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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:55 pm
  

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would a black hole have any effect on an open rift


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:15 am
  

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wow there is a question for science if i ever say one. ok let me think here. black holes are so powerful they can suck in light and make time stop. but a rift can rip through time and space. i would say that if a black hole met a rift the two forces being complete opposites, but alike would nontheless cause a huge and i mean HUGE explosion( around 10 with 38 zeros behind it). first sucking everything in a 10 light year radius around the two colliding forces, then they would slowly over a few days start to break down and collapse and everything in 100,000 light years would die by the proceeding implosion. leaving nothing not even hydrogen atoms.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:17 am
  

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ofcourse that is just a theory, but a good theory


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:04 am
  

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Hrmm.. good question.

I think the response of an explosion is probably likely. WIth the blast depending on the size of the rift and the black hole. A tiny rift opening in a large black hole likely woudnt even be noticed.

But at some point one would disrupt the other horribly I'd say. Then it depends on where along the black hoel the rift appears. I mean right at the entrance? Not much.

At the 'end'? Again probably not much.

Right in the middle though? Where the pull and crush is greatest. Where the true power of the blackhole is held? Yeah probably a Kaboom. A very very big Kaboom assuming the Rift was big enough to 'disrupt' the core. Or maybe it gets turned into a theoretical 'white hole' where things are suddenly being spewed out.

Eitherway I see nothing good comming from this.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:46 am
  

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Please remember that a black hole is not a "hole" in space per se, but is rather a super dense collapsed star. It has 3 dimensions (like a ball) and physical mass (science believes).

Think about this: What if the super strong gravitational pull of a black hole warps ley lines, just like it can absorbe even light (light having properties of both a particle and a wave)?

Perhaps instead of disrupting the rift, the black hole could create a super rift by pulling ley lines together into a nexus :)

Just WILD speculation here hehe

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:05 am
  

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Sorry folks magic (ppe) is generated by life etc, so when a star dies the ley lines in that solar system reallign into a new configuration. No rifts can open in a black hole as there are no ley lines.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:21 am
  

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Then how is magic done in Dimensions where there is nothing or how would you escape from said Dimensions. Also how would UWW ships be able to use them as wormholes if magic was not able to be used?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:43 am
  

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Greyaxe wrote:
Sorry folks magic (ppe) is generated by life etc, so when a star dies the ley lines in that solar system reallign into a new configuration. No rifts can open in a black hole as there are no ley lines.


I am sure I read in one of the books, Phase World maybe, that rifts are kind of like a magic pressure relief valve. The naturally occurring ones open from places with a high concentration of magic/ppe to a place of low ppe. This is one of the reasons that rifts Earth and Center both have allot of rift activity.

So with that then rifts are likely to open to a black hole as it may be all but devoid of ppe.

If that would happen I belive that no explosion would result but rather what ever is on the other side of the rift would be pulled into the black hole. Destroying everything until there was no longer enough life and ppe to sustain the rift. This might take awhile and cause even nearby solar systems to be pulled in depending on how much death ppe is released when the black hole consumes its victims.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:20 pm
  

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I do not remember what book it is in, but when you rift into a magic dead planet, you only have your own personal PPE resources available too you. I thinks its under the shifter or megaverse builder i do not remember.

System drives that open worm holes/rifts use their own power to do so (at least in my games). The real question is when time is stoped are you still able to use them before your life ends.

Can you open a rift inside a black hole? depends on how many beers your GM has had and if he likes your character enough to let you hahah

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:46 pm
  

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Black Holes bend the fabric of space-time, they don't destroy it. The stuff simply gets warped so out of shape that it's basically crumpled up on itself. Light doesn't escape because its path gets bent in to an inward spiral, rather than just being slingshotted like it does around other high-density items.

A Rift is a tear in the fabric of space-time. Just as you can still tear a piece of cloth that is crumpled up or bent, you can make a Rift anywhere you like. If, however, you were to tear a Rift in a portion of the space-time fabric that has been wrapped up inside a Black Hole, it would be pretty thorougly irrelevant. The fabric would, in all likelihood, be wrapped and packed so tight in other layers of space-time, that even the most massive Rifts ever made would be smaller than the eye could see, and completely inaccessible.

All that is even more irrelevant, due to the fact that any physical thing travelling through the Rift would be completely and utterly annihilated before it knew it had gone anywhere, and any energy travelling through would be trapped forever.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:19 pm
  

In a word - ow!

I agree with J Lionheart, except in one spot. A physical object would likely not be annihilated, it'd be spaghettified and/or eventually become crunched and one with the singularity.

Edit: You may even survive, if the rift picks a big enough black hole.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:33 pm
  

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MrMom wrote:
Then how is magic done in Dimensions where there is nothing or how would you escape from said Dimensions. Also how would UWW ships be able to use them as wormholes if magic was not able to be used?


That is a failing of rift drives, they cant go through wormholes. And perhaps magic can not be done in dimensions where there is nothing, maybe that is why they are used as dimensional prisons.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:37 pm
  

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oh well my bad


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:34 pm
  

Gudinoff wrote:
If that would happen I belive that no explosion would result but rather what ever is on the other side of the rift would be pulled into the black hole. Destroying everything until there was no longer enough life and ppe to sustain the rift. This might take awhile and cause even nearby solar systems to be pulled in depending on how much death ppe is released when the black hole consumes its victims.


The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.

Then again, you could do the Stargate thing, and allow that the gravity of a black hole is strong enough to overcome the normal "no environmental conditions travelling through" precedent. :P


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:41 am
  

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Black Holes aren't singularities/three dimensional objects per se.

A Black Hole as we perceive it is nothing more than the 2 dimensional boundary between our universe and another one.

Could you open a rift up inside of a black hole? Yeah, but you wouldn't realise you were inside a black hole, just in another one of what palladium labels (inaccurately) dimensions.

If you opened a rift up to the interior of a black hole, you would find yourself entering another universe, with it's own set of laws/physics (space/time is weird like that) but one could just assume (to make things simpler) that black holes produced in one universe tend to contain similar universes to their parents.

So you wouldn't often rift into a universe where 4-dimensional matter is forced into a higher/lower dimensional state, or other weirder possibilities, like baryons becoming unstable, photons having greater mass, or their being extra divisions of the superforce present, with their own unique and scarcely imaginable interactions.

No, it would not cause an explosion, anything that happens inside of a black hole is no longer connected to this universe causally.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:15 pm
  

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Natalya wrote:
Gudinoff wrote:
If that would happen I belive that no explosion would result but rather what ever is on the other side of the rift would be pulled into the black hole. Destroying everything until there was no longer enough life and ppe to sustain the rift. This might take awhile and cause even nearby solar systems to be pulled in depending on how much death ppe is released when the black hole consumes its victims.


The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.

Then again, you could do the Stargate thing, and allow that the gravity of a black hole is strong enough to overcome the normal "no environmental conditions travelling through" precedent. :P
I agree with Natalya the gravity of the black hole would not travel through the rift(Its Magic). It would require a sentient willingness to step through the rift. It is how ever possible for the rift be colapsed on the other side keeping someone from entering, but if they could step through only death would be on the other side.

This could also be an expensive way to kill all your enemies :demon:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:20 pm
  

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A 4th dimensional cube looks like the shadow of a 5th dimensional cube :p

The gravity wouldn't go through though, I agree about that, the physics of the native realm would hold sway, a more interesting dilemma would be regarding the edges of the rift itself, and what sort of forces might be contained within them.

The boundary between the two universes would just be odd to look at.

Shame palladium uses dimension as it does.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:22 pm
  

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There is no baundry between dimensions, rifts are 2 dimension not three dimensional.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:45 pm
  

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*fumes at the use of dimensions referring to alternate universes, AND spatial dimensions back to back*

The portion of the rift you pass through wouldnt necessarily be an extant object, just something like a window from one universe to another.

The edges of something capable of opening a window (the frame if you will) interest me though, just going by real physics there is a mechanism capable of this, a Kerr Metric.

In a Kerr Metric, formed by a black hole spinning sufficiently rapidly that it has a ring shaped singularity, one could "miss" the event horizon, and pass through it (the equations describe an ingoing and outgoing side) into another part of our Universe, or another Universe entirely. Which sounds pretty much like a Rift to me.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:22 pm
  

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I would say that the black hole Rift randomly Changes Dimensions due to a dimensional anomaly. The gravity field might also hold the rift open (percentile?) and soon you would have an anomaly like a giant picture window in space that constantly changed the Image. then you would have a new O.C.C. that specialized in the Blackhole Rifting and using their ability to manoeuver through time and dimensions by utilising these "unique" hapinstances of magic.

Also nothing could come through the Dimensional breech into space due to the gravitational push on the other side.

Ehhh? Just a dumb gamers Idea.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:41 pm
  

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I'd have to agree that the gravitational effects of a black hole, extreme as they are, would nevertheless not propagate through the magical boundary that is a rift, just as other alien environments don't mix through them.

Unless the black hole was one of the truly immense galactic black holes, stepping through the rift would be instantly fatal, however, as tidal forces would rip any matter crossing through into its component particles and crush it down to spaghetti-strands.

The view through the rift would be odd, to say the least. Depending on the direction the view was 'facing', things would be redshifted beyond visibility, or blueshifted well out of the normal visible spectrum. It's entirely possible that the view would be nonsensical to us, considering that the 'time' and 'space' directions get somewhat exchanged beyond the event horizon: the singularity doesn't exist in front of an infalling object, at the center of a black hole, but rather in its unavoidable future. Trying to avoid the singularity of a black hole is like trying to avoid tomorrow.

Escaping from within a black hole via a rift, I think, would be tantamount to time-travel. With the space-time directions reversed, you'd literally have to travel backwards in time in order to escape. I'm not exactly sure how you'd be able to engineer actually falling into the rift itself once you were past the event horizon, but hey, it's magic. :lol:

So hey... what happens if you shove a vampire through a rift into a black hole? Does it get torn to atoms and spaghettified and compressed to near-infinity like everything else made of matter? It's not sun or water damage specifically, so are vampires instead inherently immune to compaction by space-bending gravitational forces, and simply trapped inside the black hole for the 10^100 years it takes for them to evaporate through Hawking radiation? :? :D

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:02 pm
  

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Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:34 pm
  

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<.<

It is a common misconception that the inside of a black hole is an incredibly destructive place.

There is no "inside" to a black hole relative to our Universe.

The entirety of the black hole is the event horizon, you don't pass through it and fall inside, you smush into it and become a part of the hole itself.

The inside of one, by most theoretical reckoning would be another Universe entirely, so a rift to the inside of a black hole would just appear like any other rift that didn't lead to another part of the same universe.

A rift that opened near the event horizon itself, that's another matter entirely.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:16 am
  

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Max™ wrote:
<.<

It is a common misconception that the inside of a black hole is an incredibly destructive place.

It depends on the size of the black hole, really. Tidal effects from small black holes are incredibly destructive due to the steep gravitational gradient. Larger black holes (such as those found at the centers of galaxies) have a much 'gentler' gradient.

Quote:
There is no "inside" to a black hole relative to our Universe.

The entirety of the black hole is the event horizon, you don't pass through it and fall inside, you smush into it and become a part of the hole itself.

The event horizon of a black hole is not a physical surface, but is simply the region defined by the distance from the singularity at which the escape velocity equals the speed of light. So, once you've passed this boundary, there's no escape, since in order to do so you would need to somehow exceed the speed of light (which in the real universe, at least, appears to be impossible). Eventually you wind up colliding with the singularity and getting crushed incomprehensibly small.

You may be instead thinking of a MECO, or Massive Eternally Collapsing Object, which is a competing theory to the prediction of black holes. These objects would indeed have a physical surface.

Quote:
The inside of one, by most theoretical reckoning would be another Universe entirely, so a rift to the inside of a black hole would just appear like any other rift that didn't lead to another part of the same universe.

A rift that opened near the event horizon itself, that's another matter entirely.

The interior of a black hole could probably be considered another universe, but it would be a very weird universe, and not one anyone would really care to visit, I bet. :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:56 am
  

Nethel wrote:
Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.


Hopefully no one minds if I jump in with my thoughts here. One thing to look at is some rifts would cause Earth to lose parts of its environment if environmental conditions leaked through. Rifts commonly open in the bottom of the ocean, but the water level isn't going down and people on the other side step through not expecting to be immersed and crunched. There's mention of a rift between Earth and Mars, but Earth isn't losing atmosphere.

The ley line storms that crop up when a rift opens are not storms coming through the rift. It's a domestic storm being caused by the exact same thing causing the rift - an overload of PPE at the site.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:17 pm
  

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Natalya wrote:
Nethel wrote:
Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.


Hopefully no one minds if I jump in with my thoughts here. One thing to look at is some rifts would cause Earth to lose parts of its environment if environmental conditions leaked through. Rifts commonly open in the bottom of the ocean, but the water level isn't going down and people on the other side step through not expecting to be immersed and crunched. There's mention of a rift between Earth and Mars, but Earth isn't losing atmosphere.

The ley line storms that crop up when a rift opens are not storms coming through the rift. It's a domestic storm being caused by the exact same thing causing the rift - an overload of PPE at the site.
Thankyou Natalya.

If I could add to your statement, other hazards such as radiation, gamarays, mircowaves, ect. would not pass through. Not even harmless things like radio waves. But that does leave the question of where all those mutations from "Alien Radiation" come from, so I would have to say (and this is just logical elimination of possibilitys) that any of that radiation came through the rift with someone or something else.

Nethel you you could provide me with any page numbers or quotes of where I can find your info that would be great. I'm also gonna do my own read through the base books as well

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:15 pm
  

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Qev wrote:
Max™ wrote:
<.<

It is a common misconception that the inside of a black hole is an incredibly destructive place.

It depends on the size of the black hole, really. Tidal effects from small black holes are incredibly destructive due to the steep gravitational gradient. Larger black holes (such as those found at the centers of galaxies) have a much 'gentler' gradient.

Quote:
There is no "inside" to a black hole relative to our Universe.

The entirety of the black hole is the event horizon, you don't pass through it and fall inside, you smush into it and become a part of the hole itself.

The event horizon of a black hole is not a physical surface, but is simply the region defined by the distance from the singularity at which the escape velocity equals the speed of light. So, once you've passed this boundary, there's no escape, since in order to do so you would need to somehow exceed the speed of light (which in the real universe, at least, appears to be impossible). Eventually you wind up colliding with the singularity and getting crushed incomprehensibly small.

You may be instead thinking of a MECO, or Massive Eternally Collapsing Object, which is a competing theory to the prediction of black holes. These objects would indeed have a physical surface.

Quote:
The inside of one, by most theoretical reckoning would be another Universe entirely, so a rift to the inside of a black hole would just appear like any other rift that didn't lead to another part of the same universe.

A rift that opened near the event horizon itself, that's another matter entirely.

The interior of a black hole could probably be considered another universe, but it would be a very weird universe, and not one anyone would really care to visit, I bet. :lol:


No, I'm thinking of a black hole as a "censor" between our Universe, and the event occuring "inside" the event horizon.

Where the horizon starts though, is where our Universe ends.

Just to add something to think about, one would expect that as a black hole gained mass, it would increase in volume appropriately, but strangely enough, adding mass to a black hole only increases the surface area it seems.

Kind of like blowing up a balloon from the outside, except the interior is a non-issue unless you spin it at high velocities, and the air you're blowing gets converted into more balloon material.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:48 pm
  

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Greyaxe wrote:
Sorry folks magic (ppe) is generated by life etc, so when a star dies the ley lines in that solar system reallign into a new configuration. No rifts can open in a black hole as there are no ley lines.


Aw, no fun! No fun at all!

Well, I would think there could be some fun idea in ley-nexus + black hole. My first instinct is that the black hole would work through a rift, essentially making for black hole on both sides. Perhaps *every* black hole has a rift in it (perhaps the only rifts available in otherwise rift-free universes). And since Magic can do things like break laws of physics, one could imagine space shifters or temporal raiders playing with this. Placing something inside the event Horizon, where only arcane means can get it.

Then again, sci-fi necromancers.... they'd need a black hole to rally around. I know of one race like this, but I'll not name is for fear of copyright. But needless to say, mix the physical 'black hole' with the metaphors for blackness being involved with evil and death, and you can have yourself one nasty supernatural menace plaguing the UWW.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:41 pm
  

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Max™ wrote:
No, I'm thinking of a black hole as a "censor" between our Universe, and the event occuring "inside" the event horizon.

Where the horizon starts though, is where our Universe ends.

Well, that's certainly a valid way to look at it, since whatever's beyond the event horizon is pretty much gone from our universe... at least until the thing evaporates. :)

Quote:
Just to add something to think about, one would expect that as a black hole gained mass, it would increase in volume appropriately, but strangely enough, adding mass to a black hole only increases the surface area it seems.

Kind of like blowing up a balloon from the outside, except the interior is a non-issue unless you spin it at high velocities, and the air you're blowing gets converted into more balloon material.

Well... the volume of the black hole does increase, in terms of that region of our spacetime that's been 'excluded' by the event horizon surface, ie. as they gain mass, the radius of the horizon as we measure it increases. I have no idea how this would be interpreted from inside the black hole, though. :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:57 pm
  

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Location: F*ck off.
I didn't explain well enough.

It now seems that when you add mass to a black hole, instead of it's volume increasing appropriately, only it's surface area seems to be affected.

So I get the image of matter being smushed into it and making it larger, instead of piling up inside of it. Nevermind things such as 5-d Anti-De Sitter descriptions suggesting that a black hole's counterpart is a cloud of hot gas, much like a universe fresh after a big bang.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:31 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:12 am
Posts: 4435
Location: Pits of Dyval
i know when i have time latter on. ill make a D% roll up to use in case stuff like this happens, using what i and others have said so far. i mean seriously what makes people think that there would be only one result from a rift in a black hole. there would probible be a gillion possibilities.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:54 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:15 pm
Posts: 15
<quoted>
The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.
<quoted>

Actually the Rifts main book states about rifts, that something always comes out or goes in an open rift even if its just air. So rifts do allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. If one were to open a rift to the bottom of an ocean the the water would come out at great force and in massive quantity until the rift was closed or the water level/pressure equalized. Likewise if one were to open a rift into deep space the rush of air into that space would blow things from the higher pressure side.


EDIT:added quoted indication


Last edited by Gudinoff on Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:59 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:15 pm
Posts: 15
Natalya wrote:
Nethel wrote:
Scrud why wouldn't the gravity effect the destination of the rift? Part of the cataclysm and storms on the sea are rifted in from other worlds. natural disasters in effect in other dimensions were able to come through the rift.


Hopefully no one minds if I jump in with my thoughts here. One thing to look at is some rifts would cause Earth to lose parts of its environment if environmental conditions leaked through. Rifts commonly open in the bottom of the ocean, but the water level isn't going down and people on the other side step through not expecting to be immersed and crunched. There's mention of a rift between Earth and Mars, but Earth isn't losing atmosphere.
<the above is quoted>

The ley line storms that crop up when a rift opens are not storms coming through the rift. It's a domestic storm being caused by the exact same thing causing the rift - an overload of PPE at the site.




You are overlooking the likelihood that for most water or atmosphere lost that some is gained from somewhere else.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:39 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:57 pm
Posts: 987
Location: Toronto, ON
Gudinoff wrote:
<quoted>
The rifts that happen underwater don't automatically pour water through. Rifts in space don't suck the air out of the other side. I'd be inclined to think that the black hole wouldn't affect anything on the other side, based on the fact that no other environmental effect automatically falls through.
<quoted>

Actually the Rifts main book states about rifts, that something always comes out or goes in an open rift even if its just air. So rifts do allow atmospheric conditions to pass through. If one were to open a rift to the bottom of an ocean the the water would come out at great force and in massive quantity until the rift was closed or the water level/pressure equalized. Likewise if one were to open a rift into deep space the rush of air into that space would blow things from the higher pressure side.

That would be a problem, as the first rift to open on the surface of Rifts Earth that lead into the vacuum of space somewhere would very quickly exterminate all air-breathing life on the planet. :shock:

Well, okay, after a bit of math, 'quicky' comes out to be around one hundred thousand years for all the air to get blown off the planet (in a very simplified model anyway). Still, a hole in space sucking in air at over 1400 tonnes per second would make for one heck of a local meteorological phenomenon. :)

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