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 Post subject: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:25 pm
  

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hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?

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"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject: Re: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:08 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
bob the desolate one wrote:
hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?


Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

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 Post subject: Re: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:06 pm
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
bob the desolate one wrote:
hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?


Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

so a nightbane murder mage no reservations on that one?

_________________
"without order nothing exist without chaos nothing evolves"- adrian lake. pa 105

"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject: Re: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:16 pm
  

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bob the desolate one wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
bob the desolate one wrote:
hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?


Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

so a nightbane murder mage no reservations on that one?

Don't forget G.M. descretion, As a G.M. you have to know what could unbalance the game. If the occ works for you go for it and make it fun.

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 Post subject: Re: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:31 pm
  

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Ninjabunny wrote:
bob the desolate one wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
bob the desolate one wrote:
hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?


Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

so a nightbane murder mage no reservations on that one?

Don't forget G.M. descretion, As a G.M. you have to know what could unbalance the game. If the occ works for you go for it and make it fun.


well im kinda on the fence right now

_________________
"without order nothing exist without chaos nothing evolves"- adrian lake. pa 105

"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:13 pm
  

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Monk

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Nightbane that grow up on Rifts earth should have a Rifts OCC.

Nightbane are not all that unbalancing if played right. I would also sugest that you follow the convertion rules with in the nightbane main book to deture the player from turning into a munchkin.

If the Player wants a Mage OCC the use the PPE listing under Nightbane sorrcorer. NB Mystics are covered in the NB main, convertion being a few skill changes.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:25 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nightbane that grow up on Rifts earth should have a Rifts OCC.

Nightbane are not all that unbalancing if played right. I would also sugest that you follow the convertion rules with in the nightbane main book to deture the player from turning into a munchkin.

If the Player wants a Mage OCC the use the PPE listing under Nightbane sorrcorer. NB Mystics are covered in the NB main, convertion being a few skill changes.

dont hve the NB main book but i do have dark conversions but hes picking a o.c.c. which could possibly go munchkin i gotta talk to him some more is anybody familiar with the muder mage from rifter 8?

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"without order nothing exist without chaos nothing evolves"- adrian lake. pa 105

"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:19 am
  

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bob the desolate one wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nightbane that grow up on Rifts earth should have a Rifts OCC.

Nightbane are not all that unbalancing if played right. I would also sugest that you follow the convertion rules with in the nightbane main book to deture the player from turning into a munchkin.

If the Player wants a Mage OCC the use the PPE listing under Nightbane sorrcorer. NB Mystics are covered in the NB main, convertion being a few skill changes.

dont have the NB main book but i do have dark conversions but hes picking a o.c.c. which could possibly go munchkin i gotta talk to him some more is anybody familiar with the murder mage from rifter 8?


Is this an evil campaign? If not, you may want to think twice. They aren't called Murder Mages for no reason. At the same time, I wouldn't allow a combination like that. Nightbane can be bad enough on their own, without adding an O.C.C. If he's really wanting to play a magic using Nightbane, I'd have him stick to Nightbane Mystic or Nightbane Sorcerer.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:47 am
  

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seems a little weird combo, but if you're good with it, give it a try and then trash it if it doesn't work out.

I'm not sure but you might have to look at the OCC in the Rifter to make sure a Nightbane can take it (you're not really supposed to mix & match).

I'm not 100% sure but Nightbane in Rifts might be MDC.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 am
  

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gadrin wrote:
I'm not 100% sure but Nightbane in Rifts might be MDC.


They are in Morphus form, as per Dark Conversions. :)

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Yeah, everytime I see a blazingly obvious moron walking the streets... I think, "score one for the creationists..." ~ DLDC
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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:11 am
  

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if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:51 am
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE


Its one of Palladium's famous "Grey Areas"!
I've played a couple nightbanes in rifts earth with a couple GMs a while back (when it was still "Nightspawn") and we came to a concensus. In human form (facade) the human is just that: Human. SDC structure, can't use talents or any other morphus abilities, to psionic/magic probes they appear human with above average PPE. In the morphus, they are MDC and have access to all talents, etc. :demon:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:55 am
  

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Well that may be the end of that, re-reading murder mages: SDC non-supernatural creatures only...

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So just remember that its just the internet, and none of our opinions matter anyway, and you'll do fine. :)


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:04 am
  

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to asajosh: thanks for quoting the book, i knew there was RCC restrictions, but i do not have the book any longer so i could not look it up.

as for nightbanes being "human" while in facade form, i couldnt disagree more. it is called FACADE for a reason. the facade, or disguise if you will, may be very near perfect, but is still just a disguise, magic and psionic readings like see aura would still reveal that the character is not human. imo a nightbane isnt any more human in facade form than a dragon is a rabbit in rabbit form.

a nightbane is a supernatural being /creature of magic, i have seen several muchkin attemps to create nightbanes with OCCs that are only available to sdc humanoids, this one and battle magus are the two worst i have seen.

BE


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:50 pm
  

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asajosh wrote:
Blue Eyes wrote:
if my memory serves me correctly, nightbanes cannot become murder marges. unly sdc humanoids can become murermages, and a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human!!!! on rifts earth nightbanes are creatures of magic with MDC bodies!

BE


Its one of Palladium's famous "Grey Areas"!
I've played a couple nightbanes in rifts earth with a couple GMs a while back (when it was still "Nightspawn") and we came to a concensus. In human form (facade) the human is just that: Human. SDC structure, can't use talents or any other morphus abilities, to psionic/magic probes they appear human with above average PPE. In the morphus, they are MDC and have access to all talents, etc. :demon:

hmmm maybe have access to the murder mage abilitys in the facade form and not in morphus :-?

_________________
"without order nothing exist without chaos nothing evolves"- adrian lake. pa 105

"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:15 pm
  

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But here's the trouble, nightbane may remain human indeffinately. They don't "become" until the arrival of nightlords. So its perfectly plausible that there are nightbanes running around. untransformed, until a Nightlord shows up. THEN they can transform (Im paraphrasing from both Nightbane main book and Dark Conversions).

So there it is, you have a way for a human to train in magic, then a nightlord pops in, and you got your nightbane mage. :shock:

Since, theoretically, almost anyone can learn magic, why should a nightbane be unable to cast in the morphous and not the facade? Again, in the main NB book, there are magical OCCs that a NB can select. They can cast in either form.

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My original line of thinking goes along with asajosh...
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So just remember that its just the internet, and none of our opinions matter anyway, and you'll do fine. :)


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:06 pm
  

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asajosh wrote:
But here's the trouble, nightbane may remain human indeffinately. They don't "become" until the arrival of nightlords. So its perfectly plausible that there are nightbanes running around. untransformed, until a Nightlord shows up. THEN they can transform (Im paraphrasing from both Nightbane main book and Dark Conversions).

So there it is, you have a way for a human to train in magic, then a nightlord pops in, and you got your nightbane mage. :shock:

Since, theoretically, almost anyone can learn magic, why should a nightbane be unable to cast in the morphous and not the facade? Again, in the main NB book, there are magical OCCs that a NB can select. They can cast in either form.

i didnt say they couldnt cast magic but the abilities of the murder mage may not effect them in morphus b/c they become supernatural but they would still be able to use spell magic

_________________
"without order nothing exist without chaos nothing evolves"- adrian lake. pa 105

"i shall kill you until you die from it" hot shots part deux


glitterboy2098 wrote:

:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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 Post subject: Re: nightbane
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:37 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
bob the desolate one wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
bob the desolate one wrote:
hey everybody i have a player and friend in my game whos asking about a nightbane character that he wants to run which is no problem its a first for my game but how do you guys handle nightbane with o.c.c.'s :?


Let them have it?


works for me


Nekira.

so a nightbane murder mage no reservations on that one?


That's fine.

Though, sinse that's a magic using OCC, they'd have to use the rules for a NightBane Sorcerrer.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:45 pm
  

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i completely disagree, a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human. the fact that they appear human and are weak until the approach of the nightlords still does not change their RCC. a nightbane is a creature of magic/ supernatural being whether he or she knows it or not. if the OCC racial restrictions forbids supernatural beings as murder mages, then that clearly means that nightbanes cannot become a murdermage. that is my opinion, and i believe the entire idea has munchkin written all over it.

BE


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:54 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
as for nightbanes being "human" while in facade form, i couldnt disagree more. it is called FACADE for a reason. the facade, or disguise if you will, may be very near perfect, but is still just a disguise, magic and psionic readings like see aura would still reveal that the character is not human. imo a nightbane isnt any more human in facade form than a dragon is a rabbit in rabbit form.
I'd have to disagree, or it would be a VERY short life for nightbane. If they didn't appear 100% human, hunters and hounds, ect would have NO problem finding them. They see through ALL magic and psionic means of "disquise and concealment". You need a spell, sense nightbane, to detect them in facade. At best see aura shows an unusual aura, which could mean an illness, a non-numan, an alien ect but doesn't say which.

Blue Eyes wrote:
a nightbane is a supernatural being /creature of magic, i have seen several muchkin attemps to create nightbanes with OCCs that are only available to sdc humanoids, this one and battle magus are the two worst i have seen.

BE
While i disagree with you about the facade being human, i agree that a nightbane shouldn't be allowed to take murder mage unless they never change into thier morphus. If they do, no extra exp and no murder mage powers when in morphus form ect. I'd even go so far as to drop any extra EXP back to the base for his level if he switched and took morphus form (all extra stored EXP goes away if he no longer qualifies for the class). A little "straighting" of the rules will discourage "bending' the rules to make a munchkin.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:04 pm
  

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Believe it or not i really wasn't trying to be a super munchkin with this Nightbane murder mage. :D
I wanted to play him as a guy with this evil "secret identity". I mean he's evil all the time, but tries to hide in human society in his facade (Alter Aura, etc. helping hide the alignment, level), keeping his morphous a total secret even from other PCs. As a human, he'd probably try to pass himself off as a healer or apprentice mage. Harmless to mildly helpful. The best kind of evil is the kind that smiles and shakes your hand.
Oh well, I think I'll shelve him for a later time. Maybe he'll pop up as an NPC next time I GM :demon:

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My original line of thinking goes along with asajosh...
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Jesterzzn wrote:
So just remember that its just the internet, and none of our opinions matter anyway, and you'll do fine. :)


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
i completely disagree, a nightbane is a nightbane, not a human. the fact that they appear human and are weak until the approach of the nightlords still does not change their RCC. a nightbane is a creature of magic/ supernatural being whether he or she knows it or not. if the OCC racial restrictions forbids supernatural beings as murder mages, then that clearly means that nightbanes cannot become a murdermage. that is my opinion, and i believe the entire idea has munchkin written all over it.

BE
If you look at the sensitive to the supernatural ability in through the glass darkly, Facades do not detect as supernatural. They just aren't supernatural creatures in the form. Thier facades are in fact human (look at racial limitations in the conversion book) and are not supernatural in that form.

I should point out that in rifts, the only OCC's a nightbane can take are adventurer/scholors, basic grunt, bandit, thief, or smuggler (PG#163 dark conversions). So,if this is a rifts character being make, it doesn't work. If it's a nightbane game, murder mage is a rifts OCC and shouldn't exist thier. So, this is really a moot point.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:49 pm
  

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Hero

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In exchange for the Murder Mage OCC I was willing to sacrifice all nightbane talents. Rule bender yes, but its a better balance right? :D

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Be at peace, my people. All shall be looked up.
Carl Gleba wrote:
My original line of thinking goes along with asajosh...
Carl

Jesterzzn wrote:
So just remember that its just the internet, and none of our opinions matter anyway, and you'll do fine. :)


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:58 pm
  

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asajosh wrote:
In exchange for the Murder Mage OCC I was willing to sacrifice all nightbane talents. Rule bender yes, but its a better balance right? :D
Well, not much of a sacrifice. With the "free" exp, you'd be several levels ahead or the rest of your party in no time.

asajosh wrote:
tries to hide in human society in his facade (Alter Aura, etc. helping hide the alignment, level)
Also, nightbane do not get psionics, so the alter aura would be out.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:00 pm
  

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my point yes, you cannot separate the two forms, facade and morphus arent two different "beings" they are one, a nightbane, if you let people do some of the things suggested above then i think it could end in disaster. as an example i could use a dragon that casts the spell "metamorphosis human" and then trains hard to become a murdermage. this is not possible even though a metamorphosis human spell in fact changes the dragon into a human, at least for a short period of time.
the see aura ability allows psychics to spot human aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. this character is not human, hence i do not believe he could ever be trained, he would be spotted. thats my take on it

BE


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:04 pm
  

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He wouldn't be all that high if I had to play his morphus as a secret :) Which was the plan, but it's outta the bag now, so he'll almost certainly have to be an NPC now anyway. Oh well. <flush>

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Be at peace, my people. All shall be looked up.
Carl Gleba wrote:
My original line of thinking goes along with asajosh...
Carl

Jesterzzn wrote:
So just remember that its just the internet, and none of our opinions matter anyway, and you'll do fine. :)


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
my point yes, you cannot separate the two forms, facade and morphus arent two different "beings" they are one
Not true. Read spittin' image talent. The nightbane can seperate the two. He has 1 mind and 2 bodies.
Blue Eyes wrote:
as an example i could use a dragon that casts the spell "metamorphosis human" and then trains hard to become a murdermage. this is not possible even though a metamorphosis human spell in fact changes the dragon into a human, at least for a short period of time.
The dragon doesn't have 2 natural forms. Nightbane do.
Blue Eyes wrote:
the see aura ability allows psychics to spot human aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. this character is not human, hence i do not believe he could ever be trained, he would be spotted. thats my take on it

BE
Not quite right. It allow you to see that it isn't normal. It COULD be any and all of these things;aberrations, insanity, serious desease and wether the character is human or not. It however DOESN'T tell you which one. The character could be a mutant, insane a nightbane, AND/OR be diseased. Note that the OCC lets people in with aberrations, insanity, serious disease or any numbers of OTHER things that doesn't make them a supernatural being and would be seen by see aura.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:23 pm
  

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asajosh wrote:
He wouldn't be all that high if I had to play his morphus as a secret :) Which was the plan, but it's outta the bag now, so he'll almost certainly have to be an NPC now anyway. Oh well. <flush>
No, every time you kill someone you get free EXP for being a murder mage. The point of the OCC is a normal SDC creature that can kill even MDC creatures and eat thier life energy. The fact that the morphus isn't used doesn't change that fact. it just means that once you bring it your morphus, you'll be much higher in level.

It could be an interesting NPC if the GM doesn't mind bending the rules to allow a non-standard OCC.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:40 pm
  

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i would think that the fact that there exists a talent that makes the character split the two implies that they normally are not. i am sorry but i just dont buy it. i have played a nightbane a few times and "the becoming" natural ability states they appear to be human, after the becoming they have two identities, one facade and one monster. the monster form is the nightbanes true form, the human form is used to blend in. the nightbanes average lifespan says it all: unknown or 5000+ years.
the bottom line is, someone decided that murdermages can be sdc humanoids only, and a nightbane is a supernatural monster that is "conditioned" in that it can only unleash its powers when it reveals its true visage, the facade form is still a nightbane, but in human form. its not one mind sharing two bodies, its one mind one body that can change appearance. the "reshape facade" talent allows the nightbane to alter the appearance of the facade by spending PPE, this is not more than a simple metamorphosis ability, just like the one the dragon possesses. in fact a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms, nightbanes have "only" two (or more with special talents).

BE


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:03 pm
  

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I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest. :)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:12 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
i would think that the fact that there exists a talent that makes the character split the two implies that they normally are not. i am sorry but i just dont buy it. i have played a nightbane a few times and "the becoming" natural ability states they appear to be human, after the becoming they have two identities, one facade and one monster. the monster form is the nightbanes true form, the human form is used to blend in. the nightbanes average lifespan says it all: unknown or 5000+ years.
Well i'm looking at the conversion book and it states that "only HUMANS can be nightbane", Not that thier facade has to LOOK human. See the difference?
Blue Eyes wrote:
the bottom line is, someone decided that murdermages can be sdc humanoids only, and a nightbane is a supernatural monster that is "conditioned" in that it can only unleash its powers when it reveals its true visage, the facade form is still a nightbane, but in human form.
Not the point. The OCC states that you need to be a non-supernatural SDC creature and the fasade form qualifies. However, they are disqualified because the nightbane RCC doesn't allow them to take murdermage.
Blue Eyes wrote:
its not one mind sharing two bodies, its one mind one body that can change appearance.
It's clear to me that they are in fact ARE 2 different bodies. Heck, thier clothes can even disappear along with one of thier selves. However, the game is vague on this point.
Blue Eyes wrote:
the "reshape facade" talent allows the nightbane to alter the appearance of the facade by spending PPE, this is not more than a simple metamorphosis ability, just like the one the dragon possesses. in fact a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms, nightbanes have "only" two (or more with special talents).

BE
Sorry, "a dragon has almost an infinite of natural forms" is totally wrong. When the dragon activates his metamorphosis, he has to make a decision what form he changes into. None of the other forms are natural. A nightbane makes no such decision. He can only be one of his selves or the other.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:35 pm
  

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asajosh wrote:
In exchange for the Murder Mage OCC I was willing to sacrifice all nightbane talents. Rule bender yes, but its a better balance right? :D

oy sorry about that josh :oops:

edit: :oops: again i quoted the wrong post i meant to post the one about you flushing your charecter

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:50 pm
  

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Warwolf wrote:
I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest. :)
That would be awesome. :D As-is it's all vague enouph that you really can see it from both sides.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:08 pm
  

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yes it says "humans only" but that refers to the stats rolled when creating the facade form, nothing more. and the facade does have to look human, i think the word APPEAR human really settles that part of the argument. they appear human but they clearly are not. otherwise they would have written "they are human until they change form, then they are something else".

we agree, the nightbane RCC is not allowed to take the murdermage OCC, where we seem to disagree is why. i say its because they are not human, not in either form, they are nightbane, and you argue that they are in fact human in their facade form, but they cannot take the OCC because the dark conversions book forbids it - bottom line is the same result. imo an RCC is an RCC, it makes no sense to me that the nightbane switches from the nightbane RCC to human RCC when he or she goes from morphus to facade. i think that this is reading too much into the material and i do not think there are any grounds for it.

my point about the dragon was, that no matter what shape, the dragon is still a dragon, i believe the same to be true for the nightbane. a chiang-ku for example can maintain a metamorphosis for an infinite amount of time, he could be a cat for one thousand years. a nightbane could be in his facade form for one thousand years.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:28 pm
  

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elecgraystone wrote:
Warwolf wrote:
I'll forward this debate along to the new Nightbane writers. Perhaps they will be able to finally put debates like this to rest. :)
That would be awesome. :D As-is it's all vague enouph that you really can see it from both sides.

i kinda got to agree here i can see it from both your points of view but then again the crappy part is cannon backs both of your stories it really needs a mod to sound off on it :ugh:

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:lol: just imagine the Hamster Airforce, with the furballs flying ducted fan Scale F-86's....and providing air support for the Rodent Armored Cav, in RC tanks...


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:35 pm
  

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and they clearly cannot be human because all humans have 25% chance for having psionic powers, nightbanes never have psionics, therefore they cannot be human...

BE


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:49 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
and they clearly cannot be human because all humans have 25% chance for having psionic powers, nightbanes never have psionics, therefore they cannot be human...

BE
Not so, nightbane just come from the 75% of humans that do not have psionics. :D

Bottom line the RCC states that all nightbane have to be human. IMO that means that they ARE human. If you read the RCC differently, then so be it. There isn't enouph proof on either side to say 100% that either one of us either right or wrong.

I'll agree to disagree whith you on this until they fully explain thing in future nightbane books. (i hope)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:31 pm
  

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Just my .o2, but some slightly related issues.

A duel class earth warlock/murdermage decides to cast transfer intellect to move his essence into a Golem. I don't know what abilities a Murder Mage possesses, but would the character lose them because he no longer qualifies.

Would an immortal character be considered human? One who recieved immortality through divine intervention.

For that matter what about a MegaHero from HU. What if they were created through an accident that a MurderMage had. (Experiment)

I am sure there are other ways, but these are all of the ways I can think of for a human to become supernatural. And as far as I understand, a NB is human until the becoming.
The last comment I have is what happens to a NB that is killed in a Morphus form, versus a NB killed in the facade.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:53 pm
  

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Dumb Dwarf wrote:
Just my .o2, but some slightly related issues.

A duel class earth warlock/murdermage decides to cast transfer intellect to move his essence into a Golem. I don't know what abilities a Murder Mage possesses, but would the character lose them because he no longer qualifies.
Not SDC anymore, loses the ability to use them

Dumb Dwarf wrote:
Would an immortal character be considered human? One who recieved immortality through divine intervention.
Immortality makes you MDC.

Dumb Dwarf wrote:
For that matter what about a MegaHero from HU. What if they were created through an accident that a MurderMage had. (Experiment).
It makes you a supernatural being, so no go on being a murder mage.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:02 am
  

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hey

elecgraystone wrote: "Not so, nightbane just come from the 75% of humans that do not have psionics."

again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.

i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.

once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.

Razon wrote: "Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too.. "

i must admit i havent looked for this, so if it s true then please state the page number. i still feel this would back up my understanding of how the nightbane is to be perceived. the "nightbane humanoid" adapts to the society he or she lives in, they APPEAR to be but they are not humans, not elves, not dwarves they are nightbane!

BE


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:34 am
  

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RAZON wrote:
Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too..
No it doesn't. It states that race must be human. Check the RCC out.

Blue Eyes wrote:
i must admit i havent looked for this, so if it s true then please state the page number. i still feel this would back up my understanding of how the nightbane is to be perceived. the "nightbane humanoid" adapts to the society he or she lives in, they APPEAR to be but they are not humans, not elves, not dwarves they are nightbane!
I think looking at the dark conversion book would get you to understand what i'm talking about. It clearly states on page #162, "Racial limitation:Only HUMANS can be nightbane". Not "there facade anways APPEARS human". Must be human is just that, must be human.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:39 am
  

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RAZON wrote:
Dark Conversions says they can be any race, not humans only - elves and so on can be banes too..


'Fraid not, bud. Dark Conversions page 162.
Racial Limitation: Only humans can be Nightbane.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:53 am
  

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lol okay u chose to comment on my side note, below i have reposted my main argument that you conveniently avoided. and again, the reference to humans in race restrictions refers to the attrubutes rolled, use the human as a platform - nothing more.

again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.

i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.

once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.

after the becoming, the "nightbane human" or "human" is reborn and becomes a nightbane. a creature that comes in thousands of different guises, but all of them have one particular ability in common, they can appear human.

BE


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:44 am
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
lol okay u chose to comment on my side note, below i have reposted my main argument that you conveniently avoided. and again, the reference to humans in race restrictions refers to the attrubutes rolled, use the human as a platform - nothing more.
If that's the case then why print all the stats? The fact is they HAVE to be human, not appear human.

Blue Eyes wrote:
again i think you use an argument that there is no bias for whatsoever, you read something into the text that just isnt there. when it states that nightbanes NEVER have psionic powers, not even their mystics, then its because they do not possess such powers. 25% of humans possess such powers, so if humans are nightbanes, then 25% of them should have psionics, or at least the mystics should have.
You are reading something that isn't there. Not being able to be psychic has nothing to do with thier being human. They use talents instead of psionics. it's a different focus. Thier PPE is focused into thier nightbane powers, leaving none left over for psionics.

Blue Eyes wrote:
i think the entire idea is put wrong in the first place, its a non-existend dilemma if you will. nightbanes are "humans" with the potential of the supernatural within them. i would classify this as an entirely different species - a nightbane, but at this stage they are still sdc humanoids. this potential for the supernatural will only be awakened if the nightlords ever come near them or threaten their homeworld or dimension in any way. this nightbane species may never develop their supernatural powers, they may be dormant forever, they are like the antibodies of the nightlords. in this dormant state they may learn magic, become murdermages or whatever (except psychics). but imo this would destroy their potential for developing their other supernatural powers, in effect you have a "human" or "nightbane human facade" that has become a murdermage and thereby suppressed his other dormant supernatural abilities, he would never develop them, not even if the nightlords are coming, his potential for the supernatural developed in a different direction. in effect he is a human murdermage, he will never suspect anything else.
Nice idea, but no basis in fact.

Blue Eyes wrote:
once the dormant powers have been awakened then the "nightbane human" is no longer human but a supernatural creature, and in this case he could never become a murdermage because the OCC racial restrictions forbid it as, does the conversion book (dark) which limits the OCC selection drastically.
IMO they are always human AND nightbane. Until the becoming, they just haven't learned how to take on there nightbane form. But again, no basis in fact because the book are vague. It's my best guess based on what i've read.

Blue Eyes wrote:
after the becoming, the "nightbane human" or "human" is reborn and becomes a nightbane. a creature that comes in thousands of different guises, but all of them have one particular ability in common, they can appear human.

BE
Yep, appear human because they ARE human IMO. Again, you might be right or i might be right.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:49 am
  

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The whole concept of "Nightbanes are not human and cannot learn Magic OCCs" when the nightbane book has rules for two magic nightbane OCCs doesn't seem logical to me. In my campaigns I'll just use the ideas in NB main book for the NB Sorcerror and adapt to other magic OCCs. EXAMPLE: Choose a magic OCC? No NB Talents (or maybe one) ever. The learning of magic is counter-intuative to NB Talents (NB mainbook). Seems a simple, sensible enough interpretation of the rules. :D

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:55 am
  

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elecgraystone wrote:
IMO they are always human AND nightbane. Until the becoming, they just haven't learned how to take on there nightbane form. But again, no basis in fact because the book are vague. It's my best guess based on what i've read.


Ahh but if the books weren't vague then there would be no wiggle-room for GMs, nor would we get to have these lengthy discussions :)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:59 am
  

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hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one :), no reason to continue in the same track really.

to asajosh: elesgraystone and i actually agree that nightbanes cannot be murdermages, we just have different reasons and arguments, you should be happy, you have 2 arguments as to why a nightbane cannot be a murdermage, take them and use them or dont, it is up to you. neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really :)

BE


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:07 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one :), no reason to continue in the same track really.

to asajosh: elesgraystone and i actually agree that nightbanes cannot be murdermages, we just have different reasons and arguments, you should be happy, you have 2 arguments as to why a nightbane cannot be a murdermage, take them and use them or dont, it is up to you. neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really :)

BE


Indeed, good arguments all. :)
It was the whole duality of the character that appealed to me. A "human" who appears to be an apprentice mage/healer. But when he's alone (away from the PCs), the nightbane comes out to play with all his murder mage evilness hehe! the BEST part for me would be to see how long the GM and I can keep the other PCs from knowing th truth of this character! :D

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:47 pm
  

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Blue Eyes wrote:
hehe i enjoyed this discussion, but i think you are right elecgraystone, we will probably never agree in this one :), no reason to continue in the same track really.
Agreed. Nice debate.

Blue Eyes wrote:
neither of us ever said that nightbanes cannot become spellcasters because they can, the problem here is wether they specifically can become murdermages because that OCC has restrictions. if you want to play a nightbane sorceror in rifts then just roll one up using the OCC in the NB main book and then adjust to the rifts setting - simple really :)

BE
:oops: WELL not quite true. In rifts, for some unknown reason, nightbane can't be practicioners of magic. That's not to say they can't cast magic. They CAN be demon quellers since they are adventurer/scholors. (which would ROCK as a combo) IMO it's silly and it's a great place to break the rules and add a house rule. I'd limit the picks to the rough equivilent of the nightbane picks however (IE mystics and LLW)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:15 pm
  

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demon quellers?? the name sounds familiar but can't place it. what book are they in please? thanks

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