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 Post subject: Quick Parry Question
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:48 am
  

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During my last PF game I had a player that wanted to parry a 8 lb. sledge hammer with a knife. The character, who wanted to parry with his knife, had a better strength than the attacker (by about 3 points), but I still ruled that he wasn't able to do so. The player had a legit arguement by saying that he had a bonus to parry with a knife. My opinion was that even though the character had the ability to parry with the knife- he had the weight and velocity of a heavier object to parry. The knife blade is about 7 inches long.

My question is whether or not other GMs out there would let their players be successful at this? I like more realism in the games that I GM and think that I was justified in my "call," but wanted to see what others thought about it.

Thanks :)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:29 am
  

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just depends on how you see it. Logically if the sledge is coming down there is no way a knife is going to be able to parry it. But should the knife weilder intercept the attacker before he gets to the down arc of his swing, I can see a parry.

I'm never in "you can't do that" camp. I play along "well lets imagine how you can do that" easier on the rules, I've found.

Plus you start bringing up complicated rules questions for the system, and in addition you see an upswing in Vibro-Sledgehammer sales :P

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:56 am
  

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I'm the same way when it comes to giving the player a chance, but in this situation the player was attacked with the sledgehammer coming from above. Even a side swing wouldn't be able to be blocked by a knife, but I would give the character some sort of chance to use the knife to protect himself :)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:03 pm
  

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I would have allowed it, but with a difficulty penalty. I have seen a black belt kung-fu instructor parry a baseball bat with an ink pen once, so I know it is possible.

But I wouldn't make it easy.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:06 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
I would have allowed it, but with a difficulty penalty. I have seen a black belt kung-fu instructor parry a baseball bat with an ink pen once, so I know it is possible.

But I wouldn't make it easy.


That's true, but this guy is 1st level :D Far from a Black belt in anything.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:24 pm
  

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I'd allow it.

The two rules I try and GM by:

Keep it Simple

Keep it Fun

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:31 pm
  

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CaptRory wrote:
I'd allow it.

The two rules I try and GM by:

Keep it Simple

Keep it Fun


I understand that, but I use a little realism in my games :)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:38 pm
  

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Not just simply raising the knife to block the sledgehammer, that would be stupid.

But it is more than plausible a person would be able to use the knife to deflect the hammer off-course, and sidestep so that the blow doesn't land. Hell, I can probably do that, and I'm only a grey belt in mc-slap semper-fu.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:45 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
Not just simply raising the knife to block the sledgehammer, that would be stupid.

That's what I was thinking.

But it is more than plausible a person would be able to use the knife to deflect the hammer off-course, and sidestep so that the blow doesn't land. Hell, I can probably do that, and I'm only a grey belt in mc-slap semper-fu.


Grey Belt- Nice :ok: I'm looking for a DVD about the MCMAP. That wasn't being used back when I was enlisted :P

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:52 pm
  

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Trust me, line-training was probably 100% more effective.

MCMAP is very watered-down, and less about killing/mutilating and instead more about nonlethal restraint, counters to chokes/holds and ground fighting. Compared to line training videos I've seen, MCMAP is a joke.

...It does however provide a solid foundation for those who wish to take it to the next level.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:04 pm
  

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Ask my players, I'm big on realism, but there are any numbers of ways to Parry X with Y. And in the name of keeping play fast and light I'll let my players try almost anything.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:05 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
Trust me, line-training was probably 100% more effective.

MCMAP is very watered-down, and less about killing/mutilating and instead more about nonlethal restraint, counters to chokes/holds and ground fighting. Compared to line training videos I've seen, MCMAP is a joke.

...It does however provide a solid foundation for those who wish to take it to the next level.


Seriously? I didn't expect that :eek:

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:21 pm
  

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MCMAP is broken down into three basic tenets:

1) Syllabi (the actual techniques)
2) Conditioning Exercises
3) Guided discussion

Each belt (from tan, to grey, to green, to brown, to black) builds on the previous level. Tan belt teaches the basic fundamentals, like angles of movement, break-falls, basic blocking and striking, and basic principles of throws (entry, off-balance, execution).

Each belt you go up teaches you more techniques, building on those basic fundamentals. What's good about this program is that once you become proficient in the fundamentals, you can adapt the techniques to different situations. It's a very flexible program, much like MMA.

The CCDs and CCEs (Combat Conditioning Drills/Exercises) are the bag drills, buddy drags, etc. designed to break you off and keep you in good fighting shape.

The Guided Discussion is something that must be entirely new for you, because instead of just getting out there and getting some, MCMAP instructors must now teach students about Core Values, and other issues like domestic violence, sexual harrassment, etc. in addition to the actual MA instruction.

And of course, other lessons include the continuum of force (force escalation) and proper use of force. So now instead of just turning Marines into killing machines, the Corps is teaching them when and how to apply what they have learned. This means (hopefully) no more drunken Marines snapping necks in bar brawls.

Also with the addition of the belt system, Marines are now instructed according to rank and the corresponding level of maturity and responsibility that goes with that rank. For example: Nonrates (E-3 and below) can only be instructed up to green belt. E-4's may learn brown, and Sgts and up are eligible to be trained in black belt techniques.

NOTE: Because of the implied maturity, a MCMAP green belt is considered to be a "lethal weapon" and can face stiffer charges and penalties if involved in an altercation while out in public.

The Colored belt system was proposed by General Krulak (I think) and was introduced in 1996, after it was observed that the South Koreans were conducting similar training.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:07 pm
  

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I think it'd be easier to just duck and roll, wouldn't it? However, since that's not the point . . .

I agree with cyber-yuko, though I think I'm firmly in the realm of "let it happen" for this one. If he could get the knife blade up to parry the haft of the hammer, he would have a lot more leverage to stop it properly. But if it's just the knife blade against the steel/metal hammer head, I could see him deflecting it, with maybe some damage to the character as the shock of the blow hits into him (the momentum of the swing doesn't just vanish), and a lot of damage to the knife itself.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:13 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
MCMAP is broken down into three basic tenets:

1) Syllabi (the actual techniques)
2) Conditioning Exercises
3) Guided discussion

Each belt (from tan, to grey, to green, to brown, to black) builds on the previous level. Tan belt teaches the basic fundamentals, like angles of movement, break-falls, basic blocking and striking, and basic principles of throws (entry, off-balance, execution).

Each belt you go up teaches you more techniques, building on those basic fundamentals. What's good about this program is that once you become proficient in the fundamentals, you can adapt the techniques to different situations. It's a very flexible program, much like MMA.

The CCDs and CCEs (Combat Conditioning Drills/Exercises) are the bag drills, buddy drags, etc. designed to break you off and keep you in good fighting shape.

The Guided Discussion is something that must be entirely new for you, because instead of just getting out there and getting some, MCMAP instructors must now teach students about Core Values, and other issues like domestic violence, sexual harrassment, etc. in addition to the actual MA instruction.

And of course, other lessons include the continuum of force (force escalation) and proper use of force. So now instead of just turning Marines into killing machines, the Corps is teaching them when and how to apply what they have learned. This means (hopefully) no more drunken Marines snapping necks in bar brawls.

Also with the addition of the belt system, Marines are now instructed according to rank and the corresponding level of maturity and responsibility that goes with that rank. For example: Nonrates (E-3 and below) can only be instructed up to green belt. E-4's may learn brown, and Sgts and up are eligible to be trained in black belt techniques.

NOTE: Because of the implied maturity, a MCMAP green belt is considered to be a "lethal weapon" and can face stiffer charges and penalties if involved in an altercation while out in public.

The Colored belt system was proposed by General Krulak (I think) and was introduced in 1996, after it was observed that the South Koreans were conducting similar training.


Like you said- we did the good 'ol line training, but I still would like to have learned the MCMAP as well :) Have you heard of a MCMAP CD out there anywhere?

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:25 pm
  

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Not that I know of. You could try online, or check out your local military surplus store. I think there's a store out here in oceanside that sells videos of that kind of stuff.

The only USMC HtH videos I've ever seen have been the old-school line training.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:27 pm
  

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That's all I've been able to find here too.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:42 pm
  

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I thought MCMAP was basicly watered down Judo?

My ex roommate who took it said thats what it was, and derived from.

But thats taking someones word for it, don't know first hand.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:50 pm
  

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Not really. It is a bunch of different things, mixed together. You have some judo-type throws, some jiu-jitsu-type chokes and holds, some karate-type strikes and blocks, some grappling, some knee and elbow strikes, etc.

I would consider it a watered-down MMA, not any one form in particular. But we learn it as one "form," which is MCMAP.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:55 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
Not really. It is a bunch of different things, mixed together. You have some judo-type throws, some jiu-jitsu-type chokes and holds, some karate-type strikes and blocks, some grappling, some knee and elbow strikes, etc.

I would consider it a watered-down MMA, not any one form in particular. But we learn it as one "form," which is MCMAP.


You realize ju-jitsu became judo, unless you are talking about the Brazilian variety?

However what you describe sounds exactly like basic Judo. Kodokan Judo is the one where it is only throws and holds. I am a Shodan Black belt in Judo (dislike kodokan) and Black belt in Escrima.

I'd like to see videos of it also just to compare it.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:08 pm
  

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Just say that the character slams his daggering into the handle of the sledgehammer on its backswing, and that is how he was able to parry.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:15 pm
  

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Lucky wrote:
Not really. It is a bunch of different things, mixed together. You have some judo-type throws, some jiu-jitsu-type chokes and holds, some karate-type strikes and blocks, some grappling, some knee and elbow strikes, etc.

I would consider it a watered-down MMA, not any one form in particular. But we learn it as one "form," which is MCMAP.


Hey man- we should come up with a Hand to Hand style that's a combination of MCMAP and good 'ol Line Training for a Marine OCC. Then again- I was never very impressed with the Marine OCC in Rifts Underseas :P

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:21 pm
  

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Nulsyn wrote:
Lucky wrote:
Not really. It is a bunch of different things, mixed together. You have some judo-type throws, some jiu-jitsu-type chokes and holds, some karate-type strikes and blocks, some grappling, some knee and elbow strikes, etc.

I would consider it a watered-down MMA, not any one form in particular. But we learn it as one "form," which is MCMAP.


You realize ju-jitsu became judo, unless you are talking about the Brazilian variety?

However what you describe sounds exactly like basic Judo. Kodokan Judo is the one where it is only throws and holds. I am a Shodan Black belt in Judo (dislike kodokan) and Black belt in Escrima.

I'd like to see videos of it also just to compare it.


You may find a great deal of similarity. But I can assure you that MCMAP was assembled out of spare parts of about a dozen other arts and programs. I would classify it as a MMA before anything else, with an emphasis on lethal/disabling strikes and nonlethal restraints/submission.

There's even a little bit of Silat in there.


Here is the Wikipedia entry on MCMAP. It doesnt specify which forms are included in the syllabi, but it gives a good overview.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:57 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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I think you ruled it just fine it just that bill is a fisher and a complianer you did fine remember GM is god so put down the law... lol


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:08 am
  

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In theory it is very possible to parry a sledgehammer with a knife.
You'll have to be able to divert the kinetic energy.
I would allow it but give him a minus 4 or more depending on the foe's strenght. However, the rules don't say anything on this subject so in the end it all depends on the roll of the dice (ruleswise).

There is no such thing as a quick parry question :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:04 am
  

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Yea, that is the truth.

Someone tried to say that moving your head out of the way of a punch was a dodge, not a parry.

A dodge is movement sufficient enough to use up an attack... moving your head a few centimeters is not movement sufficient enough to use up an attack.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:16 pm
  

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Hero

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Also, most HtH parries (IRL) require some type of movement, sidestepping or what have you as well as the actual parrying motion.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:02 pm
  

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Yea, it can get complex fast in game terms.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:57 am
  

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to retaliate against an attack it is generally more efficient to parry while moving into postition. Generally this involves parrying while moving out of the way. No one is going to stand still with a guy swinging a sledge at him. Not to mention the fact that a parry is often not weapon on weapon but weapon on arm or hand.


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