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 Post subject: Intelligent Host Armor
Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:38 am
  

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Hero

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One idea I recently had was the idea of having a House experiment with the idea of giving Host Armor intelligence... not unlike how J.A.R.V.I.S. is portrayed in the Iron Man movies.

My thinking is that the House that developed this form of Host Armor felt that two minds working together would be able to achieve more than they could individually. It would also allow the Host Armor to take over should anything happen to the pilot (rendered unconscious for some reason). The pilot would retain primary control of the armor of course... and the Armor couldn't function without the pilot. The armor's intelligence would basically monitor the pilot, itself and advise on courses of action that could be taken (the pilot has final say of course).

Of course the down side is that it may be possible for the Armor with a strong intelligence to possibly take over (sort of what the Venom symbiote tried to do with Spiderman on several occasions). This of course would make for an interesting adventure of its own as players with intelligent armors work together to 1) capture the renegade armor and free its captive pilot and 2) to prove that this is a rare case and that intelligent armors can be used safely without worry of taking control of their pilots.

I'd like to explore this concept further and would like some insight that others might have on such a subject... the benefits and drawbacks such Host Armors would have... how a Great House might introduce such armors... and other factors I may not have thought of with this concept.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:18 am
  

Palladin

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they did.

they called it a warmount.

it works very well, for the record.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:20 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
Love the idea.

I would handle it with perception bonuses, perhaps an autododge if the armor had systems that could sense and respond to attacks. Maybe an extra attack per melee since the armor could notice an opportunity and react to take advantage of it.

Drawbacks? well I think you already outlined the main one. You're riding inside another thinking being that might disobey your control. Other than that possibly production cost and time to train the armor?

As to introduction, Hey its war if they can get an advantage they are going to use it.

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"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:08 am
  

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Champion

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downside. You take off your carnivorous armor to bathe/crap/sleep whatever. It decides that it is hungry when you have your pants/pants/guard down.

Upside, when the pilot is unconscious (not asleep) or badly injured the host armor takes over with only 2 options at its disposal. run or hide.

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keir451 wrote:
Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!

Razzinold wrote:
And the award for best witty retort to someone reporting a minor vehicular collision goes to:
The Oh So Amazing Nate!

Nate, you sir win the internet for today! You've definitely earned the "oh so amazing" part of your name today. :lol:


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:02 am
  

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Hero

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Quote:
downside. You take off your carnivorous armor to bathe/crap/sleep whatever. It decides that it is hungry when you have your pants/pants/guard down.


Host Armors can't move without the pilot inside them, thus they can't eat their own pilot (well... the parasitic armor can...but that's its nature).

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:24 am
  

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Razorwing wrote:
Host Armors can't move without the pilot inside them, thus they can't eat their own pilot (well... the parasitic armor can...but that's its nature).


So you're just talking an extra brain in the host armor (above and beyond that of the pilot), but not giving it the ability to act autonomously.

Still, like was mentioned above with the "hiccups" that Arachno-boy had with his other worldly mutually beneficial costume. I wouldn't want something like that have the smarts to hold me hostage.

I would make it absolutely incompatible (for players) with a parasitic host armor. However a dick GM could use it as a trap. Intelligent parasitic host armor armed to the teeth found in pristine condition but with no signs of an owner. Greedy player hops in...and is eaten alive while the armor does nefarious things with the pc inside.

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Look upon me and tremble ye masses. For I am The Necroposter!
keir451 wrote:
Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!

Razzinold wrote:
And the award for best witty retort to someone reporting a minor vehicular collision goes to:
The Oh So Amazing Nate!

Nate, you sir win the internet for today! You've definitely earned the "oh so amazing" part of your name today. :lol:


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:14 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Host Armors can't move without the pilot inside them, thus they can't eat their own pilot (well... the parasitic armor can...but that's its nature).


So you're just talking an extra brain in the host armor (above and beyond that of the pilot), but not giving it the ability to act autonomously.

Still, like was mentioned above with the "hiccups" that Arachno-boy had with his other worldly mutually beneficial costume. I wouldn't want something like that have the smarts to hold me hostage.

I would make it absolutely incompatible (for players) with a parasitic host armor. However a dick GM could use it as a trap. Intelligent parasitic host armor armed to the teeth found in pristine condition but with no signs of an owner. Greedy player hops in...and is eaten alive while the armor does nefarious things with the pc inside.
Sounds like a good trap to leave outside your rival House.
:twisted:

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"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:20 am
  

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Thinyser wrote:
Sounds like a good trap to leave outside your rival House.
:twisted:[/quote]

Due to a surprising and unexplained loss of participants from this years games, Slytherin wins the House Cup.

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keir451 wrote:
Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!

Razzinold wrote:
And the award for best witty retort to someone reporting a minor vehicular collision goes to:
The Oh So Amazing Nate!

Nate, you sir win the internet for today! You've definitely earned the "oh so amazing" part of your name today. :lol:


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:46 am
  

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Hero

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Only one problem with that... Host armors are tailored to specific pilots... no one else can actually use them except that specific pilot.

With this view, even a Parasitic Armor could be surprisingly noble... knowing the damage it does to it's pilot it would probably advise its pilot when the damage it is doing is too great. Additionally, the Parasitic Armor is more likely to understand the meaning of sacrifice as its pilot is willing to sacrifice his/her life to the armor... thus it may be willing to do the same for the pilot.

As one last act to protect their pilot, these intelligent armors when they sense themselves on the verge of death could open up to allow the pilot to live and fight another day... meaning that the pilot doesn't need outside assistance to get out of a dying/dead host armor.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:44 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
Razorwing wrote:
Only one problem with that... Host armors are tailored to specific pilots... no one else can actually use them except that specific pilot.

With this view, even a Parasitic Armor could be surprisingly noble... knowing the damage it does to it's pilot it would probably advise its pilot when the damage it is doing is too great. Additionally, the Parasitic Armor is more likely to understand the meaning of sacrifice as its pilot is willing to sacrifice his/her life to the armor... thus it may be willing to do the same for the pilot.

As one last act to protect their pilot, these intelligent armors when they sense themselves on the verge of death could open up to allow the pilot to live and fight another day... meaning that the pilot doesn't need outside assistance to get out of a dying/dead host armor.


Good points and well reasoned ;)

_________________
"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:40 pm
  

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Palladin

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Couldn't the spell 'Friend in the Head' from Nightbane WB3: Through the Glass Darkly accomplish this, in a crossover?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:15 pm
  

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Hero

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Quote:
Couldn't the spell 'Friend in the Head' from Nightbane WB3: Through the Glass Darkly accomplish this, in a crossover?


Not to be rude... but I wasn't looking for a cross-over solution. This is more about doing it within the Splicer setting... not how to accomplish it using any possible solution in any Palladium book. Yes, the spell can accomplish this feat... but that doesn't matter because Splicers don't have access to Fleshsculpting magic... or any magic for that matter.

Let's try to stay within the Splicer setting for this.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:45 am
  

Palladin

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like i said, what you are proposing is basically a completely ordinary garden-variety warmount.

by default, when you are on a warmount, you combine your bonuses, attacks per melee, everything, and basically get a single stronger creature as a result of the fusion of two minds and modies into one.

except that yours is much less flexible and offers fewer bonuses, i suppose.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:18 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
Shark_Force wrote:
like i said, what you are proposing is basically a completely ordinary garden-variety warmount.

by default, when you are on a warmount, you combine your bonuses, attacks per melee, everything, and basically get a single stronger creature as a result of the fusion of two minds and bodies into one.

except that yours is much less flexible and offers fewer bonuses, i suppose.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are not actually inside a warmount so it does not offer any protection per se.

I would say the idea was more to combine some aspects of a warmount and some from the host armor.

But yeah when riding a warmount it amounts to about the same thing.

_________________
"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:37 am
  

Palladin

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depends on the warmount. the leviathan, for example, allows you to ride inside. i see absolutely no compelling reasons to believe it would be impossible for other warmounts to allow the same.

also, while most warmounts don't let you ride inside, i disagree strongly with the statement that it doesn't add protection. first off, most warmounts by the time you're done modifying them will have some automatic dodge bonuses, or at the very least, a high PP (any dodge bonuses from which will add to automatic dodge). that outrider with +15 to automatic dodge certainly doesn't feel unprotected :P also, a force field generated by the warmount should protect the rider as well (and arguably vice versa, actually). potentially, depending on the angle you're being attacked by, it can also provide cover (most likely to be the case for flying warmounts i would say, although with something like the grendel if you are on the back and are being attacked from the front, you may also have some measure of cover).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:13 pm
  

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Hero

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Actually... this isn't anything like Warmounts.

Warmounts have... at best... animal intelligence, operating more on instinct than anything else. In fact, Host Armors get something similar in the form of combat instincts. As for warmounts and outriders, I wouldn't exactly say that the two are a fusion of two minds at all... more like a pet and master working in tandem with the warmount following the Outrider's commands without question. It does what it is told to do and isn't likely to take its own initiative (even if doing so benefits them both... the animal doesn't recognize the opportunity for what it is and thus doesn't take advantage of it). It relies on the Outrider to be the "brains" of the duo.

The one biotech creation that comes closest to having a human level of intelligence are the Black Talon War Hawks. While they are utterly loyal to the Falconer they are bonded to, they will only follow the orders of others they respect (and who have shown them respect in return). They see themselves as allies with the humans... equals rather than servants or pets (and will not respect anyone who tries to treat them as such).

I would say that the intelligence of an Intelligent Host armor would be more along the lines of an advanced combat computer one would find in Power Armors... more capable than the current combat instincts at tracking and identifying targets, able to act in the pilots defense (sort of an auto-pilot feature, though it still requires a pilot to be wearing the armor). In other words... very much like how the J.A.R.V.I.S. AI is portrayed in the more recent Iron Man cartoons (Avengers) and movies.

Actually, now that I think of it, making it an upgrade to the basic combat instincts Host Armors have is probably the way I would go (not unlike how one can upgrade the natural healing/bio-regeneration of Host Armors). Basically the pilot is getting a more advanced "combat computer" installed... which requires the Host Armor to become more intelligent... possibly even developing a true consciousness/intelligence. How far this can be taken is just one of the many questions that will need to be answered (and provides great RP possibilities).

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:27 pm
  

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Champion

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... we made them smart, we made them too smart, the machines. The day Skynet became self aware was the day the human race was doomed....


go ahead and make your MDC war machine smart. see where it gets you

_________________
Look upon me and tremble ye masses. For I am The Necroposter!
keir451 wrote:
Amazing Nate; Thanks for your support!

Razzinold wrote:
And the award for best witty retort to someone reporting a minor vehicular collision goes to:
The Oh So Amazing Nate!

Nate, you sir win the internet for today! You've definitely earned the "oh so amazing" part of your name today. :lol:


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:35 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
haha :ok:

_________________
"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:00 am
  

Palladin

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the intelligence of warmounts varies from as low as 3 to as high as 10. that isn't exactly what i would call stupid at the high end. not genius level, certainly, but not stupid. furthermore, there is even an option which is not made available to most war mounts, but is made available to biotics and gore hounds that can increase IQ by as much as 6. there is no indication that it is impossible to improve other war mounts, so most likely it just isn't done and is therefore not available, but it also most likely could be.

as to not being a fusion of two minds...

"War Mounts may be commanded with words and directed by the tug of their reins, like a horse, but the link between War Mount and rider goes much farther. A direct neural interface directly links man and bio-synthetic animal ... these connectors transmit all the senses and emotions of the War Mount directly to the pilot's mind and nervous system. The neural connection makes rider and War Mount into one fighting unit operating in complete harmony and unison."

as to not being able to recognise opportunities and such:

"One might think of a War Mount's instincts as the equivalent of a biological combat computer. These instinctual drives help the augmented animal to assess relevant data (scents, sounds, etc.), detect threats, and respond accordingly."

"Most War Mounts are able to simultaneously track up to 40 targets and identify as many as 3000 enemy images, scents, and sounds."

you should spend more time familiarizing yourself with the standard features of war mounts at the start of the war mount chapter.

as to not taking initiative, every single war mount has a section that tells you what a typical range of behaviours would be for various war mounts *without their rider* (interestingly, most seem to like packmasters for some reason or other). while some of them are not interested in helping humans or fighting the machines, several feel some sense of protectiveness towards humans, and some feel a hatred of the machines. so in fact, not only can they take initiative, but we actually have information on how they will act when they do take initiative.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:12 pm
  

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Hero

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I am fully aware of the standard features of warmounts.

Yes, their instincts are the equivalent of a combat computer... not unlike the combat instincts of Host Armor (though they can only track 18 but can identify 4000 enemy images and sounds).

As for their intelligence... regardless of what it may be, it is still Animal Intelligence... which means that even at their highest level they still won't be as intelligent as a human with the same score. True the animals won't be dumb by any means, but they won't be able to grasp complex concepts. The few skills they may have are more out of instinct that actual learning.

As for the initiative... they do what they are told by the Outrider that is controlling them and generally only attack what the Outrider tells them to attack... even if they (the mount) notices a possible threat that the Outrider doesn't. They trust and obey the Outrider who had dominant control of their actions.

But enough about the warmounts as that is not the point of this thread... this is about experimenting with "human" level intelligence in Host Armor... not debating the level of intelligence in animals.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:33 pm
  

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I've never seen the full movie, but this thread reminds me of the film Star Kid....
(maybe because it's on one of the cable channels at the time I posted this.)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:40 pm
  

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never heard of this movie until now, but that cover makes me think of [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GN9dANKe_Y Astar the robot[/url]

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