Stat check

[shiiv-a]

When asked to 'Check your IQ' .. i've initiated a 'rolls a d30' for said check. why?

some people have characters with IQ's maxed or near 24's .. and as a result will pass ANY d20 roll against their stat.

this evens the playing field for all characters. yes, high stats are really cool, but whats the point if all you need to do is look at something and state 'oh you have *issue at hand* connected wrong.

sure the guy may be a genius .. but even a genius may be stumped by something really simply solved by .. Joe Schmoe from the streets.

so yeah .. i like the d30 for a Stat check. makes it more interesting to see what happens.

[Jason Richards]

The only way rolling a check on a 20 works (mechnically speaking) is if you're comparing the differential to something. Like, on opposing strength rolls it's how much you beat your attribute by tht matters, or doing an I.Q. check, success varies based on by how much you beat the attribute.

But yes, D30s are ideal for this as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

Use percentile dice.

That's how you do it for defaulting skills, which is the closest thing Palladium has to an attribute check.

[shiiv-a]

ahh .. thanks for the support there Jason .. appreciate it

[asajosh]

The only way rolling a check on a 20 works (mechnically speaking) is if you're comparing the differential to something. Like, on opposing strength rolls it's how much you beat your attribute by tht matters, or doing an I.Q. check, success varies based on by how much you beat the attribute.

But yes, D30s are ideal for this as well.

I'm having a little trouble understanding your explanation Jason. Could you provide an example please?

[asajosh]

The only way rolling a check on a 20 works (mechnically speaking) is if you're comparing the differential to something. Like, on opposing strength rolls it's how much you beat your attribute by tht matters, or doing an I.Q. check, success varies based on by how much you beat the attribute.

But yes, D30s are ideal for this as well.

I'm having a little trouble understanding your explanation Jason. Could you provide an example please?

you roll 18
your opponent rolls a 12

you have IQ of 16 (your score is +2)
your opponent has IQ of 12 (+0)

your +2 beats his +0, so you win.

Ahh ty

and thats 400 posts

[BillionSix]

I would go for percentile. That way you could use it as a default roll for someone who doesn't have a skill.

If you have a skill in something, then it will almost certainly be higher than your stat, and will improve as you rise in level. But an unskilled person can still have a chance to know something. And a guy with a 20 IQ will have twice as much chance as someone as 10 IQ.

But really, I don't see the point of using a new die for basic stats. It will make it easier to succeed on a stat roll than a skill roll.

Of course, this is something that could be played by ear. You could vary the die according to the difficulty of the roll. A d20 would be good for something that an average person may or may not know, but a genius certainly would. If the character in question had a 24 IQ, then you could either waive the roll and say, "You know it," or say, "You only fail on a natural 20."
Just saying "You know it" would be good for a roll that is useful but not dramatically critical.
A d30 would be good for more challenging rolls. And a d100 for very difficult ones.

Brian

[Shorty Lickens]

Its situations like this that sometimes make me think the Shadowrun or D20 system is a little better. But I like the suggestions so far, thanks.

[t0m]

in ninjas and superspies it says opposed rolls (for example to escape a choke) the roll is d20+the stat you are rolling against (for a choke its ps, against a hold its pp). person with the highest roll wins. not sure if this has been changed in more recent books though.

[KillWatch]

They would pass and they SHOULD pass, but if it is really hard you could apply penalties. And don't play favorites it kind of sounds like penalizing someone for having great stats and there by making the still bright but not quite galactically brilliant 15 average who is going to make it half the time despite having hte IQ of 150 IRL

[DocS]

The only way rolling a check on a 20 works (mechnically speaking) is if you're comparing the differential to something. Like, on opposing strength rolls it's how much you beat your attribute by tht matters, or doing an I.Q. check, success varies based on by how much you beat the attribute.

But yes, D30s are ideal for this as well.

I'm having a little trouble understanding your explanation Jason. Could you provide an example please?

you roll 18
your opponent rolls a 12

you have IQ of 16 (your score is +2)
your opponent has IQ of 12 (+0)

your +2 beats his +0, so you win.

Does Palladum still do the 'stat of 10 has no functional difference from a stat of 14'? At least in the old way, that was a flaw since there was no effect on such rolls if the stats were less than 15

[KillWatch]

15 and sadly and bemoanfully yes

[KillWatch]

convert to percentile by x5% and then apply penalties

[DhAkael]

I would go for percentile. That way you could use it as a default roll for someone who doesn't have a skill.

If you have a skill in something, then it will almost certainly be higher than your stat, and will improve as you rise in level. But an unskilled person can still have a chance to know something. And a guy with a 20 IQ will have twice as much chance as someone as 10 IQ.

But really, I don't see the point of using a new die for basic stats. It will make it easier to succeed on a stat roll than a skill roll.

Of course, this is something that could be played by ear. You could vary the die according to the difficulty of the roll. A d20 would be good for something that an average person may or may not know, but a genius certainly would. If the character in question had a 24 IQ, then you could either waive the roll and say, "You know it," or say, "You only fail on a natural 20."
Just saying "You know it" would be good for a roll that is useful but not dramatically critical.
A d30 would be good for more challenging rolls. And a d100 for very difficult ones.

Brian

You'r forgetting one key point... this is NOt for skills.
This is just straight up "Brainstorm"... sorta like perception, but more all-purpose.
It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.
It is to make things EASY for both player and GM...period.

If you want to make things complex / harder for your-self, by all means, go ahead.

[DocS]

You'r forgetting one key point... this is NOt for skills.
This is just straight up "Brainstorm"... sorta like perception, but more all-purpose.
It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.
It is to make things EASY for both player and GM...period.

If you want to make things complex / harder for your-self, by all means, go ahead.

And your constructive alternative to the '%' idea is.......

Bash an idea, go ahead... but if you bash it without an alternative to replace it, it doesn't do anyone any good. There are no 'good' or 'bad' ideas, there is only 'the best idea that is currently on the table'. Yes, some ideas are better than others....

but no idea is bad all in itself. They are only bad when held up to a better one.

[DhAkael]

You'r forgetting one key point... this is NOt for skills.
This is just straight up "Brainstorm"... sorta like perception, but more all-purpose.
It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.
It is to make things EASY for both player and GM...period.

If you want to make things complex / harder for your-self, by all means, go ahead.

And your constructive alternative to the '%' idea is.......

Bash an idea, go ahead... but if you bash it without an alternative to replace it, it doesn't do anyone any good. There are no 'good' or 'bad' ideas, there is only 'the best idea that is currently on the table'. Yes, some ideas are better than others....

but no idea is bad all in itself. They are only bad when held up to a better one.

The contsructive alternative to percentiles has already been stated..

[shiiv-a]

hmm ... guess people just can't grasp the concept.

at the time i thought of it, i was dealing with chars that had IQ's of 20-24 .. and if it was at the 24, then they worked in an extra d6 roll.

the reason for it was then obvious.

it stops 'meta gaming'

... unless you've become so used to it that it doesn't ever ruin the games for people that aren't so intellectually endowed
MIGHT have a chance at getting some obscure thought of something that was said earlier in the game.

but as i said, you could be just overly powered [character wise] and you remember EVERYTHING that was ever said to you in the entire life of the game.

i know, that NONE of mine remember everything that happened about .. say ... two weeks ago .. until something is said IN game ... and then I, the player, remembers most of it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Switching to D30s only helps when a character's stats are under 30.
Otherwise you just run into the same problems as before.

[Killer Cyborg]

It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.

When exactly would you call for a PS check?
Or a PP check?
Or a PE check?

[DhAkael]

It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.

When exactly would you call for a PS check?
Or a PP check?
Or a PE check?

PS Check= for lifting in 'adverse conditions' extreme cold (muscles clench & shiver) and soft ground.
PP Check... not everyone has Gymnastics or Ninja's and super spies (which uses D20) for sense of ballance
PE Check = when an environmental condition NOT found in the saving throw tables becomes nearly intollerable (like extereme heat / cold / sun / wind, etc).

Really.. I figured since you guys are uber brains your selves, you'd have figured it out. It's pretty self evident.

[Damian Magecraft]

It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.

When exactly would you call for a PS check?
Or a PP check?
Or a PE check?

PS Check= for lifting in 'adverse conditions' extreme cold (muscles clench & shiver) and soft ground.
PP Check... not everyone has Gymnastics or Ninja's and super spies (which uses D20) for sense of ballance
PE Check = when an environmental condition NOT found in the saving throw tables becomes nearly intollerable (like extereme heat / cold / sun / wind, etc).

Really.. I figured since you guys are uber brains your selves, you'd have figured it out. It's pretty self evident.

being insulting about it is not the way to get your point across...
Percentile is the current best (least confusing for Players to follow) method. Plus I see few if any situations that would require a stat ceck of any stripe given the curent rules set....
here are the only times I see a need for stat checks....
recalling information (assuming it doesnt relate to a skill such as research)
concentration checks (there are no rules for this AFIK)
all others are covered by the rules set
example: need the PCs to notice something in a room? perception check, etc...

[Damian Magecraft]

PE Check = when an environmental condition NOT found in the saving throw tables becomes nearly intollerable (like extereme heat / cold / sun / wind, etc).

those are covered by the current rules set...with saving throws no less...

[goodhometownboy]

don't know if it has already been said ( i didn't read all of the post)

But what my house rule for stat roles are double there stat then roll d100

for example i have a iq of 15 double to 30 i roll a perctile a get a 28 i made it under my stat.. i do the same with all stat checkes except strength cause in my game everyone seems to have a 40 + strength

[Damian Magecraft]

hmm ... guess people just can't grasp the concept.

at the time i thought of it, i was dealing with chars that had IQ's of 20-24 .. and if it was at the 24, then they worked in an extra d6 roll.

the reason for it was then obvious.

it stops 'meta gaming'

... unless you've become so used to it that it doesn't ever ruin the games for people that aren't so intellectually endowed
MIGHT have a chance at getting some obscure thought of something that was said earlier in the game.

but as i said, you could be just overly powered [character wise] and you remember EVERYTHING that was ever said to you in the entire life of the game.

i know, that NONE of mine remember everything that happened about .. say ... two weeks ago .. until something is said IN game ... and then I, the player, remembers most of it.

if you half the attribute in question and then roll a d20 with the idea of low rolls are good and high is bad you can effectively have an attribute up to 40 without having to worry about it breaking and i don't very often see attributes higher than 30 so it has proven very usefull and consistent in my games.

i don't like the percentile system because a character with more than 16 is supposed to be extraordinary already. so that 16% chance to succeed at anything on a d100 seems ... rather low. even if you double an attribute it doesn't balance out quite right in my mind. a character with a 24 IQ is a genious and would still only have a 48% (less than 50/50!) chance of success.

by halfing the attribute and rolling d20 it works out much nicer in my opinion. an character with an IQ of 24 would need to roll 12 or under on a d20. at roughly 5% per side on a d20 thats a 60% chance of success instead of only 48%.

that does look as if it works well...but how do you handle opposed checks? for example...prowl vs perception?

[Damian Magecraft]

the current system is not set up at all to handle the case of prowl vs. perception at all (one of PBs shortcommings in my opinion). it seems more like it was designed to the effect that the prowler either sneaks past unnoticed (passing their test) or flubs up and is caught (fails their test) without the other character having to do anything at all.

i have handled it this way however (but only in rare cases) ... if the prowler fails their test this allows the observer a chance to catch the prowler. they essentialy get to make a standard perception check to see if they notice the prowler. if the observer succeeds in their perception check, they catch the prowler. if the observer fails their perception check, the prowler was very lucky and got away by the skin of their teeth and can continue to make new prowl checks to sneak past despite screwing up.

but for a contest of strength, as in an arm wrestle, where no skill is actually applicable i follow this method. each participant rolls a d20 vs. 1/2 their attribute score (in this case PS). the player that rolls the highest without rolling above 1/2 their attribute score wins the contest. if one of the contestants rolls over 1/2 their attribute score they flub up and lose in a dramatic fashion. if both roll over 1/2 their attribute score this means that ... well, any observers would be extraordinarly disapointed by the poor performance of both sides.

if a character was working on a puzzle where again there is no actual skill available, they simply roll a d20 vs. 1/2 their attribute score (in this case IQ) and any roll under 1/2 their attribute means they figured it out and any roll over means they ... well, remain puzzled. this works really well for players who have out of game knowledge, it allows them to make an IQ (or whatever) check to see if their character is smart enough to figure it out as well.

interesting...in the case of an arm wrestling event i use D20 + ps score high score wins (there is more to it but thats for another thread)

[DocS]

Really.. I figured since you guys are uber brains your selves, you'd have figured it out. It's pretty self evident.

Mmmm, I sense great anger, the Dark Side is *Strong* in this one... yessss.

[DocS]

...but how do you handle opposed checks? for example...prowl vs perception?

This has been a problem with the PB system since the beginning. I do always find it sad that despite an 'Ultimate Edition', there still is no 'canon' way to resolve sneaking past a guard. Sneaking past someone not paying attention you can do, but sneaking past a *guard*, there is no mechanic.

Some flaws are OK, so the Soul Drinking rules are a bit whacked, no biggie...

but how long and how many problems is it going to take before PB fixes its skill system? On the one hand, we fans do have fun thinking of house rules to make it 'usable', but on the other hand, I would prefer a functional system that we're trying to make *better* than a non-functional system that requires all this work in order to obtain simple 'usability'.

[KillWatch]

Attribute vs Skill = Attribute at half
so perception would be at half vs prowl
PPx5=Basic Balance/Coordination
etc
again applying penalties like Easy=-0, Difficult-25, Hard-50, Very Hard-75, Nigh Impossible-100, You are kidding me-150, Listen the gods said no-200

But I remove any caps on skills except liek the base attribute x10 So Scholastic skills with IQ 20=200.

Also (oh stop your cringing) Skill v Skill like Detect Concealment vs Prowl would be handled as thus:
Prowl=50 rolls 25 Succeeds by 25
Detect Concealment=50-25% for prowlers success rolls 26 and fails
perception v prowl
Succeeds by 25 = penalty of -25 vs non skill = -50%

[Killer Cyborg]

It is NOT to replace skills (or emulate skills that don't exist for the PC), it is NOT a Roll Vs. Roll.
It is to see if a character "Gets it".
This may also be applied to PS, PP and heck, even PE checks that don't fall under any 'canon' ruling.

When exactly would you call for a PS check?
Or a PP check?
Or a PE check?

PS Check= for lifting in 'adverse conditions' extreme cold (muscles clench & shiver) and soft ground.

If you want to make things more complex than they need to be.
There aren't rules for PS checks; you either have a high enough PS to lift/move the object or not.

PP Check... not everyone has Gymnastics or Ninja's and super spies (which uses D20) for sense of ballance

To emulate a skill that the PC doesn't have.
Gotcha.

PE Check = when an environmental condition NOT found in the saving throw tables becomes nearly intollerable (like extereme heat / cold / sun / wind, etc).

As far as I know, environmental conditions are already covered in the rules, without the need for attribute checks.

Really.. I figured since you guys are uber brains your selves, you'd have figured it out. It's pretty self evident.

I know how I do things; I don't know how you do things.
Or why.

Which is why I'm asking.

[Killer Cyborg]

...but how do you handle opposed checks? for example...prowl vs perception?

This has been a problem with the PB system since the beginning. I do always find it sad that despite an 'Ultimate Edition', there still is no 'canon' way to resolve sneaking past a guard. Sneaking past someone not paying attention you can do, but sneaking past a *guard*, there is no mechanic.

Agreed.

Back in the day, most systems were like this, but times have changed and these days the majority of systems, especially the major players, have clear rules for resolving attribute and skill contests.

[DocS]

Agreed.

Back in the day, most systems were like this, but times have changed and these days the majority of systems, especially the major players, have clear rules for resolving attribute and skill contests.

The closest thing I've seen to PB resolvig this issue was in the Supplement Road Hogs..... anyone remember that one? Didn't think so. But I do, It's a fond memory, Edison had just invented the Electric light, and it was among the first books that I was able to read at night. I barely remember the rules, all I remember is that we tried them and road-combat was downright unplayable.

Now it *would* seem reasonable for PB to take its skill/stat system and alter it so that it works on the opposed checks that its combat system is based off of....

but down that path lies nothing but insanity and darkness. Oh, The Darkness.

[The Beast]

PP Check... not everyone has Gymnastics or Ninja's and super spies (which uses D20) for sense of ballance

Last time I checked, that was a percent based skill found in all the main books.

[The Beast]

I use a percent-based system that I found here by one of us. Don't remember who did it, but he had multipliers for how easy a task was, and the chance for success capped at 98% like all skills.

[KillWatch]

I have a coordination check at 5%x PP. This isn't doing cartwheels acorss tight ropes this is getting hit by something and trying to keep on your feet or just not fall off the side of the building or simply trying to catch yourself before you become street pizza,.....

mmmm pizza

[The ineffible GM]

The ALMOST do the "No stat of 15 or below has any meaning". In Rifts Ultimate edition they brought in some rules for having stats of something like 7 or below give you penalties. Personally, I got the feeling that it was another band-aid solution trying to appease fans who had been complaining for years about the problems with 15 and below stats being meaningless, without having to actually address the dysfunctionality of their attribute system.

The percentile die roll vs. stat is the only one I've seen here so far that will work accross the board of the 'universal' Palladium system, because characters can get stats above 30 as well. I can't think of any instance off hand of anything having a stat of 100 or more, except perhaps the strength of gods.

This is not to say that you shouldn't be using the D30, use what makes for a fun game for you. Mechanically, I think it's flawed for some of the higher powered games (Rifts, probably Nightbane and Heroes too though) and so I wouldn't use it. For something like BTS I don't imagine you'll ever get characters with 30+ stats.

[Damian Magecraft]

As a second note something i forgot to add above this works great for opposed rolls as well such as in an arm wrestling competition to use and above example i saw

except fror when the tiers of strength are involved....a 10 ps and a 10 augmentd are not identical but by your mechanic they are

[DhAkael]

Yeesh... some people just don't seem to "get it" oh well.. at least 30% of the people on this thread managed to find an alternate that works..and KC... the PP check for ballance is to deal with people who have NO gymnastics or accrobatics skill..which are the only two skills that GIVE sense of ballance...try thinking before posting.

[KillWatch]

sense of balance I just imagined all of my past characters flopping around on the floor with your cinematic action movie fight scene music playing and firing a gun cuz they can't stand up