uncertain about how Remove Curse works

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Axelmania
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uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by Axelmania »

I was reading descriptions of this 11th level spell. It involves saving vs magic, which I assume would refer to the spell strength of whatever the curse was (meaning if a characters is ever cursed, the GM should jot down it's strength for later, not just it's duration/effects, in case someone tries to remove it)

It gives a bonus to save vs magic for standard spell version, and a higher bonus for the ritual version...

What I'm wondering is, are these meant to be in addition to a character's usual save bonuses (or usual save penalties, perhaps, in rare cases) or INSTEAD OF in which case it's always either d20+5 or d20+10 and never anything else?

It's not apparent in the description but I'm wondering if any errata ever addressed it.

This seems to function differently than stuff like Negate Magic / Dispel Magic Barriers because instead of the spell saving vs magic to avoid going away, it's like it's giving the subject of a curse a 2nd chance to resist, though I'm not sure if it's them doing the 2nd resist or Remove Curse doing it, or both combined.
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drewkitty ~..~
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Re: uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

From TLotD: ET page 48, the Mortificant curse has a Spell str of 15, and has to be saved every 48 hours in the LotD.

page 49Talking about 'minor deific curses cast by mortals (at a 400 PPE cost)...."The roll to save is equal to the spell strength of the curse-maker, but never exeeds 15 or 16, and the the same number must be matched or exceeded to make a successful Remove Curse."

page 50 talking about the Mortificant curses, "The power of these god-imposed is such that the magic spell, Remove curse must be applied without benefit of the usual bonuses and a 15 or higher ( on a roll of a 20-sided die) is needed to save and be cured from a Curse of Mortification.
Similarly, the priestly power to remove curse is performed at half the usual success rate."

Of the four detailed Deific Curses in D&G pages 92-94, the two that are individual specific have details how to remove within the defining texts.

There is text in the PF2 main book about removing curses from object.

conclusion:
I would go with the following quote...

"The roll to save is equal to the spell strength of the curse-maker, but never exeeds 15 or 16, and the the same number must be matched or exceeded to make a successful Remove Curse."
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Axelmania
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Re: uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:page 50 talking about the Mortificant curses, "The power of these god-imposed is such that the magic spell, Remove curse must be applied without benefit of the usual bonuses and a 15 or higher ( on a roll of a 20-sided die) is needed to save and be cured from a Curse of Mortification.

But is "usual bonuses" the +5/+10 from spell/ritual, or also your baseline PE / OCC bonuses vs magic too?
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drewkitty ~..~
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Re: uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Remove Curse spell only acts on the curse. In other words no PE bonuses, ether of the caster or the one the curse is on, that come into play.

The "usual bonuses" the +5/+10 from spell/ritual" are a part of the spell Remove Curse. And are applied to the roll to see if the curse resisted being 'removed'. See above the quote where the '15' target number is mentioned. A bonus of +5, when done as an invocation, gives the spell a 50-50 change (at very least) of removing the curse with a strength of 15.. The +10, when done as a ritual, to the roll gives a 75% chance of removing a curse with a strength of 15. In the text of the spell there is no provision to add anything else to this die roll.

(commentary: the only thing that is ""plausibly"" avalible to add to this die roll would be the bonus to the casting magic user's spell strength. Which for a Level Four Wizard would amount to +2. To add the spell str. bonus would be a House Rule. And I do not advocate this option.)

Now to explain the quote you quoted. For the Mortificant curses from the Land of the Damned, the roll to see if the curse resists being removed is made with a strait die roll. Without Any bonuses. Thus there is only a 25% chance the remove curse spell will be effective.

Remove Curse Math notes:
For curses with a Str. of 12: inv.: 35% failure rate. Ritual: 10% failure rate.
For curses with a Str. of 13: inv.: 40% failure rate. Ritual: 15% failure rate.
For curses with a Str. of 14: inv.: 45% failure rate. Ritual: 20% failure rate.
For curses with a Str. of 15: inv.: 50% failure rate. Ritual: 25% failure rate.
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Axelmania
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Re: uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Remove Curse spell only acts on the curse. In other words no PE bonuses, ether of the caster or the one the curse is on, that come into play.


So basically in the case of NM or RC it is effectively the counter-spell which is making the 2nd savings throw roll, rather than the magic's original target or the caster of the counter-spell?
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Re: uncertain about how Remove Curse works

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Remove Curse spell only acts on the curse. In other words no PE bonuses, ether of the caster or the one the curse is on, that come into play.


So basically in the case of NM or RC it is effectively the counter-spell which is making the 2nd savings throw roll, rather than the magic's original target or the caster of the counter-spell?


Remove Curse only effects the Curse that is targeted. There is only one d20 die roll when removing a curse from a person.

The term 'second saving throw' has nothing to do with the mechanics.

Time line example
Cursed person finds a mage that knows the remove curse spell.
Mage casts Remove curse.
Roll a D20, add any bonuses.
Did the total of the roll beat the spell str of the curse caster? y/n
If no, curse is still there.
if yes, no more curse.

Negate Magic uses the same mechanic, but with replacing the word curse with the word magic.
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