Forums of the Megaverse®

So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

You just keep thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at.

For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...

I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

I like this enough that I am going to make it an official item in my games!

Crown of Xipe Totec
This horrific necromatic creation is the flayed and preserved of a Tattooed person that has been sewn into a cloak and is attached to a helm formed out of the victims skull!
PPE to merge: 100
The necromancer gains 20 MDC+1 per tattoo on the skin, the ability to speak the T-mans languages... and most horrifically they can use the tattoos as if they were their own! Level of the tattoo is one half that of the victim.

That is dark and evil, but I love it.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.

The same way that a necromancer can cast the spells that a person knew.
Or gain their languages.
Or use their skills.
Or access their memories.
Because necromancy lets you access bits of their soul/PPE.
When you merge with the dead, while the merge is active, it is in some ways as if the thing is alive again in a limited fashion... and a part of you.
There are reasons that most people find Necromancers to be horribly squicky individuals and that the art is considered foul and dark. And this sort of thing is one of the reasons why. The core premise of the art involves tampering with souls and life forces.

Given Statements in WB2 and WB21 though I find it unlikely this would work.
pg.85-WB2 "... can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed." and bit later "Removing layers of skin does not work as the tattoos are linked to the potential psyhic energy and essence of the individual and only reappear."

This to me reads like, a necromancer could take the skin/limb off, but the magic tattoos do not go with them as the link is severed.

The Necromancer's link comes across as "possession", which is called out numerous times to be a blocked off. So even if the link wasn't severed, which is unlikely IMHO, it couldn't be activated.

Two points. "the whole section of skin" is not "layers of skin" but more to the point...

When you kill the guy and take their entire skin and skull. At that point you are not taking just a swatch of skin your taking their entire skin and their essence.

I agree that just taking a bit of skin like the first idea wouldn't work. But that is why the idea ended up with a full skin cloak + Skull combo. Unless there is something elsewhere that says that Tattoo magic is some how special and that it some how is exempt from the usual rules of necromancy?
Because if you have the full skin + skull you have their essence and access to their entire magic... aka you have their tattoos.
Technically you don't even need their skin. Rules As Written just bonding the skull will cause the tattoos to appear on your skin for your use for the duration of the bond, that whole "the tattoos will reappear" thing.
But that isn't nearly as creepy thus I added the skull for added squick.

eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.

It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.

As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose.
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way.

A Necro-Tech could make this item usable by others?

I don't think it will matter if they are lesser or greater SN. The only person who can use Tattoo magic is the person for whom it was intended (WB2 states this is 3 different places alone, a possessing entity can not activate/cancel T-magic, and there are examples in WB12 of symbiotic links with limitations on who can access what). The death of the T-man will also destroy the link connecting their potential psychic energy and essence with the tattoo themselves since the T-man's PPE would be released upon death.

Use of Tattoo magic will also incur some other issues. Does the Necromancer pay x2 the PPE cost for being a non-T-man? Is Tattoo Magic even compatible with the Necromancer abilities (for 7 or more tattoos would cancel out necromancer abilities, but without those abilities the necromancer can't use T-magic creating a paradox)? Just how many Magic Tattoos would appear? (all or limited to the sections taken from the T-man). T-magic can only be used by certain races, what if the Necromancer them-self is not a member of that small selection of races? (and if they are how does bonding with limbs from other races impact how the magic sees them, do they still retain human status for example if they also bonded to a Tiger's paw?)

There are a lot of thorny areas and the easiest explanation is that a Necromancer can't access T-magic, even if they bond with appropriate body parts.

Oh my yes in deed, it will matter vastly if they are lesser or greater.
If they are greater then they are just that... Greater Beings. Just like greater demons! In fact they become identical in every way that matters... and thus their skulls work just the same... including allowing the use of their magic in every way, shape and form.

And once again, this is not possession, nor is this symbiosis nor any other non-equivalent example.
Possessing entities and symbionts and other non-similar things do not gain access to, and the full use of, use of the hosts full magic powers.
Necromancers do.
Full Stop.
When the text says "all magical powers" that means "all magical power"
Again, Full Stop
This includes tattoos... unless we are to argue that tattoos are not a magical power of the T-Man.


For the duration of the merge who ever the skull is bonded to would effectively *be* a T-man would be the way I would run it (since
other wise they would have Tattoo magic and their other magic, and I think that is a no-no.
I say this because the definition of T-man is "has seven or more tattoos". No more no less. There is no "training period" or any other sort of qualifier. T-man status is a binary state with a threshold status. If Tattoo Less than 7 then Not T-Man. If Tattoo equal to 7 or more, then T-Man.
And if they now have 7 or more tattoos (which they have to because they are using the skull) that means that for the duration by the rules they are a T-man.


That isn't a paradox in the slightest. It doesn't say that it cancels spells that the mage has running if they get another tattoo... the idea that this would happen is absurd.
Thus it simply means that if the Necromancer uses it on themselves, for the duration of the meld they are a T-man and can't use other powers.


All of them. The wording of the power is explicit "all magic possessed by the victim at half their level"
All means all.


That will be a GM call on a case by case.
There are two interpretations for the GM to choose from.
1) that the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... as seen from the point of the T-man. Thus if you use the skull of an Elf you get the weaker versions that the elf had and all that. And that thus you are using the soul/life force of the T-man via the skull as your interface and they work for whom ever it is bonded to. This has extensive president actually since the skulls allow the use of other restricted magic such as warlock spells, racial spells, clerical spells, and all other magic powers of the victim with no limitations or restrictions provided which is a pretty big deal when your talking about greater supernatural creatures and gods.
Or
2) That the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... but it is up to you to be able to 'interface' with it properly. Thus the skulls are only of use to the appropriate races (there is no canon support for this, but a GM who wishes to limit necromancers can go with this). This of course will then result in most of the best skulls getting nerffed as the GM just house-ruled away access to warlock magic, clerical magic, and all the other rare highly limited specialized and restricted magical powers that are often sought out.


The idea that "well, this looks complicated... so I am just going to ignore part of your class powers because it is simpler" is one of the worst possible reasons to assume that a power doesn't work. Especially in Palladium where everything is complicated already.
And especially since all the 'thorny areas' you presented aren't thorny at all and are, in fact, less of an issue that the basic power that is being used itself!

It works because it connects with the underlying technology of all things Palladium: it's cool.

Logical sense is greatly over-rated in dealing with Palladium magic. "It's really cool" is a far better guiding principal.

Can't argue with the rule of cool directly, but have you considered some of other variables involved?


Actually this will be the case with a lot of aspects for this:
-what level of SN creature does a T-Man represent (lesser, greater, some other unknown categorization level), Chiang-Ku Dragon is already covered by "Dragon Skull" (but the rest is still a GM call)
-PPE Cost (pay at T-man rate or non-T-man rate)
-Magical Compatibility
-number of tattoos to appear
-racial issue
-does the link between the tattoos and the T-man's essence/PPE remain after death (obviously resurrection restores it, but the Necromancer ability isn't really resurrection)
-can they even activate the Tattoos (sure they might know how to use them, but they may still not be able to activate them as each magic tattoo is essentially biometricly locked)
-would the necromancer take damage for receiving each magic tattoo this way (WB2 pg84)? If they take damage (along with recovery/sideeffects, even if the tattoos don't last) and all tattoos appear just a regular T-man would inflict over 36d6 to SDC/HP (36-216 points minimum, 126 average), T-monster, Maxi-men, Undead Slayer classes will be more).

Given the level of GMs call in this matter...


WB2 pg 93 "... trained in the use of the tattoos..." (Tattoo Man OCC)


It is a paradox. It is a GMs call if it cancels other active magic or not.

And how many mages would have spells running when they get a Tattoo (by normal means, they can get a few and not be T-men)? The books don't say how long it takes to get the magic tattoo (AFAIK), but it can't be fast.

This is a binary status.
Lesser or Greater pick one. There is no other category (barring house rules).
And I already pointed out the results of both choices. GMs can pick which one they want in their game and do that.


They are indeed!
Which right there means that this works.
Since canon already states that we can get tattoos via skull ritual. So there is no longer any question of "if". It is already canon that it works.
So that right there removes all the "if" questions.
The only question then is what happens once you do it.


There is nothing to decide.
They are T-men.
Full stop.
The entire definition of T-man is "has 7 or more tattoos". While this is in effect the subject has 7+ tattoos. Ergo they are T-men. It isn't hard.


There is no compatibility issue.
None.
The Power is pretty cut and dried. Mystic Russia page 89.
Gains all the magical powers of the creature.
That is pretty clear cut.
There is no "if compatible"
there is no "Unless the magic is Tattoos"
There is no "except for certain cases"
It is a blanket universal all statement. All means all.


Again Mystic Russia page 89
All of them. That isn't up for debate. The text says you get "all the creatures magical powers" that means you get all their magical powers. All of them.
All means all.


There is no racial issue. Unless of course you are going to try and argue that necromancers should also be held to racial issues and class issues for all the other magic that they steal...
...and which point the entire point of the power is nullified.
Seriously. Because, once again Mystic Russia page 89. The power gives you "all that creatures magical powers". If you do not actually get all of the creatures magical powers, then that is a house rule changing the written text.
Full Stop.
This isn't hard.


Again, not a question
The link between the tattoos and the skull exists.
Full stop.
We know this because the necromancer can, explicitly, access your magic via your skull.
Again full stop.
Thus there is a link to your magic (symbolicly at least) via your skull that a necromancer can use as a link to connect to and use your magic.
The power is pretty explicit. How do we know? Yet again we turn to Mystic Russia page 89. You gain "all the magical abilities of the creature"
Checklist time.
Are tattoos magical abilities? Yes
Were they a magical ability of the skull donor? yes
then there is a link that provides them.
Just like there is a link that provides Warlock spells. Or Biomancy Spells. Or Shaman Spells. Or Priest Spells. Or Soulmancy spells. Or Witch spells. Or Mystic Bestowed Super Abilities. Or any other form of magic abilities you care to name.


Again, No question.
The text is explicit that the necromancer has full access to the magic.
Not "the magic is there but can not be used"


No of course not.
They are not 'getting them' they are borrowing them.
They would no more take the damage then they would need to meditate on ley lines to gain the spells of a mystic. Or pay the gaining costs of any other class.
The T-man paid the price of the magic already, the Necromancer is just tapping into their soul to steal it.
More to the point. The Necromancer is gaining the magical powers, not the tattoos themselves.
The tattoos are not bonding to the Necromancers soul.


Is there some reason that you are opposed to this?
I ask because you keep trying to come up with reasons why this won't work.
Reasons that require that we ignore the written text of how the necromancer abilities work and assume that they do not actually work as written.
Or reasons that require the GM to make up a house rule to even exist in the first place!
Reasons that even when they are refuted you continue to restate instead of attempting to address the refutation.
Is there some reason that you are opposed to necromancers getting access to more tattoo magic since they already canonically can from Chaing-Ku skulls with absolutely no problems what so ever, so this would just expand the options, assuming that the Gm rules T-men are greater supernatural beings so as to avoid the limitations imposed on lesser beings.


Sadly that is not the only qualifier.
The cost break applies to anyone who has 7+ tattoos. Ergo having 7+ tattoos gets you the cost break.
Especially since, by canon, getting the 7th tattoo instantly turns a person into a T-man. On the spot. Instantly. No training period needed.


Only if the GM is making up a house rule to change the written text.
Seriously. There is nothing in Tattoo magic that says it negates ongoing spells. Nothing.
I challenge you to provide a text citation that says it negates a non-maintained spell. Please note that as there are some pretty long lasting spells out there, some of which are designed to be curses that are almost impossible to remove with out the caster lifting it... I find it unlikely that there is a free, unmentioned loophole that gets people out of these curses... but is not even written into the text!
Especially since the only canon way to end spells is for the caster to end it (they no longer can) or use negation magic (this is not negation magic this is blocking the caster)


Considering that there are dozens of spells out there with durations of years, decades, or even "life of the caster unless canceled" I would say that yes it would be a pretty relevant issue.
The fact that the canon says nothing about adding this totally unstated (and very powerful and frankly unique) feature to tattoo magic speaks volumes.
If there were an ability to cancel all spells that the mage had ever cast in their lifetime, such as familiar link, sanctums, long duration curses, transformations, clones, various summoning spells, living spells, friends in the head, soul jars, created undead, et multiple cetera... one would think that such a vastly powerful ability (seriously! some of the spells that this would negate include curses that are tricky for gods to lift!) would get at least a passing mention in at least one of the books that have talked about tattoo magic over the years.
But as it is, not a peep.
We have, in fact, gotten the opposite. We have a specific list of what the explicit side effects of tattoos are. Which tells us that side effects that are not on the list are not things that happen.

There is a certain reverence I have noticed among players for Tattoo Magic. The idea that it is sacrosanct and cannot be perverted. I think this has arisen, at least in part, due to how it is presented in the books. The limits on race, the super secret nature of knowledge about how to create the tattoos, etc. Because of this, I'm not at all surprised that there is vehement opposition to this idea. Personally, while I wouldn't want a player to have it (I prefer Necromancy to be a tool of NPC villains), I do like the idea and find it to be clever and cool. I would definitely consider outfitting a villain with such an item. As a player, I think I would be terrified to encounter such a monster.

I agree it is binary state, but PB does at times avoid clarifying which category they fall under which could suggest a third state (or its supposed to be obvious which one, but if it was obvious the SN category for a T-man wouldn't be indoubt).


Except these Dragons are thought to be extinct (they aren't). So a Necromancer finding a skull of one is unlikely. I don't think that canon states they get tattoos, they get the knowledge yes, but not the tattoos themselves (see below).


The text makes it clear this stuff is permanent unless the limb is removed. If as you say ALL tattoos appear, then they would appear on non-borrowed parts to and by extension be there permanently. If the tattoos aren't really there, then the Necromancer can't actually touch them to activate. Remember it takes a 7th level Tattoo man to activate without touch. Using a Chiang-ku Dragon Skull they can't (fixed at 5th level), SN Skull would require the T-man to have been Level 14 or 15 since the Necromancer casts at 1/2 their proficiency (so level 13/2=6.5) making it very unlikely. And we don't even know if the T-man skull qualifies as powerful enough (WB4 equates the power level to gods/godlings/greater demon/demon-lord as examples, which IMHO the T-man is not on this level).

The spontaneous appearance of the tattoos is also in question given:
-appearing on other parts of the body (not from the T-man) would be unique for the necromatic ability. A Dragon Skull doesn't cause you to sprout wings, claws, tail, etc from that race. Or any identifying marks from the creature. So if all you have is the literal skull (or even just the head w/o tattoos) it doesn't look like they would appear (per text a dead limb still looks like a dead limb). If the T-Man's hide is also included it would have to be attached to the skull, as I don't see a section for hides in WB4 (horns, claws, limbs yes, hide/skin no).
-if a T-man loses a limb, they obviously lose the tattoos. Text makes it clear that a Bio-System Cyber Limb replacement doesn't cause new tattoos to appear since this is one option to get rid of tattoos for a normal spell caster. Bio-Systems don't interfere with T-man's abilities (T-man OCC can get Bio-System cybernetics that don't interfere with casting, unlike mechanical ones). Further supporting the idea that the tattoos would not just appear due to the link/borrow/possession.

Then there is the question if they can actually activate the T-Man's tattoos. A possessing entity can't "borrow" a T-Man's body and activate Tattoo magic because it is keyed to the specific person it was given to, allowing Necromancy to circumvent this ("borrowing" body parts) has other ramifications in dealing with magic keyed to specific individuals. Is a Necromancer who bonds with a Dragon Skull (for example) able to give commands to any Golem/Zombie/Mummie that Dragon created as if they are that person? What if the Dragon had a Sealed Circle that only he/she could enter? What if the Dragon was a Diabolist, is the Necromancer now immune to the dragon's Wards to? I'm sure there are other examples out there.


Going by the text in WB2 though this implies there is a training period even if you have less than 7. You couldn't give a Cyber-Knight a magic tattoo (just one) and expect them to instantly be able to use it, they do have to be trained. This is supported by the TA RCC/Race writeup in WB2 (pg16) "All Atlanteans are thought how to use their tattoos.", since all/common TAs have their marks of heritage pair...

The problem is Necromancers don't "Slap it onto their body", their power actually bonds with it and makes it a part of their own body, hence why it's called "Union with the dead" and not "draw power from dead body parts". Which means that once they Unify with it, they'd get slapped with the same no-magic-after-7-tattoos rule, which would either cause the Union with the dead to shut off and the attached body parts fall off, or make them stuck with it unless they physically remove it again.

Don't get me wrong, it's a clever idea! but based on re-reading the actual Union with the dead power, and how it specifically becomes physically and mystically part of the Necromancer i'd say not that you couldn't bond with a T-man's limbs, but that it wouldn't work as a workaround. it's just a way to get a bunch of tattoos quickly and you still loose Necromancer magic until you probablly physically cut off the T-man body part in question.

Unless the body part has 6 or less, in which case, clever thinking!

Not really.
Most supernatural beings are not clarified.
Seriously let me restate that. The majority of supernatural beings are not stated if they are greater or lesser.
Not even all demons are clearly marked.
Thus the idea that the lack of a label on this one supernatural being means that they are outside the normal rules is absurd.


The whole "thought to be extinct" thing appears to have been retconned away (sort of like how for a 'dying races' there sure seem to be a lot of Atlantians... )
Seriously. That didn't last past WB3
It also doesn't rule out finding the skulls.


Sigh
Again, you are changing the power.
This is not applying Tattoos to the person.
It is stealing the power of someone else's Tattoos.
You keep conflating the two
Thus they are not permanent (unless you are claiming that using this skull will instantly and permanently turn people into T-men. In which case level 8 Necromancers are going to be churning out T-men left and right..)


Again you seem to be going out of your way to invent ways to prevent something from working. Ways that require that we ignore the listed power.
yes, for the duration the tattoos are there. And then they go away.
This is what it means to 'have the power'
We know that the tattoos can magically appear on flesh and disappear. Thus guess what? They magically appear while the power is active and disappear when it deactivates.


Again you are making up limitations that are not part of the system to address a problem that does not exist.
It does not matter what their level is. They can simply touch their tattoos that will be right there on the skin.
The tattoos will no more not be there than they will be missing from a T-man put in a new clone body.


It grants you the magic.
Full stop.
Seriously. It grants you the magic.
The tattoos are the magic.
Ergo it grants you the magic tattoos (temporarily).
Again full stop.
This isn't hard.
Claws are not magic. Wings are not magic. Thus they are not granted.
Things which are not part of the power are not granted as part of the power. Things that are part of the power, always are. That is quite literally how the rules work. Magic is granted, non-magic is not granted.

Again you seem to be insisting that things that are not part of the power are reasons why the power doesn't work.


Again this has nothing to do with the Necromancer though and is thus irrelevant.
Apples to kumquats.
Seriously, this is totally completely and utterly irrelevant. (and yet again of another example of what I was talking about)
The tattoo comes back if the arm does. Which means that it is still there 'in potentiality' which means that when you snag that sweet sweet skull and us it... then that the skull 'knows' what magic was available, even if the arm was not present at the time of death the tattoo is still 'inscribed on the soul' so to speak.


And yet again you are conflating two different things here.
This is use of the magic of a person (their tattoo magic).
Your continued insistence that this is some how prevented because possessing entities can't use tattoos is absurd. Possessing entities can't cast your spells either and yet with the skull you can this means that flat out this is not at all remotely like possession and thus the limits of possession do not apply in any way, shape or form. Possessing Entities have as much relevance here as the inability of full conversion cyborg Minotaur to get Tattoos. Which is none, so could you please stop bringing them up? They are a red herring and/or straw man and simply make your arguments weaker not stronger.

The reason for this is because the magic is tied to the persons essence, not the body. And the skull gives you that magic what ever it was that the person had as 'their magic' you have it now. Regardless if it was spells, or witchery powers, or granted super abilities... or tattoos. as long as it was a magic power it's fair game. Necromancers are the ultimate "What ever is yours is mine" type people.

It is not like the golems, because it is not keyed the same way. Seriously it is not. It is an enhancement that provides the caster magic powers and not the creation of a separate magic item. It is in many ways no different than an initiation ritual, a witch pact, or one of the several power granting rituals in the game...
Seriously this isn't hard at all, not really.
Where are Tattoos described and what are they described as? Are they listed as magic items or under magic powers?
If they are magic items that are uniquely locked to an individual this would attach. If they are listed as magic powers then this doesn't.
I'll wait while you find an example of Tattoos listed as magic items and not magic powers.




Again your arguing with canon.
I get that you may have a house rule here, it may even be a common one... but the canon states that get 7-tattoos, you class change to T-man. There is no canon material about training periods. No canon material about how long it takes to learn to use your tattoos, or even that you have to be taught and that it is not intuitive...
...now if you can provide a canon citation that says otherwise great! Otherwise the canon statement that simply getting 7 tattoos instantly and permanently changes your class on the spot is well sort of, no it is exactly the canon!
And I am sorry... but in a battle over how the RAW work a canon citation vs a house rule the canon citation wins every time.

As for being taught to use their tattoos. It seems to be like psi powers.
You get 'taught' to use those too... but you can also use them if you just get them too... no waiting period needed (at least officially). Likely they may be taught the most effective way to use them... which I will grant. But the idea that they have to be taught how to use them... no canon support and 100% a fanon house rule.

Why does everyone keep asuming that these tattoos are going to shut off the Union with the Dead?
It Is A Spell with a duration and everything. Tattoos do not do squat to spells and would do nothing to the Union power. It would simply mean that you can't use any other necromancer powers (assuming you use this on yourself and not another) while you have 7+ tattoos.
Now this would raise questions of if you can use the tattoos. I would suspect that this variation of the trick will only work on Humans/Ogres/Elves...
But still. Instant pseudo T-man could be handy in a pinch. And could make for some interesting (if horrific) arena fodder.

Adds keeping T-man limbs around to the icky things about Necromancers in Atlantis
...and yet another horrific abomination for the Re-Animator to be using.

I missed the duration, that just means that the appendage will fall off on it's own after the time instead of having to physically remove it. which is good!
I didn't say it'd shut off Union with the dead. I said It'd work. I was just under the mistaken impression it was permanent so the limbs would be permanent unless removed.

Now I'm thinking of this:

Necro: I'd like to buy your T-man slave's arm.
Sploogie: Ah, you need a strong warrior for something, eh? I'm sure we can...
Necro: No, not all of him. Just his arm.
Sploogie: Just the arm? Hmm... what will it cost me to grow him another...
T-man: (sigh) Not again.

And a new market is born.

Actually. Having slept on this and thought about it for a while.
I think that this would be an example of where Tattoos link to the owner would come into play.
The union with the dead (arm) power does not give you any magic, nor any abilities inherent to the arm... thus you would have an arm with tattoos... but they would not be Tattoos.
Only the skull of Greater Supernatural Beings, Dragons, Gods and presumably Greater Creatures of Magic, and assuming that there is a difference, Greater Creatures of Chaos grant the magic.
Thus only the skulls of a greater supernatural T-man or a Chiang-Ku dragon would allow the use of Tattoo magic.
...
Which suddenly starts to explain one of the reasons that Chiang-Ku dragons were thought to be extinct!
They were being hunted for their skulls!

Why would it be absurd, especially if its right in your own post that "most supernatural beings are not clarified" leaving us with 3 levels of SN being (lesser, greater, undeclared/average).


No I'm not changing the necromancers power.

Magic Tattoos would not appear (even temporarily) on the Necromancer's body due to the way Tattoo Magic works and the necromatic abilities work. We also know that Tattoo magic has a physical component (WB2pg83 "The tattoos do not instill magic powers or cause the usual amount of pain when applied to members of any other race.") since members of other races can get the magic tattoos with the result being ordinary tattoos (from the same procedure). That would indicate the tattoos aren't going to appear as the physical component is not present and we know that the Necromancer isn't gonig to "sprout" extra appendages as the result of merging with one appendage.

While a Necromancer may get the powers and knowledge of the being in question, that does not mean they can actually make use of said power/knowledge. A necromancer can't use the skull to make Wards (or Circle Magic) without the proper materials for example. Given that Tattoos DO HAVE a physical aspect, that results in the Necromancer having powers they can't use since that physical aspect is not in any way transferred (beyond any that might be on the limb they are borrowing). Splugorth and High Lords have knowledge of Tattoo Magic and can't use it beyond giving it to suitable subjects. The Mystic Ninja in WB8, it is possible to roll low enough PPE to be unable to use some starting abilities. Some Psychics can also theoretically roll low enough to have ISP, but not enough to activate powers (likely those with a cost of 10+ ISP, players don't have to select them obviously if they know they don't have the ISP, but it is still possible).

The Identity Lock for Tattoo Magic IS important as it sets precedent for other areas of magic that have Identity Locks. Tattoo Magic can only be activated by the person for whom the Tattoo was given, not even another T-man can activate it for them. If the Necromancer is able to get around this Identity Lock then they can get around any magical identity lock with the appropriate part (be it Golem, sealed Circle, Wards, another's Zombie/Mummie, etc). I am looking at WB4 and I see nothing about the Necromancer gaining/accessing/mixing/etc with the dead subjects essence, that appears to be a house rule (or your thinking of the Soul Harvester in WB12), which means for Identity purposes the Tattoos will remain locked.


Not a house rule, that is what the T-Man OCC states, you receive training in how to use the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that the use of tattoos is intuitive, but there is indication that it requires training:
-WB2 pg84 "touches the desired image and concentrates, focusing his P.P.E. to bring the item to life. Sometimes a simple chant is used to help with the focusing process." The chant sounds like something you'd learn, you also need learn to concentrate/focus PPE
-WB2 pg16, already mentioned
-WB2 pg93 "trained in the use of the tattoos"
-WB2 pg96 "Maxi-men are trained from infancy or childhood (most are captured children seldom older than age 9) in the arts of combat, espionage, and using magic tattoos.", later "Maxi-men are very skilled at using magic tattoos"

That's 2 OCCs (of 4 T-men specific, one of which references the T-man OCC which does mention it) that mention training in the use of tattoos, plus the True Atlantean Race description and how to activate Tattoos. It is not intuitive.

In all likelyhood it assumes you have received training when you switch to the T-Man OCC from getting 7, just like a Borg (they have an adjustment period). It should be noted that the maximum number of tattoos you can get at any one time does appear to be 2 with a waiting period (6 months) before you can receive any more (this is in the various OCCs about advancement).

Because there isn't an "average"
Everything is either lesser or greater. By the canon even sub-demons are lesser supernatural beings for example.
They just don't bother to tell us which category most things fall in.
We know there are two categories because literally every thing that talks about this tells us that, every single thing. If anything, and I mean anything at all in the game has differential effects it tells us that Lesser Beings get treated one way and that Greater Beings get treated the other. There is no "Oh, and anything that is neither is immune to all of the above" or any such nonsense.
There Is No Canonical Average Supernatural Being. It would be a house rule to create such a thing.
And house rules have no place in a discussion of the RAW.


No, you certainly are.
You are changing it in deep, fundamental ways. Mostly by trying to claim that in this one specific case that Tattoo Magic is a special snowflake and that even though it is listed as a magic power and is treated as such for literally every other purpose in the game... it is not really a magic power for purposes of necromancy.


The magic tattoos will magically reappear, because they have already been applied magically via the proper ritual and bonded to the skull.
That is after all one of the major points of Tattoo Magic. That the tattoos reappear and can not be removed. Trying to pretended that one of the primary, main key features of the magic doesn't exist seems to be, frankly, disingenuous.



Again you are trying to compare two different things.
Appendages are not at issue here. Thus your fixation there is a logical fallacy. Because trying to distract the issue with something that is not germane to the topic (appendages?) is a logical fallacy. It is as germane as moose antlers.

Other people failing to get tattoos are not at issue here, again a logical fallacy. Because this is not about those people, this is about the people that got them. So trying to distract with a different group is about as relevant as bringing up moose antlers.
The tattoos were already applied, correctly, to a proper being. That being gained magical powers, already.
That is in the past and can not be changed (short of time travel)

And to repeat an important point.
The magic tattoos will magically reappear, because they have already been applied magically via the proper ritual and bonded to the skull.
That is after all one of the major points of Tattoo Magic. That the tattoos reappear and can not be removed. Trying to pretended that one of the primary, main key features of the magic doesn't exist seems to be, frankly, disingenuous.



Bad example.
Trying to argue that not having a spell component is the same as not getting a spell is pretty absurd.
Also a bad example from the point of trying to argue that you don't get magical powers that are not spells


You appear to be deliberately ignoring the fact that magic tattoos reappear on the flesh of tattoo bearers.
There is no need to go out and get tattoos physically applied...
because again, and it bears repeating because this is a really important,key point that keeps being (apparently willfully) ignored
The magic tattoos will magically reappear, because they have already been applied magically via the proper ritual and bonded to the skull.
That is after all one of the major points of Tattoo Magic. That the tattoos reappear and can not be removed. Trying to pretended that one of the primary, main key features of the magic doesn't exist seems to be, frankly, disingenuous.



I would also point out that your example beings have the knowledge of Tattoo magic as the art, not Tattoos as a magic power.
Again, you are trying to conflate two separate things in an attempt to prove a point. That is called a "strawman" and is a logical fallacy.
Please try to keep separate things separate.
(Also irrelevant parts in spoiler)


No, they can not.
Because those are not magic powers.
You are conflating two separate things.
Magic powers and magic items.
They are not the same, and the rules that cover them are not the same.
Golems are not a "magic power". Sealed circles are not a "magic power". None of your examples are "magic powers". Tattoos though... guess what they are listed as being? Yep you guessed it, they are listed as being a magic power!

Trying to argue that the failure to use one proves the other can not be used is, frankly, the "strawman logical fallacy"


On the topic of if tattoos need to be trained


To be honest... this entire argument is pointless since it wouldn't matter in the slightest anyway. Since the skull grants you the magic!
Guess what? That means the knowledge of how to use it too.
Unless you are making up some house rule that for example, it would grant spells... but not spell casting. Or wards but not ward making. Or maybe you get breath weapons but don't know how to use them?
Sorry, I don't buy the argument that "your class power is really useless because it doesn't actually do anything usefull"
Try again.

"Here's a cool idea!"
"A cool idea! Quick, beat it to death before it escapes!"

That's my take on this thread too. It's still cool, regardless of contrary opinions.

In the defense of the thread...
...I have learned a lot about tattoo magic.
I have also learned the about Chaing-Ku dragons, Atlantians and the reasons why the Atlantians and Chaing-Ku are nearly extinct.
Pride.
In a single word. Pride.
The Atlantians have made racial foes of most of the forces of evil. They then have made it possible so that most any two bit Summoner can summon and bind their greatest champions to their doom...
Because their pride makes it impossible for them to comprehend that they do not have the power of the gods, just the arrogance of them.

The Chaing-Ku learned this lesson when their skulls became a coveted commodity (and are, frankly, the likely way that the Splugorth stole the secrets of Tattoo Magic in the first place!)

For more fun it also means that anyone with a Chaing-Ku skull can whip up some Elixir of Power and Deceit.
The law of unintended consiquences is strong with these people...
I look forward to seeing what happens next

I bet a Circle of Knowledge with a Tattoo Master's tongue would let you teach Tattoo Magic.

Careful, Mark. You'll start another argument.

Not likely. WB2 pg99 "...the monsters of Atlantis stay clear of death magic..." Suggesting it isn't a magic school they are involved in terms of actual use. There are more likely ways the Splugorth acquired the knowledge (circle magic, mind bleeders, rogue TA, etc).


The fact they don't tell us if something is lesser or greater means either:
-a third category
-it is supposed to be obvious

Keep in mind that the Necromancer OCC example you are using specifies "Skull of a power supernatural monster such as". They go on to list examples. Are T-men (or even specific classes) on the level of "gods, godlings, greater demon/being, demon lord". They certainly don't qualify as Gods, and aren't greater demons or demon lords, leaving examples of godlings or greater beings. They don't qualify as godling level either, and given the other examples on the list don't come across as "greater being". This means that what ever the Necromancer gets from the bonding with the T-man, it isn't going to come from this example.


This is wrong.

The tattoos will not magically reappear and can be removed. They only time per text they will reappear is from the removal of layers of skin, severing the limb is the only method of removing the magic tattoos (per text). Mages (and T-men in general) are also said to want to replace the lost limb with a Bio-System Cybernetic limb, but in this case the Magic Tattoo(s) does not return (nothing indicates it does).

Necromancy does not allow the creation of "bonus limbs" from joining with a single limb. So if the T-man had M-Tats on his left arm and torso, they won't appear on the T-man if he/she bonds with just the T-man's skull.


Perfectly good example. The Magic Tattoos have a physical component, much like creating Wards or Circle Magic (and Line Magic from SA2) OR using a magic weapon/item. You can have the necessary knowledge/power, but without the components you can not use it.

We have seen necromancers used by other Splugorth though so it is still a route.
But your other options are there too.


Your contortions of the rules to keep Atlantians as a special snowflake that are above the rules are simply amazing.
There is no third category. If all effects are binary choices, then you can't have three categories.
I simply chalk up the failure to list the category to the fact that the vast majority of authors don't bother to think things through.
When C.J. wrote the South America books he didn't stop to think that his Anti-Monsters and Mega-Crazies could be summoned, so he didn't bother to tell us what category they were. Nor did the authors think to tell us what Sea Titans, or Mega Juicers, or Lyn-Saral, or Guardians, or Athanos, or you know... Atlantian T-men.
You are right though... it is usually pretty obvious...
and the obvious answer is "all things are Lesser Beings unless they are specifically stated to be Greater" since they do seem to go out of their way to tell us when something is a Greater Being, and those tend to be the movers and shakers of the hierarchies...
Which means that going by the way the rules are written it would suggest that Atlantian T-men are Lesser Beings.
Which, frankly, sucks for them.
I opined that they might be Greater Beings so as to avoid the unpleasantness of PCs who are bound and limited by all the petty restrictions that affect Lesser Beings. Because make no mistake about it, Lesser Beings have a lot of limitations and a PC playing one is going to be rather annoyed at all the things that this retcon does to them. Just a partial list is below.
As Supernaturals:
Their alignment is now detectable (Supernatural Good/Supernatural Evil and by extension the lack of same)
They can be summoned and bound by Shifters
They are affected by the Level Eight spell Expel Demons
Can not be the target of the Level Ten spell Purge Other anymore
Can be tracked as a Supernatural by sensitives
Are now affected by weapons that deal extra damage to Supernatural Beings

As Lesser Beings:
They can be summoned by the Summon Lesser Being Spell.
Evil ones can be held at bay by the Third Level spell Blood Ward spell (Through the Glass Darkly)
They can not cross a Protection Circle: Simple
They can not even stand to be with in eyeshot of a Protection Circle: Superior
They can not enter a Sanctum unless they save vs magic (a lot of "good" places are listed as being Sanctums...)
They are now affected by the Level Seven spell Constrain Being
They are still affected by Life Drain
They are still affected by the Level Nine spell Aura of Doom
They can be Banished via the Level Ten spell Banishment

As Greater Beings:
They can not cross a Protection Circle: Superior
Their Skulls can be used by Necromancers
They gain the save bonuses and/or reduced penalties that several spells offer to Greater Beings

Would you like me to keep going?



I am keeping that in mind.
It is going to be up to each GM to decide if they are Lesser Beings or Greater Beings.
Either way is going to have ramifications.
Lesser beings trade Three Quarts of "not having my skull actively hunted by necromancers" for a Gallon of "sucky spell problems".
Greater beings trade in their Spell Problems for "every necromancer who lusts after my skull" And Greater Beings are Greater Beings. Thus if they are a Greater Supernatural Being they get everything that goes along with that... including a Skull that Necromancers can use.

As I said before. This Retcon is a "Damned if you do and Damned if you don't" And a great big heaping barrel of suck for the Atlantians. And that barrel gets moved to the "industrial sized storage tanks numbers 1 through 99" if it only affects Atlantians because then you can safely summon T-Men and know that your going to always get an Atlantian and not a Splugorth Slave.


Of course it doesn't Bio-Systems limbs are still, as per the book, machines. Closer to the body, and using more flesh in them and thus some how more 'magic friendly' due to what ever reason... but they are still machines.
Transfer to a clone body and your tattoos go with you.
Transfer your soul via Soulmancy to a new body forever forsaking the old one... and your tattoos go with you... because they are bonded to you, not your body but to 'you'.
Actually factually removing Tattoos is a major pain in the posterior and tends to require the use of Divine Intervention, Plotonium, or the creative use of some rather obscure OCCs to pull some interesting (if creepy) Shenanigans <tm>


And you are actually incorrect... the skulls can grant limbs. If the presence of those limbs is a magic power of the skull bearer.
Off the cuff exemplar would be the Necromancer who robs the grave of the Magic Girl Bright Sun Angel a Mega Hero (Mega-Mystic Transformation) with Awe Factor, Achilles Heel: Permanently Transformed. Powers granted: Energy Wings and Karmic Power"
Activating that skull would grant you their magical powers... and you would instantly grow Energy Wings though if you are evil I would advise that you be pretty careful due to potential Karmic backlash Good thing you didn't get the skull of their Nemesis who had Tentacles
This aside is important because of the next bit


And for the duration of the meld...
That Torso Is the Torso That The Tattoos Go With.
So yes, they will appear.
The Tattoos are the magic. The Skull gives the magic. The idea that the skull gives the magic...but not the magic is absurd.


The problem is that there are no "components" here. Seriously, there are no components.
That is my entire point.
There. Are. No. Components.
None.
The Tattoos that you keep trying to call "components" are part an parcel of the magic. They are a package deal.
The idea that they would not appear (and maybe though probably not, disappear) is simply absurd given the way that Tattoos are said to work.
Let me walk this through
Step 1 Skull is placed on subject
Step 2 Skull is Activated
Step 3 Magic in skull activates
Step 4 Subject now "has all the subjects magical powers" and is now the T-man/Dragon the subject was
Step 5 The magic, now active, recognizes the Subject as having the magic.
Step 6 The magic, notices that the tattoos are missing and they all magically reappear as per the norm for how Tattoo Magic works.
Step 7 The subject goes and does Tattoo stuff
Step 8 The Bond ends
Step 9 The magic ends
Step 10 The issue here is hazy. I would, personally, suspect that the tattoos would remain but could be removed easily with a simple application of a purge spell or the like.

Seriously.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You really can't
Thus you can't claim both that the Only magical tattoos are the ones that exist on the body of the original T-Man
AND
At the same time claim that those tattoos lose their magic upon death.
It doesn't work that way you see.
Because the skull activates the magic and now, because of how the magic works... there have to be Tattoos that go with the magic. There have to be Tattoos because that is a definition of the Magic Power that the skull granted.
And this is pretty much a given since we know that the T-man can't escape their Tattoos by any means what so ever... so the idea that the Necromancer who is trying to get the Tattoos can't get what the T-man can't escape, by using identical processes... well it fails the logic test.
If having the magic means that the Tattoos appear on you body la-de-da-de everybody no matter what you can't escape this... then it means just that that the Tattoos appear on your body if you have the magic.
Tattoo Magic is not a snowflake that is somehow the one magic in the game immune to Necromancy. Now this is Palladium so it is possible that a future canon update will make it immune... but for now immunity is only granted via GM invoking Rule Zero.

It is, but still not one they actively engage in themselves. The CS has a similiar thing going for Service Sepcialists listed in WB11 (they rarely/seldom hire mages and D-bees, two groups you would not think the CS would get involved with even in this manner given their policies).


That though is part of the problem. It isn't really a GM call where the T-Man falls in relation for a Necromancer to use their remains. The text for the Necromancer power lists examples of what it considers suitable "powerful supernatural monsters", and T-men don't seem to fit the bill for that level of actual supernatural power.


Source for the Clone Body and Magic Tattoos? Because it isn't in the Book of Magic, WB2 or WB21. WB2 even notes (pg35) "True Atlanteans can have limbs replaced and even be completely cloned. However, clones do not have the 'Marks of Heritage' (magic tattoos) or the extra P.P.E. they provide." Seems pretty clear that cloned limbs or even a new body won't bring magic tattoos back.

Removing Tattoos is actually easy, you remove the limb and replace it (might get expensive). You don't need devine intervention level stuff.


No it is not absurd. We know that some magic requires components (Wards, Circles) to fucntion. Tattoo magic is just another example that has a physical component. A Necromancer (assuming they could, not all meet the supernatural requirement) isn't going to be able to use all the powers of:
-a Nazca Rune Warriorr OCC (SA2) since it would require physical objects (Staff) or painting the symbols on their person.
-Nor will they establish a Link to an Automaton if they bond with a Controller OCC (WB16)
-Stone Master's Gem Powers or Pyrmaid derived powers (unless of course those objects are readily available)


Except we know they have physical aspects. WHEN the ritual is performed on non-suitable races it still creates a Tattoo, it just is not magical. This means there is a physcial component.

Level 6 and below T-men are also required to touch the Tattoo Image to activate, touch requires physical contact which means the image is physical. Level 7 and above T-men can do it by concentration alone, but to be available to a necromancer would require Level 14 or above T-man skull (not even an option for a the Chiang-ku Dragon Skull).

As noted above the Tattoos do not reappear on cloned limb/body, this suggests that there is some physical component. Yes they magically reappear on the original when layers of skin are removed, but that could be explained any number of ways.

True, they may be Lesser Beings instead of Greater Beings.
In which case they get all the penalties of being Lesser Beings instead.
Like I said pick your poison.
But the idea that they may be a Greater Being but not really a Greater Being is a non-starter.
There are some seriously weak Greater Beings out there.
If your a Greater Being, then your a Greater Being.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too by claiming that you get all the perks of being a greater being, with none of the penalties of the status!


Clones don't have PPE because they are just clones. Not the same person.
Now if you do a clone body transplant? That's a whole different kettle of fish.
There is a world of difference between "Clone" and "Clone body". Something that lots of people forget.
Also note that the limb replacement does not say that it does not lose the Marks of Heritage? That is a pretty big issue since absent that we are forced to assume that they do come back..
This is made abundantly clear by the text that states, clear as day "The tattoos are linked to the potential psychic energy and essence of the character and only reappear"
That makes it pretty clear that as the tattoos follow the essence where ever it goes. Move that essence to a new body, and the tattoos follow.
Think of them as Yandere Magical Stalkers. "This soul is MINE and none of you other magic's can have it and I'll murder any magical talent it had before so we two will be together forever"


From the description of the magic it seems pretty clear that replaced limbs have the tattoos come back.
That is in fact made clear by the fact that Atlantians getting replaced limbs are not noted as loosing their Marks of Heritage.


They would have the powers of a Rune Warrior that had their staff destroyed.
There is nothing to suggest that the symbols on the Rune Warrior body would, in fact, be needed.
They are part of the transformation, but are not needed anymore than you would need to be in a dragon form to use dragon magic or that you would need to be in the body of a demon to use demonic powers... or well any other magic powers. That's why it's magic.
But hey, if you can find a text citation that says otherwise then I'm all ears! (or I guess eyeballs but whatever)



Assuming that you could find another special snowflake that breaks the rules like the guy in Merctown?
yes, yes you could.
That is one of the magic powers that come with the class and if you were bonded to the skull, you too could use that power to establish a link... for the duration of your bonding.
That is after all how this works.
Note though that you would have to be bonded via your own ritual. Because, again, the difference between "magic powers" and "magic items/continuing spells"


Again, not at all the same. Those are spell components.


That doesn't matter.
Seriously it doesn't
The ritual was already performed. The Tattoos now exist. And unless you are using time travel you can't undo that.


Again Not An Issue. Because again as I keep saying the Tattoos will be there.
There is no separate physical tattoo anymore. The tattoo is the magic. The magic is the Tattoo. The two are one. The Tattoos follow and appear automatically on the bearer of the magic.
That is simply how the magic works.
There is no "except for Necromancers" clause in the books that I have... so I presume that it holds true even for Necromancers.


And as I noted above they DO appear on cloned limbs.
Seriously the text says that they can replace limbs. Nothing about those limbs not having tattoos, which means that they DO as per the rules on tattoos.
Stop.

Then says that they can make full clones.
Stop.
Those clones are new people and thus don't start with tattoos.
There is literally NOTHING there to suggest any sort of escape clause.
Nothing.
It simply spells out that Clones are people too and that you can clone the body but you don't clone the magic.

Clones =/= Clone Body replacement of same person.

I think you are missing one very important point here. Per the ability description being used the T-man's Skull has to be considered a "powerful supernatural monster", the level of power is also defined as god/godling/demon-lord or greater being/demon. Given that the majority of the list are deific in power level, the greater being/demons would also have to be considered on that level. If the T-man is considered a Lesser, for the purposes of this Necromatic Ability being looked at the Bonding Could not take place as described (so no bonus MDC, no knowledge/powers, etc).


Please Site Your Source? WB2 states the opposite of what you are saying.

The Marks of Heritage do not come back if a TA loses a limb, nothing indicates they do come back with a Cloned Limb. The only time a Magic Tattoo is known to come back is if you try to remove layers of skin, and they don't come back if you remove the limb (indicating the mystic link is severed with the amputation).



Which means they would have all the powers of a Rune Warrior, but COULD NOT USE THEM.


Except that a Necromancer could not establish this link for several reasons TIME and PPE required being factors, but also the help of High Mangus to perform the ritual (assuming an Automaton is available). Really the Necromancer has more cost effective ways to achieve the same end result (a giant automaton to ride around in/on and fight for them).


Actually those are Magic Items, not spell components. The Gem Powers are specifically derived from the Gem itself, Pyramids are the same. IMHO Magic Tattoos are Magic Items.


No IT IS AN ISSUE.

The Tattoos WILL NOT BE THERE (aside from those on the physical skull). They do not reappear on the new body. The Necromancer Magic does not allow for it.

Per the Ritual Information being done on others, there is a physical product at the end which would make Tattoos equivalent to an Enchanted Magic Item, which even you admit won't transfer over and require getting a new one.

I think you are missing my point here.
If they are a Lesser Being then they get all the penalties of a Lesser Being.
Full stop.
If they are a Greater Being then, they get all the penalties of a Greater Being.
Full Stop.
Pick one or the other as the set of penalties that you wish to have apply to Atlantian T-men (and maybe all T-men) in your games.
Either they can have their skulls used in necromancy or they have all the weaknesses of Lesser Beings.
There is no third option short of a GM making up a house rule to snowflake them out of their racial weaknesses.
There is also no "well only some Greater Beings work. Others just aren't powerful enough". It doesn't put in a qualifier, meaning that there is no qualifier. Any Greater Being works.
And regardless of how this plays out for T-men Chaing-Ku skulls are still desired.
More so since the part that says that they were believed extinct isn't even presented as lore, but as a rumor in the fluff section. Combined with the fact that they are pretty openly operating in half a dozen places and it is pretty obvious that the "believed extinct" thing has been as retconed away as "Atlantians are fully human" or "Techno-Wizardry is a new magic invented in North America" or "Biomancy is a new secret magic exclusive to the Green World and the Jungle Elves" or "Rune Magic is a totally lost Art" or "Only the Splugorth have the secret of Rune Magic" or "Only the Splugorth have the secrets of Bio-Wizardry" or "There are no regular air flights in North America" or "you can't just go down to the store and buy weapons you have to buy off the black market" or...
Would you like me to continue?


WB2 is my source.
Note the order of operations?
FIRST they talk about limbs. Period. End of sentence.
Then they move on to the next sentence about clones. New subject.
Two sentences, to subjects to separate topics.


The text says the opposite.
They are linked to you.
They come back if you do anyting other than replace the limb with a machine!
Note how the options of "Clone limb" or "Bio-borg limb" or "Regenerate the limb" or literally ANTYNG ELSE besides "use a machine" are not provided as options? The only option that keeps the tattoo off is a machine that can't have Tattoos on it?
That pretty much tells us that regenerating the limb brings back the tattoo!
The "layers of skin" is not exclusive. Otherwise you could just say "well I remove the skin and some flesh, so its gone".
It is an example to make clear that the Tattoo is not in the skin, but the soul.


There are still powers that they could use. So your example falls apart.
The lack of a magic item part of the class does not prove anything. Because, again...magic items are not magic powers. You keep conflating the two. They are not the same.


The fact that it would take lots of time, or be inconvenient is not proof that it is impossible, just that it is difficult.
Thus your claim is still false.


Either way they are not magic powers. Tattoos are Magic Powers, not items.


Sigh.
Again I would like to point out that yes, it does.
Because as I have pointed out several times the magic is pretty darn explicit that removed Tattoos will reappear and that there is no way to remove them.
Note that.
No. Way. To. Remove. Them.
None.
There is no canon way to remove a Magic Tattoo from a person's soul once they are applied there.
None.
Short of divine intervention (because the gods can basically do more or less anything) or the use of some really obscure shenanigans involving some really shady obscure magic... Your soul is branded for ever and ever amen.
And that means that they will always reappear on your body no matter what, for ever and ever amen.
And when someone else uses your magic...
These Tattoos are not just "live broadcasts" they are syndicated episodes that will be rerun for ever. And even if you move to a new zip code the local TV affiliate is still going to be showing the same syndicated episodes of "This is your Tattoo"


Again this is not a magic item.
The tattoo is part of the soul.
It even states this flat out by telling us that the Tattoo is not on the skin but on the essence.
It literally doesn't get any more cut and dried than that!
It can not be removed and is in indelible, inseparable part of the soul for ever and ever amen.
That is not a magic item, that is a power, a part of you.
It is no more a magic item than the brightly colored hair of an Anime Main Character is.
So, once again. Yes they will reappear.
Because as I have stated over and over again. Tattoos reappear on T-men no matter how they try to get rid of them. Which means that they reappear here too.
Barring a house rule changing how Tattoos work to make them not reappear on T-Men they are required to do so.

Most of the aspects you mention in regard to f they are Lesser or Greater really don't matter for the purposes of this discussion.

What does the T-Man's susceptibility to summoning have to do with Necromatic bonding with their limbs? Nothing that I can see.


Again WHERE is it clearly out right stated that "T-men getting cloned limbs or new clone body have their magic tattoos reappear".


Wrong. The TEXT clearly says the ONLY removal effort that won't work is when you remove layers of skin (which happens naturally anyway) which means normal common methods of tattoo removal won't work. They can be removed by removing the limb (they don't say, "but if you get a cloned arm or new body the tattoos come back").

Just because the Tattoo is linked to bearer, does not mean that link can not be severed. Familiar Links can be severed. Rune Weapon/items form links to their owner, those can be severed.


Have you looked into the details of just what it would take for a Necromancer bonded with a controller skull (we'll assume they can) and then take part in the Bonding Ritual?

The Ritual Takes 24hours to complete. It also requires physical contact with the Automaton for the duration. In order to maintain the bond to the Controller Skull takes 120 PPE per cast (5min per level, you'd need to be Level 288 to get the required duration on a single casting, at Level 15 you'd have to cast it 20x). A necromancer would need a huge supply of PPE (@ level 15 you'd need 2400PPE plus ritual PPE, assuming perfect PPE score you'd have less than 300 by this point), and a favorable GM ruling that the skull bond renewal doesn't qualify as interrupting the ritual.


The Tattoo is also part of a physical object. In this sense it is like a Ward, Circle, or Nazca Line, all use the symbol(s) to create a magical effect (really one could think of the T-man as reactivating a Ward/Circle/Line that has been made permanent).

Without that physical object the powers of the T-man can not be activated, even above Level 7.

My point here is that each individual GM is going to have to make a ruling at their table on whether T-men are going to be Lesser Beings or Greater Beings.
This is a pretty weighty decision that is going to affect a lot of PCs in a lot of profound ways.
And one of those profound ways is determining if their skulls can be used.


Two things here.
First off T
hey tell us that that plain as day on page 85
The rules state that, to paraphrase 'you can not remove the tattoos because they are bonded to your soul and thus they will simply reappear'
They do not have to then describe every possible way that you could ever try to remove them... they already told us that it doesn't work.
I have demonstrated that even though they talk about clone limbs? They do not state that clone limbs can remove tattoos. They say that clones of a person, a totally new soul that is a new person in every way shape and form will not have the tattoos though.
I have also pointed out that in a book that itself has, Biowizard arms, clone limbs, and biowizard regeneration PLUS the regeneration magic in the core book PLUS the regeneration magic of Palladium Fantasy that the Splugorth use (circle magic for example)....with all of that as ways to cut of your arm and get a normal, living arm back...with all of that that still the only option presented as working. That bears repeating the ONLY ONE is to use a machine.
Regenerating your old arm is not an option provided
Using a clone limb is not an option provided
Using a biowizard limb is not an option provided
Transferring your soul via the Circle of Soul Transference in PF is not an option provided
Permenantly possessing a new body via Mind Trap is not an option provided
None of those are listed as options
The list of options that were not provided is pretty extensive. And this was still in the early days with out all the books we have now.
THE ONLY OPTION PROVIDED is to just use a machine.
The Only One.
That is pretty solid proof right there that the author knew what they were doing and that the when the rules state "Can NEVER remove the Tattoos" that they mean it.
Now if you have something that contradicts that? By all means.
But at the time of the writing, there were no less than five different ways to get a biological arm back. FIVE. And round about none of them were listed as options. And considering that "Clone a limb" was one of them? And that it was not an option given? Especially considering that the magical options that would not hinder their magic would be the first route that a wizard would try instead of going down the path of machine augmentation?
And that is not even considering that Secrets of the Atlantians, which comes out after there are literally dozens of ways to get new limbs and even new bodies, several of which the Atlantians canonically possess... does not contradict the text in WB2 in any way, shape or form and in fact by not reprinting any new rules states that it is still official in all its particulars.
Note that by reaffirming that the rules in WB2 are the rules in both WB 21 and DB 15 they are specifically and explicitly stating that those rules are The Rules.
And that means that the only way to remove the tattoo is with a cyber-limb
You can't use Soulmancy to switch bodies. Which is a thing that was not only in existence when DB 15 was written, but is from the same author. You can't use Ley-Line Restoration. Or Total Reconstruction. Or anything else at all.
I have said this before actually.
And this is rather important
This is because

Secondly
Your shifting the burden of proof here.
Your the one claiming that it states that you can get rid of Tattoos, even thought he book states that there is no way to remove them.
So the burden is on you to prove that there IS a way to do so.
That is how it works.
In this case you are the one making the claim that tattoos are removable. So you need to support that claim with some evidence.
It is not my job to try and prove a negative and find evidence that disproves your claim. That is a logical fallacy.
Thus, I would like to see some evidence that you CAN remove a tattoo.
Like, where it says in any book, anywhere, that you can remove them. Or in any book at all where it says that you can get rid of them in any way. Or get your magic back by simply transferring to a new body. Or anything of the sort.
Because right now you are making the claim that the canon statement on page 85 of WB2 is not true. So you need to defend that claim.
Otherwise the claim stands.
And let's be clear here the only way you can defend that claim is with evidence, not simply asserting that it can be done and that the lack of a specific prohibition against it is proof it works. Especially in light of my demonstration that not one, not two, but three authors have all rejected the idea that they can be removed. The first, Kevin Siembieda himself not only stated as much but he specifically rejected clone limbs as a possibility because they were an option he had just provided for the first time in the very book where he said that there were no options!


Again you are trying to compare different things.
"connected slightly" and "inseperably part of" are rather different.
Especially when one is described as temporary/limited and one is described as being irremovable in any way, shape or form.


And your point is...
No seriously your point here is?
Just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it is proof that something is impossible.
Considering that I can, right now, think of no less than four separate ways to pull this off...
Nope, no point here at all.
And remember. The entire point here that your trying to "win" is that it provides a magic ability that you can't get via the skull.
And since all you have demonstrated so far is that you DO get the ability, it will just be difficult (not impossible just difficult) to use?
.
.
.
Well, I guess you have helped my case here by demonstrating yet another exotic magic power that you can get (assuming you can find the right skull)


Wards do not state that they magically reappear.
Ignoring that part of the text is not going to make that part of the text magically disappear.


And, yet again.
Not An Issue.
Because they will be there.
Remember this is not some mere casual one platonic date magic.
Oh no this is Yandere magic that stalks you beyond the grave.

This part is relevant, but several times you have brought up summoning as if it has anything to do with the issue.

There may be an even easier way. When WB4/18 was written the Necromancer OCC WOULD NOT be able to use T-men skulls since their SN standing of any type did not arise until DB15. Yes Recton and all, but when the OCCs were being defined originally this particular scenario would not even be possible (something to consider). The only avenue for a Necromancer, at the time, to acquire Tattoo Magic would be the use of Chiang-ku Skull, which still leaves the question of do the Tattoos re-appear (no) and can they use them (ID lock points to no).


WB2 STATES on pg85: "can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed. However, cybernetic/bionic replacement limbs will destroy magic abilities unless they are quality bio-systems and even then , one's mystic abilities are diminished." So we know you can get rid of them by extreme methods that are readily available.

We also know that Cloning does not restore Magic Tattoos, and in one application it is out right stated it doesn't happen with no statement it comes back in other applications. None of the T-man OCCs even addresses Cloned Limbs as replacements, just that Bio-Systems are preferred (pg94,95,97,99 in WB2, WB21pg111, WB6 doesn't even consider it).

There is no mention the tattoos come back OTHER than by "Removing layers of skin" (WB2pg85).


My Point is that a Bonded Necromancer/Controller Skull is not going to be getting an Automaton.


You are also ignoring the part of the text that states the circumstances dictating when Magic Tattoos reappear "removing layers of skin", and ignoring that removal of the limb removes the tattoos WITH NOTHING stating they come back with a new pure organic replacement (ie Cloning).

Lets be honest here...
The Crux of the issue and the only one that is of any real relevance anymore is the question of Tattoos Reappearing or not.
Everything else (other than maybe Chiang-Ku skulls) is a sideshow at best and a distraction at worst.
Thus those distractions are being put in spoilers.
And since all of the other points are rehashes of the same one...
E.g. are simply different ways of trying to argue that Tattoos do not reappear I put all but the main one in spoilers as well.


Um...
1) there is noting at all the slightest bit relevant to the fact that they were not supernatural creatures back then to how the power works.
2) you still keep claiming that the tattoos do not work as written but you do not provide proof. In the lack of that I find your claims to be less than convincing.
Assertions are not proof
Repetitions of a claim are not proof
Only proof is proof, so please, cite your source.
I have been perfectly willing to cite my sources and to explain the reasoning behind why my sources work the way they do. So far from you all I have gotten is a vague "well the rules don't really work the way they are written because they don't"
3) The Chaing-Ku skulls are even MORE relivant... since we note that they do not say "oh, by the way if you use this on a Chaing-Ku dragon you will not get their magic" The lack of any text providing that the power does not work on Tattoos is pretty telling.












You just removed and ignored my entire post about this very subject.
Would you like me to repeat it? Or do you simply plan to ignore all evidence that contradicts your view by pretending that it was not posted and simply assert your claims again?
So... first off
Book, Page and exact text that supports your statement.
Just saying "it says it does in a book" doesn't cut it.


Now as for your utterly false claim that I have not covered the limb question?
Looks like its time for a Recap Episode!
Please note the following exchange.
After you do, answer the questions there, do not simply ignore it, cut it out and then claim that I did not actually make the claims, raise the questions and that you have won the argument because I have not addressed the very issues raised there!


Again it is simple really.
Can NEVER Y unless you do X means that X and only X is the way to Y. It does not mean X, or A, B, C, D, E, F, G, or H.
Thus we know that they ONLY way to remove tattoos is "cut off your arm and replace it with a machine"
You can not "Cut off your arm and regrow it"
You can not "Cut off your arm and replace it with a cloned version"
You can not do all sorts of other things.
And the ONLY possible reason that those things fail, the ONLY ONE is that the Tattoos will come back. Because if the Tattoos really ARE gone... then they are possibilities and can not be excluded. But, under the rules they are explicitly excluded.

IF you can demonstrate a canon statement in a book that provides a canon route other than a biosystem limb to remove a Tattoo you will have something to go on.
But otherwise you are literally arguing that the written text is not the canon.

IT IS Very relevant.

WB2, WB6, WB21 did not have the T-men as SN. Necromancers in WB4/18 can only derive powers from skulls IF the skull is of a "powerful supernatural monster" (or Dragon Skull). Nothing on the WB4 pg101-2 list (which is C&P in WB18) remotely allows for the situation with the exception of Dragon Skull, but then you need to find a Chiang-ku dragon skulll.


My claims are based on statements in WB2 and have been cited previously:
-the only time a Magic Tattoo is said to reappear IS when layers of skin are removed. (quoted multiple times with page)
-tattoos can be removed by removing the limb (quoted multiple times with page)
-Bio-Systems are the favored cybernetic replacement limb of choice, and they involve cloning "...often combined with genetic manipulation and cloing to create..."-RMB pg232 (pg31 Bionics SB has a similar statement). Nothing states the Tattoos reappear in the various OCCs when they get Bio-Systems
-pure cloning is also an option, but again a statement exists that they do not reappear, no statement exists indicating they would reappear under any circumstance involving cloning. (quoted previously)
-the only person who can activate a Tattoo is the person for whom it was given. That is per text, and a possessing entity (which the Necromancer ability amounts to, even if it is more extensive) can not. (quoted previously)
-Short of a Level 14/15 T-man (or higher), the Tattoo activation is going to require physical Touch (that is stated). And using a Dragon Skull won't allow it at all (fixed at level 5, short by 2 levels). (quoted previously)

Yes the Necromancer gets the powers of the T-man (as a recton), but that does not mean they can use said powers of a given class (we saw that in the Rune Warrior OCC).

You have claimed several things and I have asked for citation in previous posts, which you have not provided. As you have not and apparently can not, I am done with this.

Again that has nothing at all to do with this.
Nothing
Seriously it has nothing at all to do with this
There is nothing in the universe that what you could do previously has to do with what you can do now.
Zero
Zilch
Nada
Not A Thing
Nothing


Again this is an absurd stance because it negates the entire rule set.
Seriously.
If anything more involved than "layers of skin" cures Tattoos, which is what you are claiming here, then nothing else in the section applies and we can disregard all the rest of the canon.


And again you have not provided any evidence that they STAY REMOVED.


1) it is not the favored cybernetic limb of choice. It is flat out the only option.
Period
Dot
End of story.
No other option is provided.

2)And is still a cybernetic machine


Again you are refusing to provide your citation when asked for it.
This is rather troubling when I have asked for the book/page several times and you refuse to provide it.
Especially since I have provided my textual citation for an explicit refutation of cloning being an option.
A citation that you keep simply cutting out and then acting as if removing my citations makes them go away.


And again that proves less than nothing.
The only person who can cast a spell is the person who knows the spell... and yet some how Necromancy works there.



Again your premise entails your conclusion.
Your premise is that "I am making the claim that tattoos will not reappear because I am making that claim. Therefore because they will not reappear, they can not be used. Thus this proves that they can not be used."
This only has any relivance if you can actually demonstrate that they do not reappear.
Something that you keep failing to do.


Again you creating an imaginary difference.
The lack of a specific separate magic item has nothing to do with an internal magic power.
And second off you are again entailing your conclusion.
You still haven't proven your contention that Tattoos do not reappear.


Funny that what I have been saying.
YOU are the one that is refusing to provide your citation.
I have provided the book and page of every claim I have made. Instead you simply cut out my citations in your replies and then pretend that I never made them
I have provided my citations for my evidence and provide, in detail, the logical reasoning that tattoos reappear.
To which you reply "no they don't because reasons"
I have provided my citations for my evidence that you can not use clone limbs
To which you reply "yes you can, because I say you can regardless of what it says on page 85"
I have provided my citations for my evidence that you can not use clones.
To which you replay "yes you can, because I say you can regardless of what the book says"
I have provided my citations for my evidence that Tattoos are magic powers and not simply magic items.

YOU are the one that is claiming that there is a statement in the books that clones work. A statement that you will not provide a page for.
YOU are the one who is making the claim that it is possible to use things other than bio-system limbs which is what we see on page 85... but that you refuse to provide a citation.
YOU are the one who is making the claim that Tattoos are magic items and not magic powers, a claim you will not provide a citation for.

In point of fact, the only person who is making unverified claims is you.
You are free to walk away from this if you wish...
But you need to be honest about the reason, and that seems to be that you are either unwilling or unable to cite your sources and/or that you are unwilling or unable to accept when other people cite their sources.

Because the simple truth here is that the only person that is not citing their sources and that is not providing the logical reasoning behind their arguments is you.

The big problem I can see with gaining temporary knowledge to make tats via a Chaing-Ku skull or an Atlantean Alchemist tongue is the duration. You need to pay PPE every time to fresh it and I'm not sure if it's ever been clarified just how many hours (days?) it takes to inscribe a magic tattoo.

I can't be too much or it wouldn't be worth the time of Splugorth High Lords to do it on slaves. But the maintenance costs could stack up. I expect the Splugorth want to control the monopoly on tattoo creation which is why they probably go after most Atlantean clans and Chaing-Ku when they learn of them.

For High Lords? There's another option than necromancy. It's a bit of an expansion on the abilities of the Knowledge Power Circle, but burning the tongue of a tattoo master might function similarly to burning the tongue of a wizard... so, summoner High Lord makes a circle of Knowledge, burns the tongue of a Tattoo Master, and learns tattoo magic at 6th level. He then teaches what he knows to other High Lords, and now you have legitimate knowledge of tattoo mastery.