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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:54 pm
  

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So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:57 pm
  

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A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:51 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:43 am
  

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For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:09 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

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Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:27 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

I like this enough that I am going to make it an official item in my games!

Crown of Xipe Totec
This horrific necromatic creation is the flayed and preserved of a Tattooed person that has been sewn into a cloak and is attached to a helm formed out of the victims skull!
PPE to merge: 100
The necromancer gains 20 MDC+1 per tattoo on the skin, the ability to speak the T-mans languages... and most horrifically they can use the tattoos as if they were their own! Level of the tattoo is one half that of the victim.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:20 am
  

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That is dark and evil, but I love it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:09 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:41 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.

The same way that a necromancer can cast the spells that a person knew.
Or gain their languages.
Or use their skills.
Or access their memories.
Because necromancy lets you access bits of their soul/PPE.
When you merge with the dead, while the merge is active, it is in some ways as if the thing is alive again in a limited fashion... and a part of you.
There are reasons that most people find Necromancers to be horribly squicky individuals and that the art is considered foul and dark. And this sort of thing is one of the reasons why. The core premise of the art involves tampering with souls and life forces.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 am
  

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Knight

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Given Statements in WB2 and WB21 though I find it unlikely this would work.
pg.85-WB2 "... can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed." and bit later "Removing layers of skin does not work as the tattoos are linked to the potential psyhic energy and essence of the individual and only reappear."

This to me reads like, a necromancer could take the skin/limb off, but the magic tattoos do not go with them as the link is severed.

The Necromancer's link comes across as "possession", which is called out numerous times to be a blocked off. So even if the link wasn't severed, which is unlikely IMHO, it couldn't be activated.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:41 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Given Statements in WB2 and WB21 though I find it unlikely this would work.
pg.85-WB2 "... can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed." and bit later "Removing layers of skin does not work as the tattoos are linked to the potential psyhic energy and essence of the individual and only reappear."

This to me reads like, a necromancer could take the skin/limb off, but the magic tattoos do not go with them as the link is severed.

The Necromancer's link comes across as "possession", which is called out numerous times to be a blocked off. So even if the link wasn't severed, which is unlikely IMHO, it couldn't be activated.

Two points. "the whole section of skin" is not "layers of skin" but more to the point...

When you kill the guy and take their entire skin and skull. At that point you are not taking just a swatch of skin your taking their entire skin and their essence.

I agree that just taking a bit of skin like the first idea wouldn't work. But that is why the idea ended up with a full skin cloak + Skull combo. Unless there is something elsewhere that says that Tattoo magic is some how special and that it some how is exempt from the usual rules of necromancy?
Because if you have the full skin + skull you have their essence and access to their entire magic... aka you have their tattoos.
Technically you don't even need their skin. Rules As Written just bonding the skull will cause the tattoos to appear on your skin for your use for the duration of the bond, that whole "the tattoos will reappear" thing.
But that isn't nearly as creepy thus I added the skull for added squick.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:44 am
  

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eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:14 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:49 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

I like this enough that I am going to make it an official item in my games!

Crown of Xipe Totec
This horrific necromatic creation is the flayed and preserved of a Tattooed person that has been sewn into a cloak and is attached to a helm formed out of the victims skull!
PPE to merge: 100
The necromancer gains 20 MDC+1 per tattoo on the skin, the ability to speak the T-mans languages... and most horrifically they can use the tattoos as if they were their own! Level of the tattoo is one half that of the victim.


A Necro-Tech could make this item usable by others?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:57 am
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

I don't think it will matter if they are lesser or greater SN. The only person who can use Tattoo magic is the person for whom it was intended (WB2 states this is 3 different places alone, a possessing entity can not activate/cancel T-magic, and there are examples in WB12 of symbiotic links with limitations on who can access what). The death of the T-man will also destroy the link connecting their potential psychic energy and essence with the tattoo themselves since the T-man's PPE would be released upon death.

Use of Tattoo magic will also incur some other issues. Does the Necromancer pay x2 the PPE cost for being a non-T-man? Is Tattoo Magic even compatible with the Necromancer abilities (for 7 or more tattoos would cancel out necromancer abilities, but without those abilities the necromancer can't use T-magic creating a paradox)? Just how many Magic Tattoos would appear? (all or limited to the sections taken from the T-man). T-magic can only be used by certain races, what if the Necromancer them-self is not a member of that small selection of races? (and if they are how does bonding with limbs from other races impact how the magic sees them, do they still retain human status for example if they also bonded to a Tiger's paw?)

There are a lot of thorny areas and the easiest explanation is that a Necromancer can't access T-magic, even if they bond with appropriate body parts.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:02 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

I don't think it will matter if they are lesser or greater SN. The only person who can use Tattoo magic is the person for whom it was intended (WB2 states this is 3 different places alone, a possessing entity can not activate/cancel T-magic, and there are examples in WB12 of symbiotic links with limitations on who can access what). The death of the T-man will also destroy the link connecting their potential psychic energy and essence with the tattoo themselves since the T-man's PPE would be released upon death.

Oh my yes in deed, it will matter vastly if they are lesser or greater.
If they are greater then they are just that... Greater Beings. Just like greater demons! In fact they become identical in every way that matters... and thus their skulls work just the same... including allowing the use of their magic in every way, shape and form.

And once again, this is not possession, nor is this symbiosis nor any other non-equivalent example.
Possessing entities and symbionts and other non-similar things do not gain access to, and the full use of, use of the hosts full magic powers.
Necromancers do.
Full Stop.
When the text says "all magical powers" that means "all magical power"
Again, Full Stop
This includes tattoos... unless we are to argue that tattoos are not a magical power of the T-Man. :lol:

ShadowLogan wrote:
Use of Tattoo magic will also incur some other issues. Does the Necromancer pay x2 the PPE cost for being a non-T-man?

For the duration of the merge who ever the skull is bonded to would effectively *be* a T-man would be the way I would run it (since
other wise they would have Tattoo magic and their other magic, and I think that is a no-no.
I say this because the definition of T-man is "has seven or more tattoos". No more no less. There is no "training period" or any other sort of qualifier. T-man status is a binary state with a threshold status. If Tattoo Less than 7 then Not T-Man. If Tattoo equal to 7 or more, then T-Man.
And if they now have 7 or more tattoos (which they have to because they are using the skull) that means that for the duration by the rules they are a T-man.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Is Tattoo Magic even compatible with the Necromancer abilities (for 7 or more tattoos would cancel out necromancer abilities, but without those abilities the necromancer can't use T-magic creating a paradox)?

That isn't a paradox in the slightest. It doesn't say that it cancels spells that the mage has running if they get another tattoo... the idea that this would happen is absurd.
Thus it simply means that if the Necromancer uses it on themselves, for the duration of the meld they are a T-man and can't use other powers.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Just how many Magic Tattoos would appear? (all or limited to the sections taken from the T-man).

All of them. The wording of the power is explicit "all magic possessed by the victim at half their level"
All means all.

ShadowLogan wrote:
T-magic can only be used by certain races, what if the Necromancer them-self is not a member of that small selection of races? (and if they are how does bonding with limbs from other races impact how the magic sees them, do they still retain human status for example if they also bonded to a Tiger's paw?)

That will be a GM call on a case by case.
There are two interpretations for the GM to choose from.
1) that the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... as seen from the point of the T-man. Thus if you use the skull of an Elf you get the weaker versions that the elf had and all that. And that thus you are using the soul/life force of the T-man via the skull as your interface and they work for whom ever it is bonded to. This has extensive president actually since the skulls allow the use of other restricted magic such as warlock spells, racial spells, clerical spells, and all other magic powers of the victim with no limitations or restrictions provided which is a pretty big deal when your talking about greater supernatural creatures and gods.
Or
2) That the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... but it is up to you to be able to 'interface' with it properly. Thus the skulls are only of use to the appropriate races (there is no canon support for this, but a GM who wishes to limit necromancers can go with this). This of course will then result in most of the best skulls getting nerffed as the GM just house-ruled away access to warlock magic, clerical magic, and all the other rare highly limited specialized and restricted magical powers that are often sought out.

ShadowLogan wrote:
There are a lot of thorny areas and the easiest explanation is that a Necromancer can't access T-magic, even if they bond with appropriate body parts.

The idea that "well, this looks complicated... so I am just going to ignore part of your class powers because it is simpler" is one of the worst possible reasons to assume that a power doesn't work. Especially in Palladium where everything is complicated already.
And especially since all the 'thorny areas' you presented aren't thorny at all and are, in fact, less of an issue that the basic power that is being used itself!

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:05 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.


It works because it connects with the underlying technology of all things Palladium: it's cool.

Logical sense is greatly over-rated in dealing with Palladium magic. "It's really cool" is a far better guiding principal.

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)

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