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 Post subject: Energy field question...
Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:06 am
  

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In your games, because the rules do not specify: is it possible for allies to fire through it without hurting it? If not, the game just got more challenging for my players.

Round 8 begins, wiz has first go so he uses energy field to hopefully buy them a bit of time for him, the cleric, and mind mage to do a quick heal on everyone. However, it was in the same round that the fire warlock finally false his emotional check roll. And casts breathe fire on the goblins on the other side of the energy field. Mind you, he is high enough level to kill the wall. it was late anyway, so I ended the game there.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:07 pm
  

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My read of it is, No, the allies cannot fire through it. There's nothing in the text to indicate it only blocks one direction.

In your example, the Warlock's blast would hit and destroy the wall.



EDIT - As an aside, check the damage for the Warlock's Breath Fire spell. I don't believe it becomes more powerful for higher level characters.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:04 pm
  

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It’s a magic wall.
No shoot thru.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:24 am
  

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*nods* there is no text saying the mage or the mage's allies can shoot through an energy field. Wall or Field.

There is the 'however', most GMs I've played with ignored this.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:23 am
  

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I would not object to a mage shaping shooting ports into the energy field... though there would be the understanding that they would be two way.

Nothing says salsa like a grenade falling in your energy bubble.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:56 pm
  

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Anything that might allow a mage to alter the shape, like put little firing holes in it?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:22 pm
  

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Wanted to update you guys on this. The player rolled all 1s except for a 5 and a 2. So the EF actually remained for slightly longer than I had originally thought it would when the mage casted the spell...and rather fortunately for them that my dice were on their side while it was up, and before the remaining goblins were able to kill it. So they were able to semi restore SOME SDC to everyone. And the mage and goblin shaman had an incredible fight. As did the ranger and the goblin's champion.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:28 pm
  

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ShadowHawk wrote:
In your games, because the rules do not specify: is it possible for allies to fire through it without hurting it? If not, the game just got more challenging for my players.

Round 8 begins, wiz has first go so he uses energy field to hopefully buy them a bit of time for him, the cleric, and mind mage to do a quick heal on everyone. However, it was in the same round that the fire warlock finally false his emotional check roll. And casts breathe fire on the goblins on the other side of the energy field. Mind you, he is high enough level to kill the wall. it was late anyway, so I ended the game there.

I would have to say that since the rules don't say otherwise, most shields would block weapons fire in both directions. However, most GMs treat it as one-way-only protection. So, I would say that it depends on what you set your difficulty settings to... :)

I also think that if you're going to do it that way it's something that the players need to be aware of before hand since so many people play it as one-way protection.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:14 pm
  

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Well, I wound't allow for holes to shoot through. The Field has an AR, albeit it's 4, but it does have one. If you put holes in it, how does it affect the overall ER? Best to just leave it as a wall that is a wall both ways.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:15 pm
  

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Veknironth wrote:
Well, I wound't allow for holes to shoot through. The Field has an AR, albeit it's 4, but it does have one. If you put holes in it, how does it affect the overall ER? Best to just leave it as a wall that is a wall both ways.

-Vek
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To me, the AR is how difficult is is to damage the shield, not the people behind it.

An Energy field is a wall; most of the time, to hit something on the other side of a wall, you have to get rid of the wall, first (leaving aside penetrations and such; not possible with the energy field) Opening firing ports in the energy field (when it is created; basically, creating a wall with windows in it, instead of a straight wall) means that there's ways to damage someone through the energy field, but that would be handled with an AR or with Called Shots.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:11 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Veknironth wrote:
Well, I wound't allow for holes to shoot through. The Field has an AR, albeit it's 4, but it does have one. If you put holes in it, how does it affect the overall ER? Best to just leave it as a wall that is a wall both ways.

-Vek
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To me, the AR is how difficult is is to damage the shield, not the people behind it.


Agreed.
Ninjas & Superspies mentions on page 125 that "All characters have a natural AR of 4."
Which was simply a rephrasing of the rule that all attacks need to beat a 4 in order to strike the target.

When shooting at an Energy Field, the field's AR 4 simply means that if you roll 4 or less, you miss (or fail to damage) the target.

Quote:
An Energy field is a wall; most of the time, to hit something on the other side of a wall, you have to get rid of the wall, first (leaving aside penetrations and such; not possible with the energy field)


Exactly.

Quote:
Opening firing ports in the energy field (when it is created; basically, creating a wall with windows in it, instead of a straight wall) means that there's ways to damage someone through the energy field, but that would be handled with an AR or with Called Shots.


I would not allow anybody create windows in the Energy Field, as there's no mention in the spell about the caster getting to dictate shape or special features.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:55 pm
  

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It seems kind of weird that it's just as easy to miss a wall as it is a person, but then a 1-4 is a miss regardless of the size you're shooting at too in most cases.

Does anyone recall any bad-at-penetrating weapopons which add to the effective AR of stuff it shoots? I only remember one that lowered the effective AR


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:26 pm
  

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Old Palladium had the concept of Penetration Value, which was how effective bullets were at shooting through obsticles and hitting a target behind them. This was poorly defined and basically no one used it, and was eventually quietly dropped.

I think N&SS is the only current system that still has Penetration Value rules.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:58 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Veknironth wrote:
Well, I wound't allow for holes to shoot through. The Field has an AR, albeit it's 4, but it does have one. If you put holes in it, how does it affect the overall ER? Best to just leave it as a wall that is a wall both ways.

-Vek
"Else, it's magic portal."


To me, the AR is how difficult is is to damage the shield, not the people behind it.

An Energy field is a wall; most of the time, to hit something on the other side of a wall, you have to get rid of the wall, first (leaving aside penetrations and such; not possible with the energy field) Opening firing ports in the energy field (when it is created; basically, creating a wall with windows in it, instead of a straight wall) means that there's ways to damage someone through the energy field, but that would be handled with an AR or with Called Shots.


A "natural AR of 4." And in our revamping of the rules, it goes up by 1 point per level of caster starting at level 2. So it becomes more difficult to damage as a whole. Which it all balances out with weapon bonuses.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:43 pm
  

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ShadowHawk wrote:
..."natural AR of 4." ....

For a EF this (Nat.A.R. 4) Means that if you hit the EF you do damage to the EF, and if you miss the EF you don't damage the EF. And that there is absolutly no chance of by-passing the EF.

Some people has aruged that what I said is wrong because they refused to do the math, or insisted that Nat. AR is only for living beings.
⁍The math of the mechanices for NAR 4 is clear. If you hit you hit, if you miss you miss.
⁍And the mechanics for Nat. AR is the same as Vehical AR and Robotic AR. (Starship AR can vary a bit from the Nat. AR mech but are essentially the same in concept also.)
---------
Yes, the Math changes when the AR score changes.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:39 pm
  

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It wasn't a question, rather a statement.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:03 pm
  

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One concept might be interesting is if some magic attacks had some "weight" to them, so you could throw them in an arc overtop of a wall and have them parabola down atop your foes.

Like an archer should be able to do that... why not a spell like "throwing stones"?

Seems like lightning, if it comes down from the sky (rather than from the mage) should also be unimpeded by energy field ... though it should be impeded by your foe standing under a canopy/roof/ceiling.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:05 pm
  

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the damage from throwing stones seems to come from the kinetic energy of the stones. it seems unlikely that they would drop over their trajectory to a sufficient amount to get around a barrier (unless the target is a rather substantial distance beyond the barrier).

but something like ice orb or fire globe should work like that, i would expect, given that they are thrown like normal objects and the damage comes from magical freezing or heat.

and i would agree with you entirely that the call lightning spell would work fine to get around walls, but not ceilings.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:02 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
the damage from throwing stones seems to come from the kinetic energy of the stones. it seems unlikely that they would drop over their trajectory to a sufficient amount to get around a barrier (unless the target is a rather substantial distance beyond the barrier).

but something like ice orb or fire globe should work like that, i would expect, given that they are thrown like normal objects and the damage comes from magical freezing or heat.

and i would agree with you entirely that the call lightning spell would work fine to get around walls, but not ceilings.


Seconded.
While some spells arguably effectively created short-duration weapons that inflict MD due simply to their magical nature (fire ball), Throwing Stones specifies that the stones are (temporary) MDC objects that fly with "cannonball" like force when thrown.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:02 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Ninjas & Superspies mentions on page 125 that "All characters have a natural AR of 4."
Which was simply a rephrasing of the rule that all attacks need to beat a 4 in order to strike the target.

No, what this means RAW is if you roll a natural 20 (automatic hit) your modified roll to hit must be 5 or higher to penetrate the AR, meaning you can't have more than -15 to strike.

Unless you're using AP bullets. That lowers effective AR from 4 to 2 so you'd only need a modified 3, so you could have up to -17 in penalties and still penetrate the AR.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:45 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Ninjas & Superspies mentions on page 125 that "All characters have a natural AR of 4."
Which was simply a rephrasing of the rule that all attacks need to beat a 4 in order to strike the target.

No, what this means RAW is if you roll a natural 20 (automatic hit) your modified roll to hit must be 5 or higher to penetrate the AR, meaning you can't have more than -15 to strike.


How do you figure?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:10 pm
  

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Natural 20s always "hit", but I don't see anything about them always surpassing AR, so penalties should still apply for determining modified strike to see whether or not they surpass the AR.

Am I missing some text somewhere that says nat 20s always beat AR?

If someone has AR 19 and you are net -1 to strike (no bonuses), a natural 20 should hit them, but not surpass their AR because your modified strike (19) merely tied their AR.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:26 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Natural 20s always "hit", but I don't see anything about them always surpassing AR, so penalties should still apply for determining modified strike to see whether or not they surpass the AR.

Am I missing some text somewhere that says nat 20s always beat AR?

If someone has AR 19 and you are net -1 to strike (no bonuses), a natural 20 should hit them, but not surpass their AR because your modified strike (19) merely tied their AR.


Okay... thank you for the example. That helps clarify what you mean.
:ok:

Because it's handy, I'll look at RUE p. 287 for AR rules:
If an attack roll to strike with all bonuses is less than the AR, the armor absorbs the attack--subtract the damage from the armor's SDC.

So your interpretation would seem correct: a Nat 20 with a net penalty to strike could well strike the target, but also end up damaging the armor instead of bypassing it.
(At least by RUE rules... a setting where AR matters more might have thought to address the issue somewhere)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:01 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
your interpretation would seem correct:
a Nat 20 with a net penalty to strike could well strike the target, but also end up damaging the armor instead of bypassing it.
(At least by RUE rules... a setting where AR matters more might have thought to address the issue somewhere)

Possibly, I'll keep an eye on it as I circle through the SDC main books.

I wish AR mattered more in those settings but if you can roll a parry or autododge higher than your AR it basically doesn't help unless you're surprised attacked, like to simultaneous attack... penalties helpin it stop nat 20s is a saving grace if we can find no contradiction.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Natural 20s always "hit", but I don't see anything about them always surpassing AR, so penalties should still apply for determining modified strike to see whether or not they surpass the AR.

Am I missing some text somewhere that says nat 20s always beat AR?

If someone has AR 19 and you are net -1 to strike (no bonuses), a natural 20 should hit them, but not surpass their AR because your modified strike (19) merely tied their AR.


Example that contrasts between normal AR and Natural AR mechanics when a Nat20 is rolled.
-A nat 20 will always beat any normal AR items. If there is a penalty to strike then the game's GM gets to choose what that means.

-A nat 20 will always hit a Natural AR item. But will not penetrate the Nat. AR unless the SD of the attack is greater than the SDC of the Nat AR item.

forum sidenote: SD is to SDC the same way MD is to MDC.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:22 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
I wish AR mattered more in those settings but if you can roll a parry or autododge higher than your AR it basically doesn't help unless you're surprised attacked, like to simultaneous attack... penalties helpin it stop nat 20s is a saving grace if we can find no contradiction.


Agreed.
I have a house-ruled solution, but I don't remember if I ever bothered to playtest it:
On any unsuccessful Parry/Dodge/Etc., add the character's AR to the defense roll; if the new total is higher than the strike roll, then the strike hits the armor.

So if the Strike is 18, and the Parry roll is 12, an AR of 6+ would mean that the armor takes damage, for example.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:23 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
forum sidenote: SD is to SDC the same way MD is to MDC.


I get where you're coming from, but it's kind of like insisting on saying "basesball" instead of "baseball."

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:13 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
I have a house-ruled solution, but I don't remember if I ever bothered to playtest it:
On any unsuccessful Parry/Dodge/Etc., add the character's AR to the defense roll; if the new total is higher than the strike roll, then the strike hits the armor.

So if the Strike is 18, and the Parry roll is 12, an AR of 6+ would mean that the armor takes damage, for example.

The only tweak I would make is to subtract 4 from the AR for this purpose, since AR 5 is supposed to just be 1 bit higher than no AR at all


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:22 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
forum sidenote: SD is to SDC the same way MD is to MDC.


I get where you're coming from, but it's kind of like insisting on saying "basesball" instead of "baseball."

Nope it is more like not saying 'ABS system' (anti-lock breaking system system) and just saying 'ABS'.

Note for New people: SDC stands for Structural Damage Capacity. And I find the phrasing 'SDC damage' plain stupid. Especially since the introduction of MD/MDC (Mega-Damage/Mega-Damage Capacity) came into the PB lexicon.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:46 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I have a house-ruled solution, but I don't remember if I ever bothered to playtest it:
On any unsuccessful Parry/Dodge/Etc., add the character's AR to the defense roll; if the new total is higher than the strike roll, then the strike hits the armor.

So if the Strike is 18, and the Parry roll is 12, an AR of 6+ would mean that the armor takes damage, for example.

The only tweak I would make is to subtract 4 from the AR for this purpose, since AR 5 is supposed to just be 1 bit higher than no AR at all


Huh.
Good point!
:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:07 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
SDC stands for Structural Damage Capacity. And I find the phrasing 'SDC damage' plain stupid.
Especially since the introduction of MD/MDC (Mega-Damage/Mega-Damage Capacity) came into the PB lexicon.

I'm not really sure why 'structural' was added except to pad it out to a more recognizable initialism.

There was an initial contrast I guess because HP were "non-structural" because originally SDC was just for objects, but then when living beings started getting it, not rewording it caused the etymology to fall apart.

Maybe it means in the sense that your superficial skin layers are dead so they're structures?

"Hit points" never sounded like it excluded objects to begin with (not like "life points" for example) so I have no clue why they would change it for objects.

Perhaps we could reword SDC as "superficial damage capacity" (ie 'it's just a flesh wound') and rename HP "vital damage capacity" (VDC) to refer to how it is critical for continued operations?

You could give both to the living and machine alike.


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