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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:54 am
  

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Palladin

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I notice that Rifter 50 page 86 lists "can only be purchased twice per weapon" for the Opti upgrade.

I do not see a statement like this limiting the number of times you can purchase the upgrades on page 107. Rather than a total-amount, the limitation appears to be the frequency you buy it (not to mention the cost, which can be offset by saving Bio-E until those features upen up.

Like for example... I am wondering if you could buy the Omni upgrade at 2nd level to double range and then buy it again at 3rd level, to have it quadrupled.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:29 am
  

Palladin

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i'd say it is intended as a rule specific to that upgrade, not as a general rule applicable to all upgrades.

much as the munchkin in me might wish for ranged weapons with a range and AOE measured in miles, i see no reason to presume the other upgrades were intended to be usable multiple times.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:51 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Tor wrote:
Like for example... I am wondering if you could buy the Omni upgrade at 2nd level to double range and then buy it again at 3rd level, to have it quadrupled.

You cannot. Each of the ranged weapon upgrades can only be purchased once per ranged weapon modified. The opti upgrade is an exception to this rule.

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

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The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:
Because DINOSAURS.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:23 pm
  

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Palladin

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Is that restriction actually stated in the book somewhere though? Just wondering about the origin of this stance.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:32 pm
  

Palladin

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by way of information, the galactus kid's RL identity is Brandon K Aten.

you may wish to cross-reference that name with list of people who wrote the rifter 50 splicers article ;)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:17 am
  

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Hero

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I think it is common sense to assume that an upgrade can only be purchased once unless it specifically states otherwise.

Assuming the other way (that unless it states it is limited to only being purchased a specific number of times that it can be purchased as often as one wants) leads to a lot more problems down the line.

Imagine just how powerful the Omega Blaster could become if one could purchase multiple Mega upgrades, each one doubling the previous damage. Even if you limit it to adding the bade damage over and over again, it can still become a very powerful weapon with just a couple purchases of the Mega upgrade.

The simplest solution is usually the best... namely that unless an upgrade says it can be purchased more than once, assume it can only be bought once per weapon.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:14 am
  

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Palladin

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Whether or not a person wrote canon it is still acceptable to ask them for a page or quote to know whether a call is RAW or a new forum-originating rule.

He wrote the Opti-upgrade, was still Bellaire who wrote the core book so I would still like to know, cores-wise, if there is a restriction against multi-purchasing upgrases in the print itself.

Razor the problems down the line are manageable ones, IMO. Problems for the machines, more like.

It is true that a Mega-Mega-Mega-Omega Blaster would be pretty powerful. But even if you managed to reach the level of Phase World starship Main Guns in damage, the range would still be low compared to them. Such a person would be a prime target for LRMs from the Machine.

But then, the high Bio-E cost of the weapon means that even a perfect-rolling Dreadguard cannot buy it every single level of experience, so it would still be limited to higher-level characters.

Someone who dumps all eggs in one basket like that would also be easy-pickings to hordes of small robots to pick them down with overwhelming numbers.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:35 am
  

Palladin

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never mind mega. the hilarity doesn't really start until you begin stacking omni and suddenly a zephyr is capable of destroying entire machine cities from miles away with a few shots, and anyone with an omega blaster is firing a beam comparable in size to the portable synchro cannon in the new generation saga of robotech. i guess now we know how barren marsh managed to take out a major facility, the only mystery is why hasn't everyone else done the same?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:35 am
  

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Hero

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And.... here we go again...

I could ask where in the rules is it that states you can buy a ranged weapon upgrade more than once... using the same logic that since it doesn't say you can or can't to support my position too, but the simplest solution is usually the best solution. In this case, the simplest solution that avoids a lot of headaches down the line is that a ranged weapon upgrades can only be used once, unless specifically mentioned otherwise. Since this also seems to be the "official" stance, the onus of proving that the rules mean otherwise is yours.

As for the problems being just for the Machine to deal with... that really isn't true since the various Great Houses don't always get along. Sure, they tend to put aside their differences to fight the common enemy that is NEXUS, but that doesn't mean that Splicers won't go up against other Splicers at some point. And you can bet that if a Player can use the same ranged weapon upgrade on their weapons multiple times... the GM will do the same for Splicer opponents you face (and he can maximize the Bio-E his NPCs receive and then some... Bio-E gifts from Engineers, Librarians and Geneticists... all to make a suitable challenge for characters with Mega-Mega-Mega-Mega weapons; an Omni-Omni-Omni-Omni weapon could blast you many times before you even get within range to use the powerful damage your weapon deals... especially if he is a sniper and has the Vital Points: Organic skill to help him with called shots... just how much MDC does a Host Armor's head have?).

Anything the players can abuse... a GM can abuse better (since he is the one who sets the opposition).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:58 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: Working on getting Splicers more support!!!
Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Shark_Force wrote:
by way of information, the galactus kid's RL identity is Brandon K Aten.

you may wish to cross-reference that name with list of people who wrote the rifter 50 splicers article ;)

Ha. Thanks.
Tor wrote:
Whether or not a person wrote canon it is still acceptable to ask them for a page or quote to know whether a call is RAW or a new forum-originating rule.

True
Tor wrote:
Is that restriction actually stated in the book somewhere though? Just wondering about the origin of this stance.


So, the description of how things are enhanced can be found on page 76 of Splicers. With that in mind, it states that enhancements can be purchased along a line with prerequisites, and the same enhancement can be purchased multiple times, but effectively starts a different line. They use a ranged weapon as the example.

Extrapolating this, the Ranged weapon upggrades affect a ranged weapon and therefore can be purchased multiple times, but each time it is purchased it affects a different weapon. The Opti upgrade specifically states an exception to this rule.

I hope this clarifies things.

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:
You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

Marrowlight wrote:
The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:
Because DINOSAURS.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:02 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Shark_Force wrote:
never mind mega. the hilarity doesn't really start until you begin stacking omni and suddenly a zephyr is capable of destroying entire machine cities from miles away with a few shots

I am not sure if War Mounts are even allowed to buy Ranged Weapon Upgrades, it is not on the list they are allowed to get and it is unclear if the custom-mounts of Outriders are allowed to bypass those restrictions.

Shark_Force wrote:
anyone with an omega blaster is firing a beam comparable in size to the portable synchro cannon in the new generation saga of robotech. i guess now we know how barren marsh managed to take out a major facility, the only mystery is why hasn't everyone else done the same?

Probably because the machine would identify the origin of such a huge blast and target the culprit for extermination via a volley of 4 Smart Medium-Range missiles fired by Sky Fighters flying March 3 at an altitude of 60 000 feet.

*assumes the machine has LRM capability somehow but is not aware of anything statted out in the book capable of firing LRMs yet*

Razorwing wrote:
I could ask where in the rules is it that states you can buy a ranged weapon upgrade more than once

Good Q. Found something along those lines on page 76 right-column.

Quote:
you can have more than one of the same items/weapons/enhancements
..
just about anything should be possible when designing a Host Armor
..
Many of the enhancements will state within their description if the Host Armor is limited to a specific number of them

Together this gives me the impression that this is an unlimited-til-limited situation.

Razorwing wrote:
this also seems to be the "official" stance, the onus of proving that the rules mean otherwise is yours.

RAW is an important basis of rules, putting a limit-of-1-unless-otherwise-indicated cap on features, if not supported by text, would be a new ruling. Even if Bellaire or KS weighed in on that stance, unless it was text-supported, it would be a new rule, and still not original-Splicers.

Razorwing wrote:
Omni-Omni-Omni-Omni weapon could blast you many times before you even get within range to use the powerful damage your weapon deals... especially if he is a sniper and has the Vital Points: Organic skill to help him with called shots... just how much MDC does a Host Armor's head have?).

You should use cover in cases like that. Avoid wide-open areas that are sniper-bait if you think one would be out for you.

Am unaware of Vital Points: Organic, clearly I need to study the skills a bit more closely.

Razorwing wrote:
Anything the players can abuse... a GM can abuse better (since he is the one who sets the opposition).
Yup, so it all balances out.

The Galactus Kid wrote:
the description of how things are enhanced can be found on page 76 of Splicers. With that in mind, it states that enhancements can be purchased along a line with prerequisites, and the same enhancement can be purchased multiple times, but effectively starts a different line. They use a ranged weapon as the example.

Extrapolating this, the Ranged weapon upggrades affect a ranged weapon and therefore can be purchased multiple times, but each time it is purchased it affects a different weapon.

It says you can buy an upgrade separately for separate weapons but that does not mean you have to apply it to different weapons.

Like how a Biotic could buy a casting gun for their body and a casting gun for their living armor, or get 2 casting guns for himself. Being able to buy 2 upgrades for 2 things does not mean you cannot buy 2 upgrades for 1 thing.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:17 am
  

Palladin

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Tor wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
never mind mega. the hilarity doesn't really start until you begin stacking omni and suddenly a zephyr is capable of destroying entire machine cities from miles away with a few shots

I am not sure if War Mounts are even allowed to buy Ranged Weapon Upgrades, it is not on the list they are allowed to get and it is unclear if the custom-mounts of Outriders are allowed to bypass those restrictions.

Shark_Force wrote:
anyone with an omega blaster is firing a beam comparable in size to the portable synchro cannon in the new generation saga of robotech. i guess now we know how barren marsh managed to take out a major facility, the only mystery is why hasn't everyone else done the same?

Probably because the machine would identify the origin of such a huge blast and target the culprit for extermination via a volley of 4 Smart Medium-Range missiles fired by Sky Fighters flying March 3 at an altitude of 60 000 feet.

*assumes the machine has LRM capability somehow but is not aware of anything statted out in the book capable of firing LRMs yet*

[snip]


- the bonus bio-e in that category of stuff available to all war mounts is limited. the outrider is just given bio-e to spend however they desire.

- conveniently, along with the omega blaster of doom we have the ultimate in (conventional tech) anti-missile weaponry. the omni-omni-omni-omni-omni spore discharger, which keeps such a large area perpertually filled with spores that approaching missiles are destroyed at range (and arguably should not even detonate) while leaving splicers perfectly unharmed. as an added advantage, it *also* doubles as a tool for leveling the machine's factories and cities because of the nice big AOE on it (though you'll definitely want to start with a zephyr, since it's starting off with the full-strength spore discharger and almost a mega upgrade equivalent, courtesy of the twinlinked firing option)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:03 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: Working on getting Splicers more support!!!
Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Tor wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
the description of how things are enhanced can be found on page 76 of Splicers. With that in mind, it states that enhancements can be purchased along a line with prerequisites, and the same enhancement can be purchased multiple times, but effectively starts a different line. They use a ranged weapon as the example.

Extrapolating this, the Ranged weapon upggrades affect a ranged weapon and therefore can be purchased multiple times, but each time it is purchased it affects a different weapon.

It says you can buy an upgrade separately for separate weapons but that does not mean you have to apply it to different weapons.

Like how a Biotic could buy a casting gun for their body and a casting gun for their living armor, or get 2 casting guns for himself. Being able to buy 2 upgrades for 2 things does not mean you cannot buy 2 upgrades for 1 thing.

I don't see how that can be interpretted that way. You are improving an enhancement along a path. You can't purchase the casting cannon enhancement twice for the same casting gun. You develop along a path. The ranged weapon enhancements are along that path.

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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:
You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

Marrowlight wrote:
The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:
Because DINOSAURS.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:13 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Shark_Force wrote:
the bonus bio-e in that category of stuff available to all war mounts is limited. the outrider is just given bio-e to spend however they desire.

That is probably the case. The RAW text does not explicitly make the other categories open (you could read it as meaning 'spend as you desire from the aforementioned categories', basically) but the NPC example has a Mount with upgrades not on that list, so it does seem like they all must be open.

Shark_Force wrote:
the ultimate in (conventional tech) anti-missile weaponry.
the omni-omni-omni-omni-omni spore discharger

At least until the Machine begins designing a ceramic or plastic coating for the missiles, at which point you may also need a damage boost to be able to inflict enough to the missile to destroy it before it hits. Although it says on page 10 that the Machine discontinued using these components, it could always begin using them in selective instances if strategy calls for it.

You would also need whoever is firing this weapon to be able to actually detect the missile to fire at it, unless you want to keep them on 24/7 spray duty for any surprise bombardments. You would probably need 2-4 suits that focus on this weapon chain to totally guard an area in manageable shifts.

Even then, to prevent barriers from interfering with the radius of the spore-misting, the person would have to be out in the open. The machine could use long-range sensor equipment to pinpoint the center of the spore-cloud and detect who is creating it, and then try to target that person with different kinds of long-range attacks.

As soon as the machine finds something resistant or even immune to the spore clouds, it could use that to compromise their source.

For example: fill a giant bag of soil, drop it from 60 000 feet onto the person shooting out the spore clouds.

Suddenly they are covered in dirty and the spores cannot be fired until they escape. The cloud goes down and the machine lays down a volley of missiles and takes out before the 1st guy can escape or the backup spore-launcher on his break can take their place.

I guess you could have 1 spore guy on standby who avoids actually firing so that he is not made a target and whose duty is to begin immediately if the previous guys stop. That would complicate tactics for the machine.

Shark_Force wrote:
keeps such a large area perpertually filled with spores that approaching missiles are destroyed at range (and arguably should not even detonate) while leaving splicers perfectly unharmed.

You will eat through any rock or ceramics in the area though. Even though they take less damage, keeping an area saturated with spores will destroy anything you make out of that.

Particularly rough for the Lithovore-metabolism Host Armors who will have to go out into the danger zone to get their rocks to eat, or else somehow store them in a way that the Spore-Cloud cannot get in.

Shark_Force wrote:
*also* doubles as a tool for leveling the machine's factories and cities because of the nice big AOE on it (though you'll definitely want to start with a zephyr, since it's starting off with the full-strength spore discharger and almost a mega upgrade equivalent, courtesy of the twinlinked firing option)

Definitely better as a Zephyr, probably too many countermeasures if someone is slow and landbound.

The Galactus Kid wrote:
You can't purchase the casting cannon enhancement twice for the same casting gun.

That's because Casting Rifle is a prerequisite and you no longer have that prerequisite once you change the Rifle into a Cannon.

The Galactus Kid wrote:
You develop along a path. The ranged weapon enhancements are along that path.

The RWUs are not a fixed path like the Thrower>Launcher>Rifle>Cannon chain, they can be taken at any point, in any order, so they are just add-ons. They do not have prerequisites that limit them to 1-only like the Casting chain.

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