Game Balance

[flatline]

I've recently seen several posters claim that the Machine is winning against the Resistance and I'm a little curious how they arrive at the conclusion.

Flipping through the book, it seems like the Resistance has the advantage in absolutely everything with the sole exception of numbers.

The Houses have technology for comfortably living deep underground where the Machine's troops can't follow without losing contact with the Machine.

A basic host armor without ANY enhancements is roughly equivalent stat-wise with a Steel Trooper and has basic regeneration and superior intellect (unless one of the Seven is directly involved). Careful selection of Enhancements quickly makes a single low level host armor more than a match for 4-6 Steel Troopers and a mid-level host armor easily comparable to the Machines toughest robots (ignoring numerical advantages, of course).

Biocomms allow perfect communication without any risk of interception by the Machine.

Stealth Field renders the host armor almost perfectly undetectable unless out in the open where radar becomes effective.

Regeneration allows host armor shrug off damage between engagements.

Limited robot intelligence allows simple tactics to be effective.

It just seems to me that unless the Dreadguards are allowing themselves to be drawn into engagements where they are significantly outnumbered, they should be tromping all over the forces of the Machine. The only real challenge would be the forces of the other houses.

Am I missing something?

--flatline

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Numbers. Numbers. Numbers.

One lost human represent decades of time and invested resources on top of whatever bio-weapons were destroyed in the fight that killed them.

The Machine could lose a thousand robots for every human it killed and wouldn't be inconvenienced. It can just build more, even from the scraps of the destroyed robots lost killing that human.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, never underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.

the machine may not be about to imminently crush the resistance right now this very instant, but that doesn't mean the resistance is doing well.

the machine is stated to have something like millions of robots all stored away just waiting to get activated... NEXUS literally has more robots than they know what do with.

in any sort of straight-up fight, the machine will win because of superior numbers. *vastly* superior numbers. you destroy one robot, no problem, 5 more are coming out of the assembly line in the next minute and going into storage because they just aren't even needed at the moment. and that's at just one of the many factories where they're produced.

bear in mind, the machine has nanobots that can take a spoon and turn it into a functioning robot that will try to kill humans it perceives, including rudimentary AI. it can go from SDC spoon to being a robot with limbs, MDC armor, MD weapons, and at least some degree of sensory capabilities. and it goes from spoon to combat drone in 30-75 seconds, in a non-controlled environment, using multi-function nanobots. what do you think it can do if you dump a pile of robot scraps into a pool full of dedicated construction nanobots in a factory? you could probably just have a 20 foot deep tube where the nanobots stay inside, drop some metal in the top, and by the time it reaches the bottom less than two seconds later, a brand new shiny steel trooper lands on the ground while little bits of particulate matter that used to be impurities rain all around it.

mind you, that's not an accurate reflection of what *real* nanobots would likely be able to do, but extrapolating from the crazy things that NEXUS can do with their magical (not literally) nanobots, it wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that the factory is just a chute where you dump in raw materials and robots fall out the other end.

[flatline]

But does the Resistance even need to destroy the armies of the Machine at this point to be successful?

Right now it seems that the Resistance is in a resource acquisition phase where the goals are to:
1. increase their numbers (make babies faster than people are dying off)
2. improve their technology base (acquire useful DNA so the engineers can make stuff that improves the standard of living or enhances military capability)

Since the Machine can't effectively touch the underground cities directly, 1 is just a matter of procreation and kidnapping/rescuing (depending on your point of view) humans from the retro-villages on the surface.

The machines don't have any useful DNA, so attacking the machines directly does not achieve 2. Stealth missions to the Preserves seems the best way to accomplish this goal.

Basically, if the Resistance doesn't have any resources tied to the surface that require defending, there's no reason to ever engage the machine in a straight fight. Right?

--flatline

[The Galactus Kid]

The resistance is surviving. That is about as good as they can muster right now. Guerilla tactics are what they thrive on, but they are woefully outnumbered and outgunned.

As for the rest of the points made here, there is a lot of great material.

[Guy_LeDouche]

The resistance is surviving. That is about as good as they can muster right now. Guerilla tactics are what they thrive on, but they are woefully outnumbered and outgunned.

As for the rest of the points made here, there is a lot of great material.

Humanity is on the ropes, no doubt about it. If the Machine brought its full military might to bear, entire Houses would fall with relative ease. As the main book is currently written, humanity is at a severe numerical disadvantage. The Machine has millions (if not billions) of troops at her disposal. Humanity’s largest known House, the Great Barren Marshes, has a population of about 230,000. Assume that roughly a quarter of the population is combat ineffective and you’ve got roughly 180,000 troops. If the Machine truly wanted to, most of humanity could be wiped out in a matter of months; perhaps even weeks. Stand up fights against the Machine are tantamount to suicide, no matter how powerful PCs or the House may think they are. Not even including possible nukes, biological, space based, and/or microwave weapons the Machine posses, it’s a simple matter of numbers.

In any case where Machine forces are encountered, PCs should know they only have a few minutes to do damage and leave. Most of the time, some sort of reinforcement is usually 10 or so minutes away. Hit and run (or “Shoot and Scoot”) is the name of the game. I have yet to have a large numbers of Machine forces appear in my adventures. Tackling a patrol of Steel Troopers, with the ever present threat of timely reinforcements, should be a challenge even for experienced PCs.

[Shark_Force]

yeah, one of the things to understand is that NEXUS isn't really *trying* to kill humanity at the moment. they're toying with humanity, like a cat playing with a mouse.

you really thinking being underground prevents the machine from simply establishing radio towers along underground tunnels, guarded by substantial forces?

in a world with MDC weaponry, do you really think NEXUS is incapable of creating a tunnel thousands of feet deep in a short period of time, probably less than a few hours?

and really, do you think NEXUS doesn't have the ability to use seismology to find pretty much every cave large enough to hold a human city, and map the tunnels leading to it?

humanity is not in good shape. humanity is in a position where they can desperately scramble to eventually get into a good position, because the machine isn't focused on killing them and may be caught off-guard in the event of humanity all acting together to resist *effectively* instead of being splintered into dozens or hundreds of groups which don't share technology or resources.

if the machine got serious about killing humanity in the splicers setting, humanity would be in serious trouble. lucky for humanity, only about 3/7 of NEXUS really even care about it at all, and of those three, one is happy with the current state of things that lets her toy with humanity (and would be disappointed to lose her toy), another just wants to design and make cool stuff that *could* kill humans and doesn't care if it ever gets used, and the third views it as more of a wargame than as a direct goal (and is currently too annoyed with the others for not caring about her wargames to keep working on killing humanity). of the remaining 4, 3 to some extent care (but only because they feel humanity interferes with things that *do* care about sometimes) and one explicitly wants humanity to survive and even thrive.

in 100 years? well, humanity may be in a position of strength. maybe. if they're sneaky about it.

right now? no way.

[flatline]

No need for radio towers. Each Steel Troop can act as a repeater for those up ahead of him. As long as the chain of line-of-sight troopers isn't broken, there's no reason that the deepest trooper couldn't remain in contact with the Machine.

Of course, a simple counter to this would be to insure that some part of the cave system is underwater. Radio would be pretty useless in that case and if the water is sufficiently dirty, even laser communication would be blocked. The only real solution is to run a cable through the submerged distance connecting two steel troopers (or whatever you're using as the repeaters).

--flatline

[ffranceschi]

No need for radio towers. Each Steel Troop can act as a repeater for those up ahead of him. As long as the chain of line-of-sight troopers isn't broken, there's no reason that the deepest trooper couldn't remain in contact with the Machine.

Of course, a simple counter to this would be to insure that some part of the cave system is underwater. Radio would be pretty useless in that case and if the water is sufficiently dirty, even laser communication would be blocked. The only real solution is to run a cable through the submerged distance connecting two steel troopers (or whatever you're using as the repeaters).

--flatline

There are several ways other than a simple cable to communicate underwater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicat ... submarines

[flatline]

No need for radio towers. Each Steel Troop can act as a repeater for those up ahead of him. As long as the chain of line-of-sight troopers isn't broken, there's no reason that the deepest trooper couldn't remain in contact with the Machine.

Of course, a simple counter to this would be to insure that some part of the cave system is underwater. Radio would be pretty useless in that case and if the water is sufficiently dirty, even laser communication would be blocked. The only real solution is to run a cable through the submerged distance connecting two steel troopers (or whatever you're using as the repeaters).

--flatline

There are several ways other than a simple cable to communicate underwater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicat ... submarines

Indeed. But please note that all of those are extremely low throughput making them unsuitable for the machine's purposes. Imagine trying to get the visual from a Steel Trooper over a 400 baud modem...

--flatline

[ffranceschi]

No need for radio towers. Each Steel Troop can act as a repeater for those up ahead of him. As long as the chain of line-of-sight troopers isn't broken, there's no reason that the deepest trooper couldn't remain in contact with the Machine.

Of course, a simple counter to this would be to insure that some part of the cave system is underwater. Radio would be pretty useless in that case and if the water is sufficiently dirty, even laser communication would be blocked. The only real solution is to run a cable through the submerged distance connecting two steel troopers (or whatever you're using as the repeaters).

--flatline

There are several ways other than a simple cable to communicate underwater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicat ... submarines

Indeed. But please note that all of those are extremely low throughput making them unsuitable for the machine's purposes. Imagine trying to get the visual from a Steel Trooper over a 400 baud modem...

--flatline

Unsuitable? Yes, but they are enough to launch a coordinated attack underwater.

[flatline]

No need for radio towers. Each Steel Troop can act as a repeater for those up ahead of him. As long as the chain of line-of-sight troopers isn't broken, there's no reason that the deepest trooper couldn't remain in contact with the Machine.

Of course, a simple counter to this would be to insure that some part of the cave system is underwater. Radio would be pretty useless in that case and if the water is sufficiently dirty, even laser communication would be blocked. The only real solution is to run a cable through the submerged distance connecting two steel troopers (or whatever you're using as the repeaters).

--flatline

There are several ways other than a simple cable to communicate underwater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicat ... submarines

Indeed. But please note that all of those are extremely low throughput making them unsuitable for the machine's purposes. Imagine trying to get the visual from a Steel Trooper over a 400 baud modem...

--flatline

Unsuitable? Yes, but they are enough to launch a coordinated attack underwater.

That all depends on what you have in mind when you say "coordinated attack".

--flatline

[ffranceschi]

That all depends on what you have in mind when you say "coordinated attack".

--flatline

I was thinking in the lines of a simultaneous suicide nuke attack! It's the only way to be sure...

[flatline]

That all depends on what you have in mind when you say "coordinated attack".

--flatline

I was thinking in the lines of a simultaneous suicide nuke attack! It's the only way to be sure...

I'm quite certain could work just using timers. Radio contact or no.

--flatline

[ffranceschi]

That all depends on what you have in mind when you say "coordinated attack".

--flatline

I was thinking in the lines of a simultaneous suicide nuke attack! It's the only way to be sure...

I'm quite certain could work just using timers. Radio contact or no.

--flatline

Radio contact gives NEXUS the versatility to react to different changing conditions, like an ambush before reaching the target. Actually, modern military still relies heavy on Radio contact. The "timer thing" is very risky. Remember the famous German, Helmuth von Moltke the Elder (1800 -1891), that first coined the phrase 'no plan survives contact with the enemy'.

[cornholioprime]

I've recently seen several posters claim that the Machine is winning against the Resistance and I'm a little curious how they arrive at the conclusion.

Flipping through the book, it seems like the Resistance has the advantage in absolutely everything with the sole exception of numbers.

The Houses have technology for comfortably living deep underground where the Machine's troops can't follow without losing contact with the Machine.

A basic host armor without ANY enhancements is roughly equivalent stat-wise with a Steel Trooper and has basic regeneration and superior intellect (unless one of the Seven is directly involved). Careful selection of Enhancements quickly makes a single low level host armor more than a match for 4-6 Steel Troopers and a mid-level host armor easily comparable to the Machines toughest robots (ignoring numerical advantages, of course).

Biocomms allow perfect communication without any risk of interception by the Machine.

Stealth Field renders the host armor almost perfectly undetectable unless out in the open where radar becomes effective.

Regeneration allows host armor shrug off damage between engagements.

Limited robot intelligence allows simple tactics to be effective.

It just seems to me that unless the Dreadguards are allowing themselves to be drawn into engagements where they are significantly outnumbered, they should be tromping all over the forces of the Machine. The only real challenge would be the forces of the other houses.

Am I missing something?

--flatline

The ONLY thing saving the humans of the Splicers setting from being utterly annihilated, is

A]] Several entities within N.E.X.U.S. want them to stay alive for sport and other reasons;

and

B]] The 'peaceful' entities outnumber those entities within N.E.X.U.S. who just want to get it over with.

If it weren't for the Black Discs, the humans wouldn't have any hope at all.