facilities are treated or not, mind you)

the metal powder could potentially be rendered inert by various weapons as well. probably the best option would be something like the spore discharger (would take time, but can be used on your own position), but you might be able to make some of the other options work (it pretty much has to react with the cloud; acid nodules would work on what they hit but probably wouldn't hit enough, for example, so you'd need something more like an acid splash grenade, if there was one).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:51 pm
  

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Being heavier than air, metal powders won't stay airborne for very long.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:10 pm
  

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Shouldn't the nanites set off the plague all by themselves?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:41 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Shouldn't the nanites set off the plague all by themselves?


much like many other features of various palladium settings, it is recommended that for your own sanity you do not mix the nanobot plague with logic. side effects may include aneurisms, frustration, nerd rage, the metals inside of humans triggering the plague constantly, NEXUS gaining self-repairing robots that can assume thousands of different forms as the situation requires, the nanobot plague running out of nanobots any time things are left in a sealed environment where new nanobots can't reach, or the entire setting collapsing into sentient gray goo, among other things.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:00 pm
  

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flatline wrote:
Being heavier than air, metal powders won't stay airborne for very long.


I was thinking like a sand storm. Dirt particles are certainly heavier then air. Weather machine + fine as talcum powder metal particles.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:05 pm
  

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Wooly wrote:
flatline wrote:
Being heavier than air, metal powders won't stay airborne for very long.


I was thinking like a sand storm. Dirt particles are certainly heavier then air. Weather machine + fine as talcum powder metal particles.


The machines objective with the nanite plague is to control the humans otherwise it would just program the plague to kill them outright.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:08 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Shouldn't the nanites set off the plague all by themselves?


much like many other features of various palladium settings, it is recommended that for your own sanity you do not mix the nanobot plague with logic. side effects may include aneurisms, frustration, nerd rage, the metals inside of humans triggering the plague constantly, NEXUS gaining self-repairing robots that can assume thousands of different forms as the situation requires, the nanobot plague running out of nanobots any time things are left in a sealed environment where new nanobots can't reach, or the entire setting collapsing into sentient gray goo, among other things.


And the need for a physician in a blue phonebox to do some timey whimey stuff to stop everything from going whibbley wobbly

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:09 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Wooly wrote:
flatline wrote:
Being heavier than air, metal powders won't stay airborne for very long.


I was thinking like a sand storm. Dirt particles are certainly heavier then air. Weather machine + fine as talcum powder metal particles.


The machines objective with the nanite plague is to control the humans otherwise it would just program the plague to kill them outright.


Pretty much.

If I ever run a splicers game, I'll probably change how the nanite plague works. Haven't really decided how I want it to work yet.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:25 pm
  

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flatline wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Wooly wrote:
flatline wrote:
Being heavier than air, metal powders won't stay airborne for very long.


I was thinking like a sand storm. Dirt particles are certainly heavier then air. Weather machine + fine as talcum powder metal particles.


The machines objective with the nanite plague is to control the humans otherwise it would just program the plague to kill them outright.


Pretty much.

If I ever run a splicers game, I'll probably change how the nanite plague works. Haven't really decided how I want it to work yet.


If the machine wanted to kill humanity... If there was no Eve or Lillith then the nanites would have already ate mankind.

I imagine that technojackers are Eve's attempt at providing humanity with a way to fight. On the same note of the machine being unprepared and overconfident if people were ever able to manage to produce a bio version of an EMP the machine probably doesn't have EMP hardening.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:38 am
  

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i could actually see the technojackers being lillith's fault more than eve's. just sorta messing with hecate and kali, mostly.

in any event, i suspect the machine is EMP shielded (otherwise the fight would have been pretty short; remember, there was a fairly long period of time where humans used regular technology before the machine decided to take that away from them).

but the nanites almost certainly are not. EMP shielding takes up room. of course, so does protection from overheating. you probably couldn't make a human free of nanobots by making a room hot, but you could make the room free of nanobots (and you could probably invent "soft" or biological nanobots that hunt down the nanobot plague inside the human body to make a human free of the plague). but, like i said... it's best to not try to combine the nanobot plague with logic. the whole thing pretty much works on pure handwavium. it's best not to think about it too much.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:57 am
  

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There isn't any reason to keep humans from interacting with non mechanical objects it would still make bio-tech necessary. I am not interested in making something as simple as a metal grating floor a puzzle the players have to solve every time they are trying to infiltrate a NEXUS base.

The absolute weakest idea in the whole nano plague trope is that using shielding, i.e. gloves and tongs and the nano plague will still be able to attack the user (at half the normal interaction time IIRC). So if I built a biotech rube goldberg machine to trigger a laser rifle, the nano bots are going to spin the rifle around and attack me. Come the F on.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:22 pm
  

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I did almost the exact same basic premise a few years ago. I had a great session of Splicers where the PCs were tasked with destroying a Machine Power Plant. The adventure became one giant, moving fight for survival. Because of the metallic floor in the power plant, PCs couldn't stand still for longer than a few seconds at a time, and were forced to conduct a running battle while trying to complete the mission (its really hard to sneak around when the very floor itself could attack you! :eek: ) It was one of the best nights of role-playing I've had in 18+ years.

I'm a big fan of the nanoplague; it makes a great plot device and can serve as a wonderful "lingering threat" in the background. It helps to add an air of menace and danger to an adventure. It may not always be an active worry or problem, but it has the potential to erupt at any time and cause some havok and chaos.

Think of what a great weapon this is. N.E.X.U.S. doesn't really need a lot of fancy armamaments to inflict horrendous damage to humans; anything that sprays metal everywhere creates an instant hot zone. Cluster munitions, artillery shells, frag grenades, shotgun blasts, even spent ammunition casings are potential hazards. Sure, the PC lucks out and only takes a glancing hit from a frag grenade. But is there any shrapnel in the wound? If so, what's going to happen? Do they take the time to dig it out (and suffer additional damage) or take their chances and hope the plague response is minimal?

Also with the nanoplague comes some unique logistical problems. Your PCs are out of ammo, what do they do now? In Rifts and other games, its an easy answer. You scrounge weapons, ammo, equipment, etc. off your defeated foes. In Splicers, however, unless your PC is a Techno-Jacker, this is a disaster waiting to happen :twisted: .

Realistically, the nanoplague isn't a major threat in wilderness areas. However, it can drastically change the scope of adventures and campaigns in other areas. For example, crossing an old battlefield, littered with robot pieces and fragments, becomes an adventure in and of itself. And the nanoplague has a MAJOR impact on adventures/campaigns in cities, industrial areas, power plantes, etc. Not being able to simply pick up weapons and ammo from fallen foes also tests the PCs resourcefulness.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:36 pm
  

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Guy_LeDouche wrote:
Also with the nanoplague comes some unique logistical problems. Your PCs are out of ammo, what do they do now? In Rifts and other games, its an easy answer. You scrounge weapons, ammo, equipment, etc. off your defeated foes. In Splicers, however, unless your PC is a Techno-Jacker, this is a disaster waiting to happen :twisted: .


I don't see this being a real issue. Several weapons aren't ammo-constrained to begin with, and the rest regenerate their ammo.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:33 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
i could actually see the technojackers being lillith's fault more than eve's. just sorta messing with hecate and kali, mostly.

in any event, i suspect the machine is EMP shielded (otherwise the fight would have been pretty short; remember, there was a fairly long period of time where humans used regular technology before the machine decided to take that away from them).

but the nanites almost certainly are not. EMP shielding takes up room. of course, so does protection from overheating. you probably couldn't make a human free of nanobots by making a room hot, but you could make the room free of nanobots (and you could probably invent "soft" or biological nanobots that hunt down the nanobot plague inside the human body to make a human free of the plague). but, like i said... it's best to not try to combine the nanobot plague with logic. the whole thing pretty much works on pure handwavium. it's best not to think about it too much.


I'd disagree, if the world wasn't at war between human factions then they probably had eve set up to control the nukes... Cuz they don't know what WOPR or HAL is. That and most tacticians probably wouldn't think, "hey lets detonate a low orbit strategic nuke, the EMP will polarize the ionosphere and make radio comms impossible.". Remember that a tactical genious is one who uses things for things those things were not meant to be use for... Lets see 1, 2, 3... dang only three things. And we know they are lacking in the smarts department with what they made and allowed it to have control of... or would that just be lacking in the wisdom department, dang no way to fix that... there is no wisdom stat in PB games :)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:17 am
  

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Nanites are small enough that they probably don't need EMP shielding. If they don't have any internal conductors long enough to build up a damaging voltage potential difference as the EMP passes across them, then the EMP won't hurt them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:49 pm
  

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they're also kinda too small to have much tolerance. a circuit board, for example, can be completely and utterly destroyed by a static electricity shock from your finger.

and on a side note, nukes are not the only way to create EMPs. they are certainly among the most well-known ways, and probably the most straightforward way to do so across a massive area, but not the only way.

(also, if destroying radio communications hurts your enemy more than it hurts you, i'd expect a tactical genius to destroy radio communications).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:21 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
they're also kinda too small to have much tolerance. a circuit board, for example, can be completely and utterly destroyed by a static electricity shock from your finger.

and on a side note, nukes are not the only way to create EMPs. they are certainly among the most well-known ways, and probably the most straightforward way to do so across a massive area, but not the only way.

(also, if destroying radio communications hurts your enemy more than it hurts you, i'd expect a tactical genius to destroy radio communications).


I agree on the tactical genious. As for EMP what other ways do you know of. I know the military was trying to make an EMP bomb, to no avail, and the Navy has a floating antenna that they use to emit EMPs to test ships.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:19 pm
  

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depends how big of an EMP you want to generate.

it stands for electromagnetic pulse... all you need to do is generate a strong electromagnetic field, really. you can generate a (small) electromagnetic pulse using a good power supply (cameras, including the disposable variety, are a fairly common choice for DIY versions afaict, probably because they can generate a powerful charge out of a pair of AA batteries through the circuit that powers the camera flash), a whole bunch of tightly coiled wire (insulated from itself so that the loops don't short... that would be bad. note that you can do this homemade, but you can also just use an electromagnet since it is basically just a coil. in fact, this whole thing is basically just an electromagnet), and a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAnAjpXqc0

obviously, you won't be shutting down military-grade robots from miles away with this thing (particularly since military-grade robots are likely to have shielding), but the basic concept is there.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:07 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
depends how big of an EMP you want to generate.

it stands for electromagnetic pulse... all you need to do is generate a strong electromagnetic field, really. you can generate a (small) electromagnetic pulse using a good power supply (cameras, including the disposable variety, are a fairly common choice for DIY versions afaict, probably because they can generate a powerful charge out of a pair of AA batteries through the circuit that powers the camera flash), a whole bunch of tightly coiled wire (insulated from itself so that the loops don't short... that would be bad. note that you can do this homemade, but you can also just use an electromagnet since it is basically just a coil. in fact, this whole thing is basically just an electromagnet), and a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAnAjpXqc0

obviously, you won't be shutting down military-grade robots from miles away with this thing (particularly since military-grade robots are likely to have shielding), but the basic concept is there.

Regardless of how proficient that guy is at soldering and reading an electronic schematic... that is an EMF generator a pulse proliferates across open air and is not dependant on a constant source. When he can turn one on and then shut it off and across the room a second later electronics go off... That's an EMP. Pulsing an EMF doesn't make it an EMP it makes the EMF a PEMF. Essential his device fails the definition of transient EM disturbance in that it doesn't travel beyond the source of his gauss field an electromagnet that is strong and short, both because of the cap, is all that he made.

Thanks for the attempted lesson, I do like learning new things. As a prior service USAF NCOIC Ground radar maintenance. Meaning in charge of a shop that has to know this stuff because radars are both important to any war effort and extremely susceptible to EMP... or Electrical disturbances or static... Oh heck, if it is used in war and doesn't require the target to be living... it is bad for a radar.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:18 pm
  

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flatline wrote:
Guy_LeDouche wrote:
Also with the nanoplague comes some unique logistical problems. Your PCs are out of ammo, what do they do now? In Rifts and other games, its an easy answer. You scrounge weapons, ammo, equipment, etc. off your defeated foes. In Splicers, however, unless your PC is a Techno-Jacker, this is a disaster waiting to happen :twisted: .


I don't see this being a real issue. Several weapons aren't ammo-constrained to begin with, and the rest regenerate their ammo.



This is also why its a good idea for people especially in host armors to diversify their weapons. Have a mix of some that use ammo and a few that are unlimited. Also most splicer host armor are hand to hand monsters so are never fully out of combat ability.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:21 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
depends how big of an EMP you want to generate.

it stands for electromagnetic pulse... all you need to do is generate a strong electromagnetic field, really. you can generate a (small) electromagnetic pulse using a good power supply (cameras, including the disposable variety, are a fairly common choice for DIY versions afaict, probably because they can generate a powerful charge out of a pair of AA batteries through the circuit that powers the camera flash), a whole bunch of tightly coiled wire (insulated from itself so that the loops don't short... that would be bad. note that you can do this homemade, but you can also just use an electromagnet since it is basically just a coil. in fact, this whole thing is basically just an electromagnet), and a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAnAjpXqc0

obviously, you won't be shutting down military-grade robots from miles away with this thing (particularly since military-grade robots are likely to have shielding), but the basic concept is there.



The new splicers article from the last rifter on technojackers gives them some options for generating short range EMP bursts that can be quite potent to things in close proximity. More reasons why having some free lance jackers are handy if your group is infiltrating actual machine strong holds.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:45 am
  

Palladin

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
depends how big of an EMP you want to generate.

it stands for electromagnetic pulse... all you need to do is generate a strong electromagnetic field, really. you can generate a (small) electromagnetic pulse using a good power supply (cameras, including the disposable variety, are a fairly common choice for DIY versions afaict, probably because they can generate a powerful charge out of a pair of AA batteries through the circuit that powers the camera flash), a whole bunch of tightly coiled wire (insulated from itself so that the loops don't short... that would be bad. note that you can do this homemade, but you can also just use an electromagnet since it is basically just a coil. in fact, this whole thing is basically just an electromagnet), and a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAnAjpXqc0

obviously, you won't be shutting down military-grade robots from miles away with this thing (particularly since military-grade robots are likely to have shielding), but the basic concept is there.

Regardless of how proficient that guy is at soldering and reading an electronic schematic... that is an EMF generator a pulse proliferates across open air and is not dependant on a constant source. When he can turn one on and then shut it off and across the room a second later electronics go off... That's an EMP. Pulsing an EMF doesn't make it an EMP it makes the EMF a PEMF. Essential his device fails the definition of transient EM disturbance in that it doesn't travel beyond the source of his gauss field an electromagnet that is strong and short, both because of the cap, is all that he made.

Thanks for the attempted lesson, I do like learning new things. As a prior service USAF NCOIC Ground radar maintenance. Meaning in charge of a shop that has to know this stuff because radars are both important to any war effort and extremely susceptible to EMP... or Electrical disturbances or static... Oh heck, if it is used in war and doesn't require the target to be living... it is bad for a radar.


and a version with a more powerful field (either from cramming more coils in, or increased power supply, or iirc reduced resistance would work as well, would generate an equivalent strength field at range.

just because it is not a military grade EMP equal to what you get from detonating a nuclear device way up in the atmosphere doesn't mean it isn't capable of shutting down electronic equipment.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:47 am
  

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Monk

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Wooly wrote:
There isn't any reason to keep humans from interacting with non mechanical objects it would still make bio-tech necessary. I am not interested in making something as simple as a metal grating floor a puzzle the players have to solve every time they are trying to infiltrate a NEXUS base.

The absolute weakest idea in the whole nano plague trope is that using shielding, i.e. gloves and tongs and the nano plague will still be able to attack the user (at half the normal interaction time IIRC). So if I built a biotech rube goldberg machine to trigger a laser rifle, the nano bots are going to spin the rifle around and attack me. Come the F on.


A laser gun is not mechanical, sounds like a great reason an EMP generator and a nuke are also not mechanical.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:24 am
  

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Monk

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Shark_Force wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
depends how big of an EMP you want to generate.

it stands for electromagnetic pulse... all you need to do is generate a strong electromagnetic field, really. you can generate a (small) electromagnetic pulse using a good power supply (cameras, including the disposable variety, are a fairly common choice for DIY versions afaict, probably because they can generate a powerful charge out of a pair of AA batteries through the circuit that powers the camera flash), a whole bunch of tightly coiled wire (insulated from itself so that the loops don't short... that would be bad. note that you can do this homemade, but you can also just use an electromagnet since it is basically just a coil. in fact, this whole thing is basically just an electromagnet), and a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAnAjpXqc0

obviously, you won't be shutting down military-grade robots from miles away with this thing (particularly since military-grade robots are likely to have shielding), but the basic concept is there.

Regardless of how proficient that guy is at soldering and reading an electronic schematic... that is an EMF generator a pulse proliferates across open air and is not dependant on a constant source. When he can turn one on and then shut it off and across the room a second later electronics go off... That's an EMP. Pulsing an EMF doesn't make it an EMP it makes the EMF a PEMF. Essential his device fails the definition of transient EM disturbance in that it doesn't travel beyond the source of his gauss field an electromagnet that is strong and short, both because of the cap, is all that he made.

Thanks for the attempted lesson, I do like learning new things. As a prior service USAF NCOIC Ground radar maintenance. Meaning in charge of a shop that has to know this stuff because radars are both important to any war effort and extremely susceptible to EMP... or Electrical disturbances or static... Oh heck, if it is used in war and doesn't require the target to be living... it is bad for a radar.


and a version with a more powerful field (either from cramming more coils in, or increased power supply, or iirc reduced resistance would work as well, would generate an equivalent strength field at range.

just because it is not a military grade EMP equal to what you get from detonating a nuclear device way up in the atmosphere doesn't mean it isn't capable of shutting down electronic equipment.


Sorry, forgot there cant be a gauss field without something to polarize within the emf, so all the guy actually made was one half of an open air inductor, the electronic equipment forms the other part. An emp is transient meaning it travels not as much the other definition of temporary or short lived, though it is that too.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:56 pm
  

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Hero

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not sure if this has been done already, but has anyone created a organic emp generator before?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:34 am
  

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Hero

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Comment: Luck favors the prepared
abe wrote:
not sure if this has been done already, but has anyone created a organic emp generator before?


page 134 MB - Electro-Pulse Gun

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:28 pm
  

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why not booties and gloves (or whole suits) made of something like plastic or fabric? something that won't set off the virus, but which could be obtained via organic means?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:33 am
  

Palladin

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people have tried that (more or less). it delays the reaction of the plague, which is not nothing, but does not prevent it from happening.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:29 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm
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SlaytheDragon wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I am currently writing a Splicers adventure. Our heroes must infiltrate a variety of underground access areas to destroy a NEXUS core. Then it dawned on me if they players had to cross any sort of metal grating or metal flooring it would essentially become an impassable barrier on foot even if they are suited up in their living armor or host armor.

Another idea I had was pulverized, extremely fine metal powder introduced into the atmosphere would be the ultimate anti-human weapon.

Am I missing something here? Or is this an oversight which makes the machine nigh invincible?


I actually found this to be one of the things that attracted me to the setting. Like, how are the player characters supposed to destroy the brain of a machine when it's holed up in some mega-damage steel building that will literally kill you if you take a single step in? Like GK said, I had it where the infiltrators had to basically secrete this resin on the floor of the building, and they had a limited amount of it going in, making the maze of the building all the more difficult to navigate. They also had acid charges that would eat away at the metal allowing for quick and easy vertical movement between floors, but was also noisy drawing attention to the characters. It can be worked around, it's just difficult to and requires some imagination on the players park and some work for the GM as well.



Pretty much this you really have to work the problem because rebar reinforced concrete is now a deadly barrier to try to cut through. I find it works well to reinforce the fact that humans are barely holding in by their finger tips and about the only reason for it is the machine is broken. It also is what make what barren marshes did so spectacular as it emphasizes how much they had to overcome in a tiny time frame to accomplish it or they would have been likely wiped out.

But yes resin sprayers, metal eating acids and a lot of creativity are needed when going after actual installations of the machine.


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