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 Post subject: Skills and leveling
Unread postPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:48 pm
  

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When I first began playing Rifts (way back when it first came out and Dinosaurs roamed the Earth) I found that the Skills system didn't really jive with leveling up. Not that I minded having my skills rocket up to 98% without having to use them, but when I made the switch from player to GM I began thinking about how one advances their own skills in the real world. I decided to keep track of which skills were used by players and only allow the skills that got "exercise" to advance. This actually proved to be a good method for motovating my players to keep their skills in mind and prompted a bit more role playing and less shooting.

My question is, has anyone else done this, or something similar? One thing I thought of was randomizing the percentage that skills went up by how often a skill was used....but I could just be having an obsessive episode.... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Skills and leveling
Unread postPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:50 pm
  

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::Darkstone:: wrote:
When I first began playing Rifts (way back when it first came out and Dinosaurs roamed the Earth) I found that the Skills system didn't really jive with leveling up. Not that I minded having my skills rocket up to 98% without having to use them, but when I made the switch from player to GM I began thinking about how one advances their own skills in the real world. I decided to keep track of which skills were used by players and only allow the skills that got "exercise" to advance. This actually proved to be a good method for motovating my players to keep their skills in mind and prompted a bit more role playing and less shooting.

My question is, has anyone else done this, or something similar? One thing I thought of was randomizing the percentage that skills went up by how often a skill was used....but I could just be having an obsessive episode.... :D


We tried out something similar with my old GM. We started all skills with the base + IQ and when you used the skill, it would progress one point.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:40 am
  

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My buddy and I actually tore the entire skill system apart at one point and went to a percentage based point buy system which covered literally everything. It was fun to work on and made things infinitely customizable, but when we looked at bringing it into our actual gaming group and realized the kind of support we'd have to dole out just to get characters made, we put it on the shelf.

The original idea was to get around that "everything just goes up" angle and reward things like teaching and training more. In the end though, when we really looked at it, we tended to run skill and role play heavy games anyway. While a character might have a skill or two which wasn't used in a level, it wasn't a big deal. In the end, we went for the simplicity of the current skill system. It's not perfect, but it's easy to live with and easy to track.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:20 am
  

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What I like to do is give skills that were used quite alot during that level an additional +5% that level and skills that weren't used at all 0% that level and skills that were used at least once but not very often just the normal % per level.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 6:52 pm
  

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The way I see it, is that the skills don't actually go up, as you become more experience, but your ability to use them under stress does. You are hardened by experience.
I wouldn't really require skill check under stress-free circumstances, but if you had to make an auto mechanics roll under less than ideal conditions, you'd roll.
As you become more experienced, and gained levels, your ability to perform would improve.

Won't work in all circumstances, but it's a good way to see it, I think.

Brian

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:07 am
  

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In one game we had it where every 5 times you used a skill it went up one percent. But everyone got tired of keeping track, and it fell to the wayside rather quickly.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:40 am
  

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I think I see this exact topic concerning every game, aat least once every year.

It always boils down to a lot of tracking , and the idea is to have fun.

So it is not really realistic to automatically go up in skills. Its not exactly a reality based game either.

Enjoy the game.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:25 am
  

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hello :)

i did the exact same thing as you darkstone a few years back because my players didnt realize that their skills could help them alot, it was a little too much blasting away and a too little roleplaying and using skills. i have removed the rules again now, because the players now know that their skills are a great asset and that they should use them whenever possible and applicable.

BE


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:27 pm
  

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If you want more reality i think you have to jettison the skill system completely and start your own. Wilderness survivial for instance should not be a skill category but a skill itself. Definitions of what can be accomplished at level 1, level 2 etc should possibly be spelled out. Those that specifically cannot be accomplished a dice roll should be made against base percentage. Inserting modifiers based on the difficulty of the task (easy +15, routine +0, hard -15) should be taken into account as well.

For instance a Level 1 character with the Wilderness Survival skill can say identify edible plants, pitch a tent, trap small animals in the wilderness, always find north, can recognize campfires and do basic things most young boy scouts can do. For anything else, or if in doubt, roll against base percentage. A Level 2 character can hunt with a short bow (although not very well, assess a penalty to bowmanship), camouflage himself into the wild, recognize poisonous plants, increase his cooking and fishing skill as well as his track animals skill. (bonus to general wilderness survival skill when performing these actions). At level 3 have him able to construct small river boats, identify medicinal herbs (low percentage) etc.... and what those are ultimately are based on you as GM or in conjunction with your players.

and you increase incrementally based on your ideas of what a high level wilderness ranger can acoomplish. You also start inserting special powers at higher and higher levels.

Alternatively you can just play it straight. Or take a page out of the Elder Scrolls and/or Silkroad sagas. Give him every skill but divide his skills up into primary, major, minor and miscellaneous. the primary start off with a big bonus say 35% the majors 25 the minors 10 and the miscellaneous 5 (or less-I'd base the percentages on the type of character he is-man at arms, miscellaneous, magic, thief, pcc). Everytime a skill is used it goes up 1 point (or 1 point for unsuccess, 2 points for success). At 10 points the skill goes up 1 percentage. Or use a sliding scale. At low percentages use the 1-10. At level 3 1-25 at level 7 1-50 at level 10 1-100 or something.

If you do it this way you'll have to decide on a mechanism for player level advancement. This would either be arbitrary (if i have a set storyline setup I'll usually advance a player based on his triumphs throughout the progression of the story- the defeat of a major adversary (or a collection of minor ones), the solving of a difficult puzzle, an arduous journey....whatever.

Or you can use the experience table chart provided by the book, or you can have overflow reservoir where skill points are transferred to experience points...meaning if I have 7 pick lock skill points (from successfully or perhaps unsuccessfuly tries at attempting a lock) i may opt to put 2 of those points into my experience points. This would signify that some of my awareness in failure/success with picking locks has translated into my growth as a character. Or you could just make the failures go into experience points since it is said most people grow more from their failures then their successes.

Some combination of all these methods can be instituted as well: GM arbitrariness, typical experience chart, and skill overflow. However I would completely or at least partially divorce level advancement with skill advancement. Skill advancement would contribute to level advancement but level advancement would not necessarily (or indirectly) contribute to skill advancement.

I would for instance apply level advancements to the Primary attributes (IQ, PP, PE bonuses to strike, parry or damage, whatever) and/or specifically to the skills which were most used to achieve this new level of awareness. As a GM I would give the player a set of choices or conference with him as to what skills/bonuses/stats should increase based on his individual performance. If the character was a thief who has leveled up primarily through picking locks I would increase his PP stat (by 1 or by a d4 or something) and his pick lock skill by a huge bonus (somewhere between 10 and 35%, a roll might be in order to determine the increase) and leave everything else alone (including his hit points). I might also give him a bonus to ME depending on the difficulty of the locks as well as IQ. If however he was drawing on a variety or thieving skills i would increase all those skills by 5-10 percent. If he was fighting instead of thieving i'd increase either his PP, PS, or PE or all depending on how well he struck, damaged, and survived. Bonuses to weapon would apply. However his skills in thieving would not be upgraded cause he didn't use them. Hit points and SDC would primarily be increased by a physical training school or regimen and possibly combat (although i think combat should increase strikes, dodges and parries and attributes ME, PP, PS, PE and be somewhat divorced from channelling directly into increasing body strength.)

Another idea (or the same i can't remember) where i posted somewhere else is---

Rifts skill percentages seem off. To me they are too low. You might want to do a four or five step level instead of the current Secondary, OCC Related, and OCC Skills. The other thing is the Professional Idea. A professional is not always better skill wise at something than an amateur but he does have a greater idea of how things work and why and just has i guess a professional's touch, meaning he is familiar with procedures an amateur usually doesn't know about. This is almost always due to specialized training and/or experience. So you might want to have a distinction between natural abilities and professional abilities. You may also want to have more than one percentage to apply.One percentage for their actual ability in knowledge and identification and another for presentation, preformance or convincing others or other criteria..

Let's take the singing category for instance. In this case, Skill Level refers to if the singer was singing acapella.

Amateur Levels:

Good Amateur Singer: Skill Level: 55%/Presentation Level: 45% Has a good voice and can sing pretty well. May be third row of the choir. Cannot hit high notes but can carry a normal tune. Kind of like the family singer. Both percentages would be locked without professional training.

Gifted Amateur Singer: Skill Level 70%/Presentation Level 55% Locked without formal training. This is the local choir standout. Has a very good natural voice. Can hit the high notes or scream the right way if in a metal band. Can harmonize. May have some low degree of music training, perhaps singing lessons. May be able to make a few bucks on the weekend singing in a band. Both percentages would be locked without professional training.

Professional Levels:

Semi-professional Singer: Skill Level 55%/Presentation Level 45% 5% per level. A semi-pro can make an irregular living at singing. This is the kind who typically plays at weddings and Bar Mitzvahs. As their experience grows (based on level advancement) their ability to sing will improves as does their showmanship. As they improve they would most likely be able to play clubs on a regular basis, even if its just as a cover band. If they play long enough they may actually be able to make it big, most likely as a one hit wonder. I would cap their skills at around 75 to 80%.

Professional Singer: Skill Level 55%/Presentation Level 70% per level. Professional Singers at low levels are basically from garage bands that somehow made it early. Let's face it they got lucky. Their stuff is gimmicked, polished and/or packaged in a way that people buy it. If these singers last long enough they may actually get good. I would cap their skill ability at about 75-80% but presentation could reach 98%. Singer such as this would be familiar with studio procedures and professional techniques.

True Singers: Skill Level 70%/Presentation Level 60% A Professional Singer who not only has an exceptional voice but has a high degree of training in both voice and presentation. These are the Divas of the world. No caps on skill or presentation. Singer such as this would be familiar with studio procedures and professional techniques.


For Cryptography.

Amateur Level:

Good Amateur: Skill level 55% Locked. A good amateur likes to solve puzzles. He usually can but how long varies. When rolling to see if he breaks the code if he fails I would have him roll again if he rolls 3 failures in a row the puzzle cannot be solved by him. Otherwise he can pick at it for as long as he wants. If he succeeds 3 times in a row he solves it. Otherwise I would give him clues as he figures out a little bit at a time as long as he keeps working at it. For a simple puzzle like a crossword failure might mean 10 seconds goes by. Anything high level such as a military code would not be able to be deciphered by him. An amateur would not use pro equipment.

Genius Amateur: Skill Level 70% Locked. A Genius naturally cracks codes. Similar to Will Hunting or Travolta's character in Phenomenon they can break complex codes in a short period of time. They do it for the challenge of breaking it, They can even break military codes with very little equipment. They don't use pro equipment to solve codes.

Professional Level:
Freelancer: Skill 65% Capped at around 80%
This is a freelancer who is brought into crack codes. He is not as smart as a genius and is not given the same amount of training but he has a knack for cracking codes and is familiar with most of the latest computer equipment and professional techniques.

Professional: Skill Level 55% Capped at around 80% May be increased to 98 with pro equipment.
This is the typical govt employee who makes his living cracking codes. He is familiar with professional equipment and procedures.

Genius/Elite Professional: Skill Level 70% no caps.
This is the governmtent Employees who is not only a genius butis professionally trained and has made cracking codes his living. he is brought in when a code needs to be cracked.

So basically I have broken the categories into (1)Interested or Good Amateur, 55% Locked (2) Gifted Amateur 70% Locked (3) Semi-Professional 55% Lock at around 70-80% (4) Professional 55% same as semi pro but possibly unlocked and (5) Elite Professional 70% unlocked. I think those 5 categories could be appled to any skill you think of and give a greater texture and definition to what a character can accomplish. And the percentages are general. They can be changed based on what you want to do its just personally I want to see a degree of competence demonstrated by people who know an ability and a degree of not being able to solve everything no matter how experienced you are.

THe Elite category may be too elite and have to be merged with pro though. As far as Palladium translation I would do this.


Elite OCC Skills: Pick 3 Skills from the OCC Skills or OCC Related Categories that is the character's primary focus. These will become his Elite Professional Skills that would allow him to max higher than his other occ skills. I'd add a one time increase of +1 to WPs and HtH moves to these elite skills, physicals as well.

OCC Skills and OCC Related Skills: I'd Pick 5 of these to be skills one has at a pro level and the rest I would put in the Semi Pro Category. Players choice on which ones. Alternatively you could Have OCC Skills as Pro and OCC Related as Semi-pro. Or you could base it on percentage bonus. Skills giving the higher bonuses would fall into pro category while those with lower bonuses would fall into the semi-pro category.

Secondary Skills: All original Secondary skills I would put in the gifted amateur category.

Subsequent Skills: All skills acquired after initial creation would be in the good amateur category. I might allow some variation on OCC Skills and OCC Related Skills however depending on bonus I probably wouldn't make them higher than semi-pro. Secondaries acquired later would always be locked at good amateur percentages. In game training and special circumstance can be used to enhance any skill a player posesses, bumping it up a notch to the next category level. Any newly acquired skills through in game training would be acquired at the good amateur level and frozen. Save of course skills like physicals and sniper.

I would like to include some sort of rule about people with amateur skills being able to acquire a lot more than those with official training to reflect the increased interest but lack of special knowlege in any one area of those characters but not real sure to go about it. Maybe add 5 more skills to the vagabond character or an extra skill at every other level. course that might make the vagabond too powerful. The idea of a character not really specializing in anything and being a jack of trades master of none appeals to me. Maybe for every elite specialization they give up they get 4 amateur skills for every pro 3 and for every semi pro 2. All the skills would be locked at 55% (save the 4 original secondaries at gifted levels) of course but they would have a lot of them.

Also if you did this system this way you might have to ignore the bonus percentages and just go with the 55, 70 55 65 70 format.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:47 pm
  

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GA wrote:

Rifts skill percentages seem off. To me they are too low.



I'll say! The low % numbers accompanied by the fact that it's not really explained 'when' a skill check is needed... (they can't possibly be that low for general use, look at the 'driving skill).

In short, the Palladium skill system looks good.... until you actually run a game with a lot of skill use in it, then it breaks down very fast.

I say base the skill system off the PB combat system, which is much more play-able.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:26 pm
  

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DamonS wrote:
GA wrote:

Rifts skill percentages seem off. To me they are too low.



I'll say! The low % numbers accompanied by the fact that it's not really explained 'when' a skill check is needed... (they can't possibly be that low for general use, look at the 'driving skill).


Skill checks are required when something particularly tricky is attempted.
You don't make a Pilot: Auto check for starting a car, but you do make one for attempting a bootleg turn.
For day to day driving, you generally don't need to make checks.

Quote:
In short, the Palladium skill system looks good.... until you actually run a game with a lot of skill use in it, then it breaks down very fast.


The skill system is decent. Years ago, it was the one of the best out there.
But those years have passed and systems like D20 are superior.

Quote:
I say base the skill system off the PB combat system, which is much more play-able.


In short, to make the skill system like D20...?

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:59 pm
  

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There have been video games (see any of the Elder Scrolls series) that level up skills just as you've described. However, to avoid massive record keeping, I usually assign a certain ammnt of "skill points" that can be distributed per level and let the players decide...that way they take responsibility for what skills they feel they need/want. You can limit what they spend thier points on based on what you feel they've done during the level (gotten training, focused on picking locks vs picking pockets etc).

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:57 pm
  

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Why fight a simple system because honestly the character dosn't get enough basic skills as it is. swimming and pilot robots and power armor all cost one skill? so untill you are going to fix the whole picture why pick on the little things?

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:32 pm
  

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I think I like the RECON rules on skills better, where Experience points are used to purchase new skills and also spent to level up current skills.

This way the players can beef up the skills they find important/ use the most, while the unused skills don't get any advancement.

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:31 pm
  

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I am going to get chewed out for this but out of all the games I have played Buffy The Vampire Slayer the RPG had the best skill progression rules

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:37 pm
  

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care to give an example?

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:31 pm
  

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it was much like mage/vampires of the mas... in that your experiance were your skill points, but unlike mage you only rolled one dice and added your bonuses instead of rolling multiple dice. It is a wonderfuly simple system.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:57 pm
  

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CoC has a good system - if you use a skill successfully and in a non-routine fashion then you put a check next to it (only one check per skill). When you level roll a percentile for all the checked skills. Roll over your existing score and you can 1D10% to it, fail and nothing happens.

This way skill improvement slows as you get better at things, which is kind of realistic.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:59 am
  

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AHEM boy hav eyou stepped in it with me
1 3 levels of skill Basic (secondary), Expert (professional), Master (Advanced)
2 Skill Points: IQx50 Starting Points + IQ x lvl advancement points
3 Basic scholastic = 1 pt per 1%, Expert = 2 per 1, Master 4 per 1
4 Physical Skills/WPs = 10, 20, 40
5 Skills start at 0%
6 Pre Reqs like Basic Pilot Auto to Advanced Pilot Race Car
7 Skills max out at IQ or other base attribute x 10% so IQ 11=max at 110%
8 Bonus skills gained through PC Gen are given bonuses
9 Natural Talent = a given area like Pilot Auto or WP: Swords, etc and you gain a bonus there

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:25 am
  

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Zazshann wrote:
There have been video games (see any of the Elder Scrolls series) that level up skills just as you've described. However, to avoid massive record keeping, I usually assign a certain ammnt of "skill points" that can be distributed per level and let the players decide...that way they take responsibility for what skills they feel they need/want. You can limit what they spend thier points on based on what you feel they've done during the level (gotten training, focused on picking locks vs picking pockets etc).


Exactly how rolemaster does their skill development.

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