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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:53 pm
  

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Palladin

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Page 86's Enhanced Speed Factor seems to present conflicting data about this.

Initially it says 300mph (which is the Biotic max) and then later under Bio-E cost it says 150mph for Host.

Considering Gorehounds are 450, I think I kind of like the idea of making it 300 for Biotics and 150 for Host. If you think about it... Biotics probably should be capable of higher speeds since they aren't squishy on the inside and could handle the forces better.

Seems like are Gorehounds possibly the 2nd fastest things on the human side? Only thing faster would be an Archangel with a Personalized Weird Wing Pack, which would start at 460. Even a Personal-Feather-Wing-Pack would be slower than a maxed-out Gorehound initially (though the mph per level Archangels get could still let higher ones surpass the hounds)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:57 pm
  

Palladin

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maxed-out gorehounds are mostly a theoretical possibility. if you had that much bio-e available, it would more likely be spread out between several hounds, and not much of it would likely go to speed... what's the point in having one super-fast hound? they're already a heck of a lot faster than the packmaster anyways, outrunning you more won't help a ton. practically speaking, the maximums are not something that is remotely likely to happen on just about anything anyways...


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:10 am
  

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You can ride on a Gorehound so that would increase your own mobility too when needed.

Although that might mean leaving your other hounds behind, so they should be in a guarded area.

Then there's also the option of sending the fastest Gorehound out as a scout and using them to lure enemies they encounter into an ambush where the slower Gorehounds are hiding.

So what do you think about the 150 versus 300 max for Host Armor?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:18 am
  

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i think it's better to find other ways to move fast. there are very, very few times where it is super-useful to have one person in the group move substantially faster than everyone else in the setting. this is not a game where you take on the machine alone, this is a game where you are alone because your team was stupid enough to stand and fight the machine instead of doing a quick ambush and then heading for the hills, and now you're the only one left alive (for now).

the machine is far faster than you anyways, so you're much better off investing your bio-e into hiding.

or, in other words, it's never come up for me or my groups. there is a maximum. nobody has ever gotten to the point where it was an issue.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:21 pm
  

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Well the idea for a fast person would be to do hit-and-run tactics. You can go out alone, kill something, then run away before the buddies take you down. This would only work if you had a home base and friends to back you up though, once you stopped and pursuers caught up with you.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:36 pm
  

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but you could do it cheaper and better with a hit-and-hide plan instead. your plan requires one person to take on all the robots in a patrol and kill or disable all of them before running. that's crazy talk. the machine has every advantage. if you want to shake them, you pretty much have to hit hard enough to destroy them fast, and that takes everyone.

not only that, but all your resources invested into move speed, you're not going to have much of anything else. you'll run super fast, and then have to fight with hand weapons and such. not exactly ideal.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:01 pm
  

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Palladin

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Er no, you do not have to disable or kill any of them. Even inflicting damage and then running will create attrition and necessitate them to make repairs. Obviously if you can manage to destroy something that would be even better, but the whole group does not have to die.

You just need to be able to hit and run and survive, then go heal up and if they manage to tail you, they walk into a trap from friends on terrain of your choice. Perhaps leading enemies into a crossfire from some Gardener Photon Turrets for example. That way you could coordinate it with a Gardener so they can time it to be active and withhold fire until there is no escape. As opposed to being passively invaded when a Gardener might not be on duty and able to withhold fire to prevent scare-off position-revealing shots.

That said, it probably is cheaper to just get a wing pack and use its speed for these tactics rather than max out a hound.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:49 pm
  

Palladin

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if you don't kill or disable the robots, it is fairly likely that at least some of them will be able to follow you. what's worse, they will be able to call in for reinforcements, and even if those robots can't follow you, you can bet there will be some reasonably nearby that *can* follow you, and that those robots will most likely still outnumber you by a significant margin (not to mention that there are quite possibly more robots in the direction you're running towards; they don't have to run faster than you to force a fight if they're already ahead of you).

but in any event, if speed is a desirable goal, i'd expect specialized war mounts or wing packs long before specialized host armours. in fact, i'd go so far as to say that most any great house will have a few dracos that are extremely fast, specifically for situations that do call for rapid movement of troops (dracos being the personnel carriers of the resistance in addition to their other functions)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:01 pm
  

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Yes, I said you should have a base or friends to back you up so that if/when you are followed, they can ambush your pursuers.

I'm not sure if it's possible to amplify the speed of dracos, although their brief bursts are very impressive, it's still below the maxed-out jetpack that BioE can buy.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:27 pm
  

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that base can likely only be held for a minute or so, tops. when i say outnumber, i don't mean something like you have 6 people, they have 7 or 8. i mean you have 6 people, they have access to 600, though probably only 20-30 of those can make it with extreme speed, and if you stay there for more than 10-15 minutes you're probably going to be facing as many as 100.

the machine vastly outnumbers the resistance. giving the machine enough time to react to you is suicide. you ambush them where they are, because you can't afford to waste any precious time before they send 10 times your number to hunt you down and destroy you.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:57 pm
  

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Palladin

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That is what you do, it's attrition, you heavily damage or destroy 1 or more units (think a flier equipped with 15 missiles, all launched in a single surprise volley) and then ditch, and have friends to help ambush any possible surviving pursuers.

But nobody sticks around long enough to let a huge army come.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:04 pm
  

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and yet, i cannot help but feel that, having ambushed the enemy once in the first place, you're really taking your chances by trying to lead them into a second ambush after they're already aware that you're running, most likely towards help.

not to mention, let's suppose you have 5 people. you *could* have one person ambush the enemy and lead the robots back to the others. *or* you could just have those 5 people ambush the enemy in the first place, and unload 75 rockets (or whatever else; actually, against the machine my preferred weapon is the spore discharger, since it scales to quite an impressive level; the damage isn't massive, but the AOE is beastly, and if you really put in the effort to upgrade it you can wind up with 8d8 damage in an 80 foot radius... or, if you have a zephyr, 14d8 in an 80 foot radius, thanks to the twinlinked version. get a few people with those and the machine can't really dodge, parry, or roll with punch realistically to avoid the damage... )

i feel like it would be much much safer to not give the enemy information like the direction you traveled in. in fact, ideally your enemy doesn't even find out you were there until the patrol fails to report in, which is much more likely to happen with a multi-person alpha strike.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:11 am
  

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Palladin

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In this situation, only the runner has rockets, the idea would be that your friends are melee-focused warriors and would need you to lure the enemy into close quarters to engage them. Like into a forest or something.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:51 am
  

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i don't think there's a single class that's so melee-focused it doesn't get any ranged weapons.

i suppose you could deliberately choose not to have any, but i'm having a hard time imagining that character being widely accepted... certainly, you can have characters that *prefer* melee (or short range), but to have one that literally does not have ranged attacks would be really odd.

even if you don't have it from your enhancements, pretty much everyone can get a handheld gun or three. even if they can't contribute as much as a full barrage of missiles, they should be able to contribute *something*

(heck, most characters i've designed will have at least 2-3 ranged weapons, with the result that even if someone else in the group doesn't have a gun, they could borrow one).

but if we suppose that you have the capacity to make a close-range ambush (if you don't, you're not going to be luring the robots into anything), you can also just make the close-range ambush at the same time as the rocket barrage. the rocket will need to be rather closer so followup attacks can be made with shorter ranged weapons most likely, but you can still have the entire ambush go off at once for better results.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:19 am
  

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Even if we assume the vast majority all have ranged weapons, they could still be inferior to the damage they can inflict in close quarters so that kind of encounter could still be preferable. Handheld guns might also have run out of ammo.

Making a close-range ambush seems like it could be easier if you are lying immobile in wait and having an enemy come to you, rather than having to be mobile and try to remain obscured while approaching an immobile enemy. We can see this in how the percentile varies for Chameleon or Stealth.

Why would the rocket have to be close? It can go a mile, or even longer if you get upgrades (although if you have to pay per each missile, that is sucky, a nice GM will let the upgrade apply to all missiles)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:45 pm
  

Palladin

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your scenario is already requiring that you be able to ambush at close range (otherwise, when you lure the patrol to your ambush, it's not going to go very well - as i said, they now know there are enemies in the area, and it's a pretty good bet you're running towards reinforcements, so they shouldn't be *too* surprised). therefore, why not simply ambush them at close range in the first place? you obviously have the capacity to do so, since your second plan requires it.

as to why you'd want the rocket launching character to be a bit closer, it's so that you can support your team. after firing the missile barrage into the center of the fight (hopefully destroying or at least severely damaging a number of enemies), you want to be able to continue to support them. unless your other weapons also have a 1 mile range, that means you need to be less than a mile away.

as to running out of ammo with handheld weapons, that's possible but relatively unlikely; if you don't have an unlimited ammo weapon built into yourself, your armour, your warmount, or your gear, you really should be taking an unlimited ammo hand weapon, such as the light cell rifle or pistol. of course, more ideally for this situation everyone would have something like a pod rifle even if only for the start of the ambush, with perhaps a few using bio rocket slingers, which are admittedly ammo-dependant (though pod rifles at least have a pretty good ammo supply and recharge quickly).

but just to show how well-equipped characters generally are (other than the saint):

the archangel is guaranteed to have 2 light and a heavy bio-weapon, with easy access to a second heavy (just needs proficiency), in addition to forced ranged bio-weapons on their flight pack (and optional on their living armour)

the biotic is tied for worst off with only guaranteed access to one light weapon, but still has very easy access to getting a heavy weapon (just needs the WP). though of course both their armour and they themselves are capable of having weapons built-in, and most likely will.

the dreadguard is guaranteed to start with 1-2 light, one heavy, and has easy access to another light (just needs proficiency). plus anything in his host armour or living armour (if he even uses it).

the outrider has 2-3 light weapons, plus the guaranteed weapons on the war mount, plus whatever options they pick for their war mount, host armour, and (if they choose to use it) living armour.

the packmaster has 1 light or heavy, plus one additional light or heavy guaranteed, plus an easy pickup for both (he's forced into gaining either WP light or heavy from skill programs, and can easily get both), plus anything he builds into his armour or hounds.

the roughneck is second worst, with guaranteed access to one light or heavy weapon and easy access to whichever they didn't already get. plus of course whatever their host armour or living armour has built-in.

the scarecrow gets 1 light and 1 heavy, with easy access to 1 more of each (just has to actually be proficient with the weapons they own)

the skinjob is the other OCC tied for worst, with only one light guaranteed but with access to another light and heavy. of course, they're not exactly a combat character, either, so that's not terribly surprising.

the technojacker can't exactly share his weapons or have weapons shared from other OCCs, but does start with 1-2 weapons plus 1-2 per WP.

in addition, since every OCC other than saint gets a weapon for every WP they have, it is further possible for each OCC (including the technojacker) to pick up an ancient ranged weapon, which they are permitted to own an MD version of (rules are on page 130-131 for this), which all OCCs additionally get enough ammo for heavy combat.

simply put, apart from the saint (who generally won't fight, though i would argue they'd make an exception for the machine since nothing living is being harmed), every character has guaranteed access to a ranged weapon, with easy access to at least a second ranged weapon, with that easy access often extending to give them as many as 4 ranged weapons (provided these combat OCCs actually take proficiency in the weapons they're given in situations where they aren't forced into proficiency, which i don't think is a stretch)

"i don't have a ranged weapon to contribute with" shouldn't be a problem for anyone, except for maybe a gore hound or a (mega) horse.

rather, everyone will more realistically have 3-4 ranged weapons, and at least one of them should be unlimited ammo unless that need is filled elsewhere (eg a host armour, living armour, flight pack, etc) since that weapon is essentially their fallback option.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:45 pm
  

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Palladin

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edit: fixing quoting, for some reason my close tags got bunched together in 1 spot, no idea how
Shark_Force wrote:
your scenario is already requiring that you be able to ambush at close range (otherwise, when you lure the patrol to your ambush, it's not going to go very well - as i said, they now know there are enemies in the area, and it's a pretty good bet you're running towards reinforcements, so they shouldn't be *too* surprised). therefore, why not simply ambush them at close range in the first place? you obviously have the capacity to do so, since your second plan requires it.

There is a difference between initiating a close-range ambush on an enemy when they are immobile and you are approaching them versus initiating a close-range ambush on an enemy when you are immobile and they are approaching you.

Check the percentages for chameleon and cloak. They are much lower when you are moving.

If your group remains immobile and flat on the ground, the robots would have a much lower chance of detecting them, so it would be easier to remain undetected for longer and have them walk right on top of you, possibly including things like land mines.

On page 106 the Trench Foot Mines (or the Migs from page 137) could be used to saturate a planned area and your runner can lead them through that area.

Shark_Force wrote:
as to why you'd want the rocket launching character to be a bit closer, it's so that you can support your team. after firing the missile barrage into the center of the fight (hopefully destroying or at least severely damaging a number of enemies), you want to be able to continue to support them. unless your other weapons also have a 1 mile range, that means you need to be less than a mile away.


The idea is that you fire the rockets from a mile off and rather than get closer to them, they may possible be lured closer to you, at which point you can enter the fray with allies.

Or, if you happen to be an Omega-Blaster, you could keep your distance and just fire that. Let the others meat-shield while you maintain your annihilation-weapon.

Shark_Force wrote:
in addition, since every OCC other than saint gets a weapon for every WP they have, it is further possible for each OCC (including the technojacker) to pick up an ancient ranged weapon, which they are permitted to own an MD version of (rules are on page 130-131 for this)


Although picking a MD version of an ancient weapon (like a bow I guess, or a sling) is an option, it might just be an SDC version too, probably up to player or GM to decide the caliber of weapon when given vague descriptions like that. Like in Rifts when it says players start with an ancient magic weapon, it is not necessarily going to be a Battlefury Blade or a Sword of Atlantis, although it might be. Luckily MD ancient WPs in Splicers are common enough that the choice is not too unusual.

Shark_Force wrote:
rather, everyone will more realistically have 3-4 ranged weapons, and at least one of them should be unlimited ammo unless that need is filled elsewhere (eg a host armour, living armour, flight pack, etc) since that weapon is essentially their fallback option.

True, in this case I just mean melee-beasts who inflict way more damage with their claws or what-not compared to less-damage light blasts.

Although those light guns do have unlimited ammo, I think that only lasts as long as the nutrient bath effects do, meaning that it does run out after a week until you can get back to a Bao House or whatever other sources of nutrient baths can fulfill that purpose (I seem to recall some armor can do that as well)

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Last edited by Tor on Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:20 pm
  

Palladin

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just to start off: please fix your quote boxes. i didn't say half the stuff you "quoted", and i certainly didn't nest my own quotes through half a dozen posts.

- everyone ambushing together does not require that you move. rather, just as ambushing a patrol from far away, it will require a knowledge of the patrol's expected path. if you don't have that knowledge, there will be no ambushing done anyways.

- as i noted, if everyone is in range you can get more attacks off. if you've alerted them to your presence, the element of surprise is basically gone, and only you get to make an attack. furthermore, if it takes them a melee round to get to you, that's a melee round during which they've had time to call for more help. as to standing back and firing with an omega blaster while your friends all rush into melee... that's... ummm... an interesting tactic. you do realize that it has an area of effect, right?

- sure, and the GM could decide that your dreadguard's host armour is dead when you first get it. that doesn't make it a reasonable basis for anything (though actually, i think you would be picking a regular bow, and MDC/MD arrows).

- my point is that melee builds can still take part in a ranged alpha-strike because basically everyone in the resistance is armed to the teeth (in some cases, literally). everyone will have some kind of ranged weapon with which to contribute to an initial strike designed to destroy an enemy. more damage is nice, but destroying a group of enemies before they can call in help is better. this is especially true if everyone is letting fly with a burst from a pod rifle (and even more true if your group uses the optional rules for customizing handheld bio-weapons).

and yes, hand weapons are only unlimited until they go dormant... but then, over half the OCCs in the game need regular access to nutrient baths for their gear anyways, so if your weapons aren't working you've probably got bigger issues.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:32 am
  

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Palladin

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Sorry bout that, fixed. My laptop becomes unable to do brackets after a while requiring my to copy-paste them and sometimes I wait until the end to do that and then forget, though in this case I seem to have posted them but rather than spread at the ends of your sentences they all got bunched in the middle, weirdness.

You're correct that if you can predict the path you can also lay ambushes while waiting passively. I guess I just don't know how to predict machines so I figure it's easier to influence their path so they go where you want, in case I can't predict right. I am guessing something like the Intelligence skill might be involved in path-prediction.

If tanks using ranged weapons can destroy bots faster with their pellet guns, power to them. Resorting to melee would obviously suck if you didn't get the drop and wasted time closing distance and gave them radio time before smashing. If they were chasing a single runner and thought they could deal with that runner I don't know if they would radio for backup though.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:20 am
  

Palladin

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in any event, i'm not sure that i would say melee is great for dealing damage, per se, in splicers... what melee (or in some cases very short-ranged attacks) is actually quite good at is special effects.

the damage is certainly respectable on some of the melee weapons, but with a simple bio-e vent you can add your PE to damage which is often quite big (especially for scarecrows). even the light cell rifle offers close to that (22.5 average), and those are on the comparative low end of the scale. the heat projector is probably the biggest source of consistent damage (though of course it's also limited to enhancements, there's no portable version). even then, that's just single-target damage; with the right weapons, you can hit entire groups from range, which is especially important if you're ambushing a group of enemies (i've already mentioned the pod rifle as a hand-held option, but i shouldn't neglect to mention that you can fire 4-rocket volleys with a hand-held weapon that are more powerful and longer-ranged, although ammo is definitely a major concern with them).

but when you look at some of the melee or short range options, you find weapons that can cut cables in a single action, weapons that can restrain an enemy, weapons that can cause robots to lock up, weapons that knock targets down (causing them to lose actions), weapons that stun or deafen living targets, etc. you can still get fairly respectable damage (particularly if you have paired weapons or reverse stroke), but for the most part it's not dramatically better than you could have dealt from over 1000 feet away with the right weapons. (there are exceptions however... acid nodules and flying blades with extreme levels of investment can do very impressive damage).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:45 am
  

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Melee damage would be a bit more impressive if punch damage stacked but reading the SNPS table I get the impression it is one of those 'higher of the two' situations like in RUE and PF unlike HU and NB which stack them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:17 am
  

Palladin

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mostly yes. there are a few exceptions though. combat spurs explicitly stack with splicer PS for damage (and thus, arguably for supernatural PS damage), and can stack with WP armour for example. various other things explicitly add damage.

sources of extra damage for assorted types of melee attacks include:

armoured head crest
horned defense
quill defense
reinforced exoskeleton
adrenaline surge (through increased PS)
enhanced physical strength (same)
additional pair of insect limbs
hands: armoured skin
hands: pincers or scythes
legs: hoofed feet
legs: leaping legs
legs: serpentine lower body (through increased PS, but also the crush/squeeze attack; also some other interesting options)
combat tail
claws
combat spurs
horns
reinforced knuckles or body area
electrical weapons (requires some GM interpretation)
spines and blades
various physical skills for biotics (possibly, ask your GM, through increased PS. on a side note, it is quite helpful for ambushes where the initial surprise attack doesn't really have an action cost)
aerobic athletics (however, it just gives "+2 to kicking damage" with no indication of it being more than SDC for those with MD kicks; my guess is that most GMs will say it's only SDC no matter what)
fencing
horsemanship (technically there is no restriction to melee attacks in the book, but i am considering the damage to be a melee bonus only, and i expect most everyone else will feel the same way)
host armour combat (kicks only)
pilot wing packs
WP armour
WP paired weapons (with two weapons, of course)
WP reverse stroke (with a single large weapon)

which of these stack is of course GM's discretion (and the list above is not necessarily exhaustive, it's just what i could find on short notice)

in general, if you really build for it you can do pretty solid melee damage... but the damage alone is unlikely to be superior to ranged by a significant margin if at all, and the cost involved can be extremely high. it's the special options that make it worth anything.


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