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dragonfett · **Joined:** Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:39 pm **Posts:** 4255

If a Techno-Wizard were to learn a Spell of Legend and wanted to incorporate it into a device, could they?

Mark Hall · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:55 pm

Sure, but it would be expensive.

taalismn · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:28 pm

I'd make it the equivalent of a Manhattan Project, as privately financed.
And the Wizard who successfully incorporated a Spell of Legend into a creation? They've either set themselves up as a Wizard of Legend and/or a SOL target for anybody craving their secrets.

eliakon · **Posted:** Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:23 pm

taalismn wrote:

I'd make it the equivalent of a Manhattan Project, as privately financed.
And the Wizard who successfully incorporated a Spell of Legend into a creation? They've either set themselves up as a Wizard of Legend and/or a SOL target for anybody craving their secrets.

^this^
I would also openly laugh at a player who tried to argue that it should be just a regular normal device.

Just like I laugh at players who suggest super devices that abuse the heck out of the 'extra carats' rule to let them make toys that cast amazingly powerful effects for trivial amounts of PPE, and that cost next to nothing to make.

I then point out that their claims of "but the rules say it is legal" are false. There are no "rules" for TW construction. There are some guidelines in the RUE book that present a basic template that can be used as a base for individual items to be based off of... but there are no such thing as 'rules' on TW so the refuge of the rules lawyer is useless. Every device is a one of a kind collaboration between the player and the GM and they will have costs, effects, requirements and the rest based on what, in the GMs sole opinion, is best for that particular game.

Mack · **Posted:** Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:40 am

taalismn wrote:

I'd make it the equivalent of a Manhattan Project, as privately financed.
And the Wizard who successfully incorporated a Spell of Legend into a creation? They've either set themselves up as a Wizard of Legend and/or a SOL target for anybody craving their secrets.

Agreed.

Of course, if a GM allowed a TW to learn a Spell of Legend in the first place...

ShadowLogan · **Posted:** Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:57 pm

dragonfett wrote:

If a Techno-Wizard were to learn a Spell of Legend and wanted to incorporate it into a device, could they?

Could they? Yes they can learn it, it is basically a spell/ritual and those can be learned. Nothing indicates they can not put a given spell/ritual they learned into a TW device so yes they could incorporate it.

Now here is the hard part, if using the TW Creation Rules in RUE, what GEM is required for a given SoL? Because at a quick glance none of the BoM SoLs appear in the RUE gem list.

So now the TW has a SoL in their repertoire, but they don't know how to go about putting it into an actual TW device (need appropriate gem). This means they have to figure out what Gem to use with regard to the SoL in a TW Device.

As a spell caster they can still cast it outside of a device, but they do so with penalties unless they have a suitable item to "focus" it through.

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:23 pm

I would put out that what rules that there are in RUE for TW device cration only work with spells with numeral spell levels. As such those spells which have a spell level of 'spell of ledgend' can not be used with the RUE TWDC rules.

However, I do ageee with the others that the planing, physical, time and PPE costs would be on a scale that a individual TW could not do the planing, collect the physical componets, and put the time & PPE into make such a device alone.

Nekira Sudacne · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:32 pm

Mack wrote:

taalismn wrote:

I'd make it the equivalent of a Manhattan Project, as privately financed.
And the Wizard who successfully incorporated a Spell of Legend into a creation? They've either set themselves up as a Wizard of Legend and/or a SOL target for anybody craving their secrets.

Agreed.

Of course, if a GM allowed a TW to learn a Spell of Legend in the first place...

There's no need for the TW to learn it, it's enough to work closely with someone who knows it, but there is a penatly for this.

eliakon · **Posted:** Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:08 pm

For the record I would personally say that a Spell of Legend would count as a level 20 or 30 spell for purposes of being put in a device.
And I would probably not allow it to have the costs reduced by simply adding in new gems. Instead I would require an entire set of gems to be added for each one carat reduction...

Mack · **Posted:** Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:16 pm

I might take a different route. Insist that it's built per the normal TW rules, but it's only a one-time use device (normally one-time use devices get greatly reduced build requirements). All the gems & components are burned out when activated.

For story telling purposes, I like the element that creates. It becomes a wicked expensive, one-time, powerful mcgruffin.

eliakon · **Posted:** Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:33 am

Mack wrote:

I might take a different route. Insist that it's built per the normal TW rules, but it's only a one-time use device (normally one-time use devices get greatly reduced build requirements). All the gems & components are burned out when activated.

For story telling purposes, I like the element that creates. It becomes a wicked expensive, one-time, powerful mcgruffin.

I would look at each proposal as a unique story element and go from there.
Like any TW device there are no rules, just guide lines and with a Spell of Legend this becomes even more true.
So I would look at what the spell is, what the item they want is and why they want it and what they want to do with it and go from there.
Just like I simply point blank refuse to allow 1 PPE Mend the Broken guns I would not allow something like "An long range cannon that shoots warrior horde spells" as that isn't anything that is productive to a game. A TW device that can make clones though, that has possibilities and I would be open to discussing with a player how to make a TW clone chamber... for a price.

ShadowLogan · **Posted:** Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:51 pm

Mack wrote:

I might take a different route. Insist that it's built per the normal TW rules, but it's only a one-time use device (normally one-time use devices get greatly reduced build requirements). All the gems & components are burned out when activated.

For story telling purposes, I like the element that creates. It becomes a wicked expensive, one-time, powerful mcgruffin.

I have no problem with it being used as a disposable device.

But here is the hang-up... What Gem corresponds to the Spell of Legend being used*? Ex. Bob the TW has access to the SoL "Barrier of Toth" (picked at random), which Gem would he use? BoT isn't on the TW Gem/Spell list.

By the guideline/rules it might just be easier for Bob the TW to mimic a SoL in a device via a spell chain of other spells than to use a SoL itself.

*I am going off the Wizard Invocation Spell List, Specialty magic (ex. Ocean, or Necromancy) would seem to be covered by their TW Gem list already as those specialty magics only use 2 gem types with no distinction on what gets used for respective spells.

Prysus · **Posted:** Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:01 pm

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, a Spell of Legend should work with a TW Device without too much issue. The problem with Spells of Legend is not that they fall under special rules, but that they're so rare that people aren't sure if they exist or are just a myth (i.e. a "legend"). When they are learned, their power level is between 11-15. The exact level would depend on the spell and a G.M. judgment.

Figuring out the gem could be tricky, but could probably be deduced with minimal effort. So Metamorphosis Dragon is likely Alexandrite as that's where all the Metamorphosis spells fall, but that's not 100% guaranteed (but a G.M. should probably have a good reason for making it a different gem other than just being difficult "cuz"). If a G.M. wants to make a Spell of Legend difficult to incorporate, then they shouldn't be handing out Spells of Legend in the first place (as they're designed to be so extraordinarily rare and unheard of).

And in case someone is wondering about the basis for my claims ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 189 has the spell casting times for Spells of Legend being equal to levels 11-15. That's not much proof, but when combined with the Palladium Fantasy Second Edition reference about Anti-Magic Cloud on page 210, we get more information.

Quote:

Those who are ignorant of the great old magicks insist this one time Spell of Legend never exist ...

Quote:

Note: The anti-magic cloud is no longer classified as a spell of Legend, because its existence has been verified and in the last decade, been reintroduced to the world.

This tells us that Anti-Magic Cloud was a Spell of Legend (also how it was listed in PF1). After the spell was confirmed to exist, and people began to learn it, it is now classified as a Level 11 spell (we see how that happened in PF2). Per the TW creation rules (RUE), it can be placed into a TW device without any special rules.

So the hard part should be gaining access to legends in the first place, not incorporating what you already have access to into what you already have access to. That's my take on the matter (based on various information from the books). Farewell and safe journeys.

Prysus · **Posted:** Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:30 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:

But here is the hang-up... What Gem corresponds to the Spell of Legend being used*? Ex. Bob the TW has access to the SoL "Barrier of Toth" (picked at random), which Gem would he use? BoT isn't on the TW Gem/Spell list.

Greetings and Salutations. The TW Gem/Spell list though follows a pattern, with similar spells using the same type of gem. Barrier of Thoth could be tricky, but I think something that could probably be figured out in just a few tries.

Diamond seems a high chance. It has Impenetrable Wall of Force, Invincible Armor, Invulnerability (which grants immunity to energy attacks), and Wall of Defense (which also halts energy and magic attacks). Walls with structure that can be damaged as well as built-in resistances.

Sapphire (Black) is another good pick. Null Sphere (can halt magic entering its sphere) and Shadow Wall (a defensive wall, but not quite as protective as the Diamond based walls) could help represent many of the abilities. These are also higher level spells which might be fitting for a Spell of Legend (Level 11-15). I think Diamond is more likely, but this is my second attempt.

After that I'm falling back to Lapis Lazuli, and then Quartz (Ruby), but I'm skeptical either of those are a better fit than the above two. If it wasn't the first two (even more so if none of the four), I'd actually be quite curious to the G.M.'s reasoning beyond a desire to make it unnecessarily complicated after s/he realized s/he shouldn't have given me access to the Spell of Legend in the first place.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day.

Mack · **Posted:** Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:11 pm

ShadowLogan wrote:

But here is the hang-up... What Gem corresponds to the Spell of Legend being used*? Ex. Bob the TW has access to the SoL "Barrier of Toth" (picked at random), which Gem would he use? BoT isn't on the TW Gem/Spell list.

Agreed. Like Prysus alluded to, it's a GM call which is best informed by looking a similar spells, unless.... a GM could get a little wacky and invent a unique, hard to find gem that requires its own adventure.

"You must find 3 carats of Bjork shards... which only grows under the toenails of hibernating dragons..."

But, yea. A GM call based on similar spells.

ShadowLogan · **Posted:** Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:03 am

@Mack & Prysus
I agree that a GM can work out something to include the various SoLs in the TW Gem List (probably also applies to Stone Master Gem Powers), but such a thing isn't going to be standardized. Which was my point.

Granted I'm not sure a TW needs access to this level of spells, they should be able to duplicate the spells (or come close to it) via spell chains in their TW device.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6239

Prysus wrote:

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 189 has the spell casting times for Spells of Legend being equal to levels 11-15.

Based on that I'm thinking a "treat as level 15 until otherwise known" policy might make sense, although 20 is also appealing because easier math.

Ice Dragon · **Posted:** Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:24 pm

Possible: yes
Requirements: unbelievable. :lol:

Gem: exotic and rare like the gem used in the Ring of Elders. :twisted:

Makes character a target: yes :twisted:

Time: lots :mrgreen:

.
PPE: enormous :wink:

So as a GM I can laugh and have lots of ideas for new campains :twisted:

The Beast · **Posted:** Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:17 am

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, a Spell of Legend should work with a TW Device without too much issue. The problem with Spells of Legend is not that they fall under special rules, but that they're so rare that people aren't sure if they exist or are just a myth (i.e. a "legend"). When they are learned, their power level is between 11-15. The exact level would depend on the spell and a G.M. judgment.

Figuring out the gem could be tricky, but could probably be deduced with minimal effort. So Metamorphosis Dragon is likely Alexandrite as that's where all the Metamorphosis spells fall, but that's not 100% guaranteed (but a G.M. should probably have a good reason for making it a different gem other than just being difficult "cuz"). If a G.M. wants to make a Spell of Legend difficult to incorporate, then they shouldn't be handing out Spells of Legend in the first place (as they're designed to be so extraordinarily rare and unheard of).

And in case someone is wondering about the basis for my claims ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 189 has the spell casting times for Spells of Legend being equal to levels 11-15. That's not much proof, but when combined with the Palladium Fantasy Second Edition reference about Anti-Magic Cloud on page 210, we get more information.

Quote:

Those who are ignorant of the great old magicks insist this one time Spell of Legend never exist ...

Quote:

Note: The anti-magic cloud is no longer classified as a spell of Legend, because its existence has been verified and in the last decade, been reintroduced to the world.

This tells us that Anti-Magic Cloud was a Spell of Legend (also how it was listed in PF1). After the spell was confirmed to exist, and people began to learn it, it is now classified as a Level 11 spell (we see how that happened in PF2). Per the TW creation rules (RUE), it can be placed into a TW device without any special rules.

So the hard part should be gaining access to legends in the first place, not incorporating what you already have access to into what you already have access to. That's my take on the matter (based on various information from the books). Farewell and safe journeys.

To further support this point, the Fleet Feet spell on page 9 of the High Seas book for PFRPG states that its popularity and commonness are what makes it a level 6 spell.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6239

Doesn't heart of magic give LONGER casting times for spells of legend than level 15 spells though?

I think that means until they actually assign it a lower level, you should functionally treat it as at least level 16.

Maybe even 17 since XP tables technically do tell you what you need to get to 16 so people could claim they learn a SOL unless you make them 17

drewkitty ~..~ · **Posted:** Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:55 am

@ axe
To your non-sequitur question,
Which game are you playing? Rifts or Palladium Fantasy? Answer that question and that tells you which set of rules to follow for how long the incantations for the spells take.
It is a simple concept.
--------------
To your on topic remarks,
The GM of the game being played sets the Level of Spell for the TW equations for any SoL TW magic items. Not anything else.
Why this⇡, because making SoL TW magic items are outside the published rules and GMs get to make this sort of ruling for their games.

➣Does this mean that the Level will not be 'the same' across the board? Yep, that is part of the game. Live with it.
➢Does this mean that you as a player will have to wait till you are 'in game' for your char to build that SoL TW magic item? Yes it does. Because those type of magic items tend to turn out to be McGuffins. Ether in the getting the stuff to make them or in chase to get them back once they have been stollen.

Father Goose · **Posted:** Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:32 pm

Mack wrote:

"You must find 3 carats of Bjork shards... which only grows under the toenails of hibernating dragons..."

I'm shamelessly stealing this, Mack. Thank you.

Mouser13 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:33 am

Personally treat as very complex on TW creation at least 9 or 10 Difficultly just for standard can't make any mods on the until at least done the basic. But that just me. Also I always though for some reason they where 20 level spells but can't seem to find anything supporting this.

mathygreen · **Posted:** Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:53 pm

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, a Spell of Legend should work with a TW Device without too much issue. The problem with Spells of Legend is not that they fall under special rules, but that they're so rare that people aren't sure if they exist or are just a myth (i.e. a "legend"). When they are learned, their power level is between 11-15. The exact level would depend on the spell and a G.M. judgment.

Figuring out the gem could be tricky, but could probably be deduced with minimal effort. So Metamorphosis Dragon is likely Alexandrite as that's where all the Metamorphosis spells fall, but that's not 100% guaranteed (but a G.M. should probably have a good reason for making it a different gem other than just being difficult "cuz"). If a G.M. wants to make a Spell of Legend difficult to incorporate, then they shouldn't be handing out Spells of Legend in the first place (as they're designed to be so extraordinarily rare and unheard of).

And in case someone is wondering about the basis for my claims ...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 189 has the spell casting times for Spells of Legend being equal to levels 11-15. That's not much proof, but when combined with the Palladium Fantasy Second Edition reference about Anti-Magic Cloud on page 210, we get more information.
think this should work

MOD EDIT - Topic Locked for raising a discussion that's a year old. Mack

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