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 Post subject: PB question
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:02 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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For humans, what is "average"?

I saw an NPC in FOM with a PB of 14 and she was smoking hot. Nearly "stunning". This makes sense if average is 9 (out of 3D6), but it seems that most NPCs, and PCs, running around have well over that, usually in the mid to upper teens. Plus there is all that mess with extra D6's over certain amounts, and so on.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:37 pm
  

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16 is the threshhold. 16 is so above average as to be exceptional. 17+ is exceptional to awesome. The 10-12 area is average. 13-15 is above average but not exceptionally so. 9-7 below average. 6 and below is poor to crippled.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:55 pm
  

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Hmm... Interesting.

I know people will say that art is not canon, but it's also vital. It defines who people are (what they look like), what equipment looks like, etc. And that chick (forget her name, brunette, high powered in realm of politics, scrupulous alignment) has a PB of 14, but is clearly more than model material (and pageant winning material - other than the odd right hand that seemed to be an art mistake).

Also, with 3D6, you're likely to get a 9 as an average. That would mean that most people would be 8 to 10.

I'm not arguing, just kinda thinking out loud.

Is that stuff you mentioned in a book somewhere?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:04 pm
  

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Champion

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Greetings and salutations. If you have the Palladium Fantasy (PF) Second Edition main book, I suggest looking at page 16. It actually gives numbers with references. If you have the book, the first to bold faced sections are called "What's a low attribute?" and then "What's an average attribute?" It gives examples which you might like (at least by Palladium terms. I'm figuring someone will come in here a bit later and post the actual statistics to what is the most commonly rolled). I don't know if it's printed in any other book, and I don't know if it's allowed for me to post that information here since it's from a book (though I don't think it's anything major). By the way, 14 shouldn't be a model (attractive, yes, but not a model). This is just a case of a picture not matching the stats (sorry to burst your bubble).


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:13 pm
  

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You know Prysus, I knew I read it somewhere. I think its listed in most books. I was too lazy to look it up, haha, so I went off of memory.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:36 pm
  

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actually the only possible answer is 9, humans roll 3d6, 9 is average

BE


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:43 pm
  

Blue Eyes wrote:
actually the only possible answer is 9, humans roll 3d6, 9 is average

BE
Actually, it's 10.66, not 9.


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:28 pm
  

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Champion

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Bloodspray wrote:
For humans, what is "average"?


Depends on what the GM has the PC's roll for atts.

The "average" will go up if he/she has the PC's roll 4d6 and re-roll ones, or 3d8's or 3d6 and re-roll ones.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:04 pm
  

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Prysus wrote:
Greetings and salutations. If you have the Palladium Fantasy (PF) Second Edition main book, I suggest looking at page 16. It actually gives numbers with references. If you have the book, the first to bold faced sections are called "What's a low attribute?" and then "What's an average attribute?" It gives examples which you might like (at least by Palladium terms. I'm figuring someone will come in here a bit later and post the actual statistics to what is the most commonly rolled). I don't know if it's printed in any other book, and I don't know if it's allowed for me to post that information here since it's from a book (though I don't think it's anything major). By the way, 14 shouldn't be a model (attractive, yes, but not a model). This is just a case of a picture not matching the stats (sorry to burst your bubble).


The bit about art being off is a cop out. They get the editors stamp of approval as being what they are labeled as in the books.

And please don't be condescending (the "burst your bubble" crap), there is no need for it.

Actually, you might be right about 14 not being model material. It's probably too high.

Most models are scrawny. Most super hot women couldn't be models because designers and advertisers want bags of bones, not seductive curves.

That was my fault for using that term.

I did ask what the books call average, and I guess you answered that. And it also told me that the books are off. 10 and 11 are average (put the matrix together in excel and you can see it clearly - I just did it). If you widen it, you *could* call it 9 - 12. But in truth, 12 is a little above and 9 is a little below.

That would make 14 well above. With the right outfit, easily magazine cover material, or even centerfold material. (maybe not the BEST centerfold, but more than "good enough" to qualify)

So it ended up being a double question and I didn't realize it. lol But they both got answered. :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:48 pm
  

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Hero

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i hate to bring a touch of game to this conversation ... but i do believe that the current average PB is in the 20-24 range

it seems that the PC's i've seen [and yes i have some that have PB's rolled up by GM's at times that ended up in the 20's or higher - due to elf race char] EVERY female char just has to be super ungodly gorgeous ...

its gotten to the point that i've chosen to take points OFF my char's PB stat to stick on something more fitting to the class. so now .. about half the chars now, have PB's in the 10-14 range .. and yeah .. its nicer ... lots easier to 'blend in the background' and do ... the unpleasant work you just gotta do ... while the bombshells giggle and pose for hte public ...

public dont like the average schmoe looking hero ... they all flock to the 'barbie doll type' .. which is fine by me .... more loot to gather while THEY"RE busy ...

so ... PB is actually rather useless as a stat .. cause NO ONE suffers from having a high one ... like they should

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:49 pm
  

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shiiv-a wrote:
so ... PB is actually rather useless as a stat .. cause NO ONE suffers from having a high one ... like they should


Yeah... the curse I live with IRL... *sighs and swats away the fan club*


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:56 pm
  

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Hero

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... NOT what i meant ... and you know it .. ya gooseberry

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Nano Missiles - used once and GM banned further use. They weren't THAT bad. and did stop a demon scout ship from returning with valuable info.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:21 am
  

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Knight

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LOL..actualy..hero's are supposed to be beautiful (Unless you're Large Marv from Sin-City).
And I actulay do have negatives to extra high PB's... one term that strikes horror in all hero's in any dimension;
The Fan-Boy / Girl :D

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:22 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Heh, yeah, sign me up for that suffering...... lol :lol:

That's the 3rd side to it I guess, "average" of the PCs and NPCs that are actually 'out there'. And I'm sure that's well high of the probabilities.

I don't know about it being a useless stat though. I used to think it was, but now I'm having a different opinion. Of course, I'm also moving away from pure war gaming too so..... lol


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:12 am
  

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Blue Eyes wrote:
actually the only possible answer is 9, humans roll 3d6, 9 is average

BE
Actually, it's 10.66, not 9.


10.66? I thought it was 10.5 (3.5 * 3), leaving 10-11 to be average for all human stats.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:54 am
  

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Hero

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Comment: I see people as people first, anything else is secondary
oooo ...... :oops:

you were talking Dyce averages? ....oh my. i was thinking like how people have their character PB's.
most female characters have HIGH PB's ... have NO braincells .. and react with their hormones.
at least from what i've seen. such as, luring a godling on with hints and comments that lead to the classic *fade to black* scenes. then doing the sudden turn about and the perverbial bucket of cold water down the trunks .. just to get a magic item from the godling.

sadly .. THIS is the way the games go on the chats. especially when the person in question is of the belief that ANYTHING is possible if you can come up with a good reason for it.
this is the same person, who's characters seem to be on first name basis with EVERY deity in the many pantheons. must be because they are about 3 generations away from the god/mortal infatuation. it got boring real fast. i'm sure SOME of you know the kind of player i'm refering to? .. if not? .. watch a few online games while pretending to be a newbie .. and you might learn something.

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Nano Missiles - used once and GM banned further use. They weren't THAT bad. and did stop a demon scout ship from returning with valuable info.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:18 pm
  

D-Bee

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I wish I could say that I always used the average, but I'm guilty of barbie-ing up my characters too. Guess it's that natural impulse of wanting the best stats we think we can get away with. True though that some of these girls should be getting a lot more attention then they do. And some of the other characters that try and act pretty should get the reaction of "OHMYGODWHATISITKILLIT!!" But you know....my own personal.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:26 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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It's interesting to hear about playes pumping up the PB stat. Surprising really. I would have expected PP, PS, and IQ to be the ones that get the pumpage. IQ and PP have always been the ones I put the most into. But like I said, that was back when it was more about power gaming (which is still fun, make no mistake lol).


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:35 pm
  

Natalya wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Blue Eyes wrote:
actually the only possible answer is 9, humans roll 3d6, 9 is average

BE
Actually, it's 10.66, not 9.


10.66? I thought it was 10.5 (3.5 * 3), leaving 10-11 to be average for all human stats.
10.5 is the average for 3D6, Palladium has 3D6, plus 1D6 if the result is 16, 17, or 18, which ups it, the average for games where a 6 is rolled on the additional D6 moves the average up to 10.69 or so.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:35 pm
  

Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Natalya wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Blue Eyes wrote:
actually the only possible answer is 9, humans roll 3d6, 9 is average

BE
Actually, it's 10.66, not 9.


10.66? I thought it was 10.5 (3.5 * 3), leaving 10-11 to be average for all human stats.
10.5 is the average for 3D6, Palladium has 3D6, plus 1D6 if the result is 16, 17, or 18, which ups it, the average for games where a 6 is rolled on the additional D6 moves the average up to 10.69 or so.


Oh, okay, kinda makes sense.

Guess I should have paid more attention in algebra.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:17 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Another thought - shouldn't the stats be linked?

For example, let's say you have a female character with a monstrous PS, but no super powers to provide it (like She-Hulk has). That should reduce the PB. And even put caps on it in addition to just reducing it.

Like if they throw a high PS to begin with, then take Running, Swimming, Boxing, Wrestling, and in particular, Body Building.... they would be too over developed and masculine and not attractive. Even just a runner's body is too stringy. The hottest girls (hour-glass) are not athletes.

Likewise, conversely, shouldn't taking those physical skills provide PB bonuses for men? (since they would be getting more cut, built, and defined)

Probably hard to link it to the PS stat, but perhaps putting PB modification on the skills just like they change other stats....


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:00 pm
  

Natalya wrote:
Oh, okay, kinda makes sense.

Guess I should have paid more attention in algebra.


Naw, I was lazy and had Erick Wujcik run the numbers for the extra die.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:54 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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well could you explain the math to me then, i am quite convinced it is 9

BE


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:00 pm
  

Blue Eyes wrote:
well could you explain the math to me then, i am quite convinced it is 9

BE


Erick Wujcik wrote:
Kuseru wrote:
Right. To reiterate; I'm not asking about the average range. This discussion assumes you already know what the mean average attribute would be. The book average has been (to date) based on solely the roll of 3D6 for attributes. Even if this doesn't apply to the non-PC and NPC types, their attribute determination would still factor into raising the mean average for that race. (In other words, I'm not interested in what the books say...I want hard, calculated numbers.)


10.662037037037

That should be the exact, hard, calculated average attribute, based on rolling 3D6, and adding 1D6 to any 16, 17 or 18 roll.

A couple of tables:

Chances of each result on a Regular 3D6 Roll
1 out of 216 to get a 3
3 out of 216 to get a 4
6 out of 216 to get a 5
10 out of 216 to get a 6
15 out of 216 to get a 7
21 out of 216 to get a 8
25 out of 216 to get a 9
27 out of 216 to get a 10
27 out of 216 to get a 11
25 out of 216 to get a 12
21 out of 216 to get a 13
15 out of 216 to get a 14
10 out of 216 to get a 15
6 out of 216 to get a 16
3 out of 216 to get a 17
1 out of 216 to get a 18

Total up all the numbers (1 times 3, plus 3 times 4, plus 6 times 5, plus 10 times 6... plus 3 times 17, plus 1 times 18), and then divide by 216 to get the average result (10.5).

[B[Chances of each result on a 3D6, where a 1D6 is added if the first roll is 16 or greater[/B]
1 out of 216 to get a 3
3 out of 216 to get a 4
6 out of 216 to get a 5
10 out of 216 to get a 6
15 out of 216 to get a 7
21 out of 216 to get a 8
25 out of 216 to get a 9
27 out of 216 to get a 10
27 out of 216 to get a 11
25 out of 216 to get a 12
21 out of 216 to get a 13
15 out of 216 to get a 14
10 out of 216 to get a 15
0 out of 216 to get a 16 (*)
6/6 out of 216 to get a 17
9/6 out of 216 to get a 18
10/6 out of 216 to get a 19
10/6 out of 216 to get a 20
10/6 out of 216 to get a 21
10/6 out of 216 to get a 22
4/6 out of 216 to get a 23
1/6 out of 216 to get a 24

Warning! If you try doing the usual (adding 1 times 3, plus 3 times 4... plus 4/6 times 23, plus 1/6 times 24), make sure that your calculator isn't introducing rounding errors. I kept getting bizarre, non-intuitive results, before I did some pencil work to figure the total chances of results 17 through 24 should be 200 exactly, not some odd fraction.

Anyway, thanks for the math exercise! I haven't worked on this problem since the first Mechanoid system was designed...

Erick

* That's right, there's a zero chance of rolling a 16, since you have to add at least one to any 16 you roll.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:01 pm
  

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I had always thought of it as this: 3 is the lowest possible number you can have and 18 is the highest (minus the additional hit die for exceptional attributes.) 3+18=21 21/2= 10.5 .... or 11 if you round up.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:24 pm
  

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Champion

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Bloodspray wrote:
Prysus wrote:
Greetings and salutations. If you have the Palladium Fantasy (PF) Second Edition main book, I suggest looking at page 16. It actually gives numbers with references. If you have the book, the first to bold faced sections are called "What's a low attribute?" and then "What's an average attribute?" It gives examples which you might like (at least by Palladium terms. I'm figuring someone will come in here a bit later and post the actual statistics to what is the most commonly rolled). I don't know if it's printed in any other book, and I don't know if it's allowed for me to post that information here since it's from a book (though I don't think it's anything major). By the way, 14 shouldn't be a model (attractive, yes, but not a model). This is just a case of a picture not matching the stats (sorry to burst your bubble).


The bit about art being off is a cop out. They get the editors stamp of approval as being what they are labeled as in the books.

And please don't be condescending (the "burst your bubble" crap), there is no need for it.

Actually, you might be right about 14 not being model material. It's probably too high.

Most models are scrawny. Most super hot women couldn't be models because designers and advertisers want bags of bones, not seductive curves.

That was my fault for using that term.

I did ask what the books call average, and I guess you answered that. And it also told me that the books are off. 10 and 11 are average (put the matrix together in excel and you can see it clearly - I just did it). If you widen it, you *could* call it 9 - 12. But in truth, 12 is a little above and 9 is a little below.

That would make 14 well above. With the right outfit, easily magazine cover material, or even centerfold material. (maybe not the BEST centerfold, but more than "good enough" to qualify)

So it ended up being a double question and I didn't realize it. lol But they both got answered. :)

*Sigh.* Well, Greetings and Salutations again. First, I'd like to comment that despite however it was worded, I didn't mean to come off condescending, though it appears I come off that way most of the time anyways. I would have responded sooner, but I check the forums only infrequently. Okay, and now to address each of the comments you replied to me one at a time.

You want to call saying art being off is a cop out, that is your right. But there are several instances of art being off. I mean, there are pictures of a werewolf in a half-wolf, half-man form in the same book that says they only have human and the animal form (no in between) which I actually got into a conversation about prior. Artists, in my experience, are going to draw the individual as some hot character on a general rule. If that same character had a PB of 8, would that mean that 8 is now beyond super model status? Yes, they have editors, but the books also have a lot of mistakes, missing information, contradicting comments, etc. Saying an editor stamped it and approved it doesn't mean it's perfect. The picture was drawn, not necessarily for that character. Sure, someone put the two together, but that doesn't mean they took everything into consideration or even cared (I find in real life most don't, but maybe I've just had bad experiences).

Next, to the condescending comment, well, it was just the way the comment came off. I didn't intend it to be condescending. For that much I can at least apologize for. That's not what I intended.

As for 14 being higher than a model, well, I can't really understand why you're so determined to try and prove the point, but I really don't personally care that much. So I have a question: If a 14 is higher than a model, then is a 7 even lower than a grotesquely disfigured individual? 12 or 13, by your figures, means models because they're just slightly higher than average. In reverse, 9 and 8 would be very ugly already. *Shrugs.* Just something to consider.

Of course, what one calls a model, what one calls super hot, what one calls ugly are all really subjective. What is attractive to one person isn't necessarily attractive to the next. Ultimately a PB can be described as just about anything. I know, I know, I'm sure someone out there is thinking it's a "cop out" statement. *Shrugs.* It doesn't change the validity of the statement.

Okay, well, I'm at least I did help find you a book reference. I will add that I find it interesting that you will call the text off rather than the picture, but to each his or her own. And yes, that may have come off as condescending, but wasn't really meant it. I find it interesting, not my personal choice, but I'm not here to force my beliefs on you either. Whatever works best for you is your call.

Personally, I don't consider 14 well above 11, especially when you take into consideration it can go up to 30 (or higher with possible bonuses).

Okay, I suppose that's all I really had to respond to. I probably wouldn't have replied at all, but since you said I was just taking a cop out in the first paragraph, I felt I had to respond to that as I don't believe it is. It may not be an answer you like, but sometimes it is just the case. You don't have to agree, that is fine. And the fact you didn't want an "art can be wrong" answer is kind of where the "burst your bubble" line came from. It wasn't meant to be condescending, so I did want to at least apologize for that as well if it came off that way (apologizing for it coming off wrong, not for seeing it differently than you). You don't have to agree with me, that is fine. Anyways, farewell and safe journeys to all.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:41 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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You care about this a lot more than you're trying to let on. If you were really as un-concerned as you try so hard to sound, you wouldn't even bother, much less with such a long reply.

No matter how you spin it - if the artist was charged with a project for a portrait of a character, then the powers that be took it and approved it - specifically for that character. If the artist just turned in work and the powers that be sorted through it and chose the picture for the character, they felt it was what they wanted and they didn't need to request anything else. Either way, it's been sorted, considred, and put together.

We are not talking about random art.

Further, your half n half comment, I don't know the pic, but who says that's not in the process of changing, like a snap shot?

So yeah, it's a cop out. It's just blowing off too much stuff.

Further, look at the throw breakdown above. Nearly twice as many people would be 10 or 11, as would be 14. Not only that, since that is the average (10 to 11), you'd combine them, meaning that you're gonna find 4 times as many people in that range as are 14s. And of course, 9 and 12 are right there too. That just makes it even MORE unlikely.

And when you look at the whole population, you combine 3-13, and that works out to be 181 out of 216 vs 15 out of 216. No matter how you slice it, the overwhelming bulk of the population would be BELOW 14. And in fact, it would be below 13.

That does make it very high up there. Yeah, "model" "hot" "sexy", that's all subjective. But yet somehow, we all seem to agree that some are attractive and others are ugly. Purely on visuals alone, I can't think of a man alove who thinks that Selma Hayek or Angelina Jolie are not attractive. Or Brittney before marriage. (again, looks alone, ignoring antics)

15 becomes even more exceedingly rare. And above that, you're talking about freaks of nature.

Any way you slice it, 14 would be anywhere from "very nice" to "damn hot". And looking at the numbers, it would be closer to "damn hot".


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:23 am
  

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Palladin

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Bloodspray wrote:
For humans, what is "average"?

I saw an NPC in FOM with a PB of 14 and she was smoking hot. Nearly "stunning". This makes sense if average is 9 (out of 3D6), but it seems that most NPCs, and PCs, running around have well over that, usually in the mid to upper teens. Plus there is all that mess with extra D6's over certain amounts, and so on.


common answer on these boards: "Artwork is not canon."

just think of it as the artists don't want to spend a lot of time on average Plain Jane types or plug-uglies. :P

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:41 pm
  

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Wanderer

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Britt had a nice body but I didn't particularly find her attractive (ignoring bad music and antics even).

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A person of average PB but high MA would probably have people saying they are more attractive than someone with higher PB but lower MA.


A PB of 14 is indeed good looking. Saying things about models and such has little relevance as they are chosen as much for being tall and skinny as they are for beauty.

You can be exceptionally strong and exceptionally beautiful. I know many people who do not have rippling pectorals but are incredibly strong. A farm hand may not look as strong as that guy who spends his days in the gym but in a real world settting he'll probably be much stronger and able to lift more and do more work. Not always but much of the time.

All in all this is fantasy so alll arguements are pointless since a GM can do whatever the hell he wants.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:20 am
  

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Hero

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yup ... thus the plethora of beauties, on the female side i mean, with their PB stat in the 20+ area ARE freaks of nature.

if they are the offspring of gods, maybe ... or of 'another worldly type of beauty [elves and other 5d6 types] also a maybe. but seriously ... when all HUMAN female chars have a20+ on the PB .. race about in rune bikini's .. and other things that set of the insanely high PB, and NOT raise the jealous nature of a 'random goddess of beauty' .. something is so unbalanced there its not even funny.

yes high PB's mean something .... the guy running the female char or the gal in some cases, is one that wants to shag or be shagged by anything that moves? ... kinda icky if you ask me.

My thoughts, while off the wall for most people here, come from the simple belief that the 'prettier a person is on the outside, the shallower they are on the inside'. to date, i still believe that. after all, how many of you grew up hearing 'oh you're so cute' from the opposite gender? .. bet it went to the head, didn't it? ... me being on the solid side didn't hear that at all. in fact, it was the 'skinnies' that got all the attention. mainly cause they looked like the various models or TV hotties.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:09 pm
  

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shiiv-a wrote:
yup ... thus the plethora of beauties, on the female side i mean, with their PB stat in the 20+ area ARE freaks of nature.

if they are the offspring of gods, maybe ... or of 'another worldly type of beauty [elves and other 5d6 types] also a maybe. but seriously ... when all HUMAN female chars have a20+ on the PB .. race about in rune bikini's .. and other things that set of the insanely high PB, and NOT raise the jealous nature of a 'random goddess of beauty' .. something is so unbalanced there its not even funny.

yes high PB's mean something .... the guy running the female char or the gal in some cases, is one that wants to shag or be shagged by anything that moves? ... kinda icky if you ask me.

My thoughts, while off the wall for most people here, come from the simple belief that the 'prettier a person is on the outside, the shallower they are on the inside'. to date, i still believe that. after all, how many of you grew up hearing 'oh you're so cute' from the opposite gender? .. bet it went to the head, didn't it? ... me being on the solid side didn't hear that at all. in fact, it was the 'skinnies' that got all the attention. mainly cause they looked like the various models or TV hotties.


Typical power creep I suspect. Every character suddenly has to be hotter than the hottest was thought to be. It really skews things.

Though I must say that I thought the Runic Bikini was awesome. But then, I *am* a guy. :D

Although the girls do seem to run around farily scantily clad, in fairness, it's not all Boris Vallejo. There's a lot of Rifts art that shows girls in either non-skimpy sexy stuff, or even armor (both enviro and power). And the guys seem to have brought back the armor kilt. Though most wuss out and wear pants under them. And then ther are the T-men, who go around in bikini brifes. lol

I'm trying to come up with something based on an armor-kilt for my Shifter (very Roman/ancient Egyptian, with a smattering of Scot and/or Greek). He should have the PB to pull it off. (I'm going with the idea that RE lost a lot of the pointless taboos we are straddled with today, plus mages would like to show off, since they can't wear armor anyway, why not just go the opposite direction and expose some skin. It's more comfortable and cleaner anyway. Besides, why should the girls be the only ones to have the fun of being a little risque, and why shouldn't the girls get something to look at every now and then? :D )

Interesting points all around about the burdens of super high PBs. I think it's not taken into account mostly because it's an extra burden on the GM, as much as anything else. And Rifts (Palladium stuff in general) doesn't seem too concerned with such realistic things. If it was a modern game with a realism spin to it, I could see it.

Also, the post apocalyptic nature would mean that either you're in a barren wasteland (or forrest), or in a city where everyone is decent to good looking and probably a little flamboyant and risque (which is how I'm picturing magic based cities, due to the artwork - but I think it's an awesome idea). Only on rare occasions would there be enough people for it to be a problem, but few enough of them to lack the sophistication needed for it to be a problem.

But that's a matter of GM style I guess, as much as anything else.

I like the idea of Goddesses of Beauty getting jealous though. I could see even Frigga sending some Valkyries down to take some vengeance. Perfect opportunity for the Rifter 9.5 Rune Weapon "The Ugly Stick" to make an appearance. lol

Hey.... what about psychoses from disfigurements? Hmm.... (downside is that it's getting back to the realism thing, which is not Rifts)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:44 pm
  

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Hero

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you know, this is interesting. i'm usually the one getting ignored. but its cool. like i said, its really hard towant to 'game' with some people online. i don't live in a huge community. mine numbers about 2700. the pickings are really slim for gaming groups here.

that being said, the average male PB i've seen is about a 15-18 ... its like they want to be seen and having a really pretty piece of arm candy? ... but who really knows. i think it would be interesting to actually see people play with realistic PB's myself.
heh .. that being stated, is proud to have at least 3 chars with PB's of 14 and under .... one's even a 10. and that one is not at all interested in people, she's more interested in the toys she builds. an analytical genius.

_________________
Creator of the Chi grenade. Used in game by Kevarin [GM] and self as Mai - Civilian Martial artist that got amped via experiment. Ghost weapons and shirts rule.

Nano Missiles - used once and GM banned further use. They weren't THAT bad. and did stop a demon scout ship from returning with valuable info.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:06 pm
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
Individual preference. If I wanted to play a plain looking, average stated townsperson, I'd have reality.


Except that you have MD weapons and armor, no law, magic and psionics to play with, and get to go 'round fighting vampires, human sized bugs, and dragons.

You have to consider the population, humans are still humans and if anything, the hardships of the dark ages combined with the current state of things is likely to drop the average, even if just a little.

I think it's more believeable to have lines of magic energy covering the planet and people going around casting spells and rubbing elbows with dragons, than it is to have every one of them be impossibly good looking.

Also, plain looking is as much about style as anything else.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:10 pm
  

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shiiv-a wrote:
you know, this is interesting. i'm usually the one getting ignored. but its cool. like i said, its really hard towant to 'game' with some people online. i don't live in a huge community. mine numbers about 2700. the pickings are really slim for gaming groups here.

that being said, the average male PB i've seen is about a 15-18 ... its like they want to be seen and having a really pretty piece of arm candy? ... but who really knows. i think it would be interesting to actually see people play with realistic PB's myself.
heh .. that being stated, is proud to have at least 3 chars with PB's of 14 and under .... one's even a 10. and that one is not at all interested in people, she's more interested in the toys she builds. an analytical genius.


I don't really follow you on that first paragraph.

But, geeky girls can be sexy as hell. Remember Bonnie (and April) from Knight Rider? I'd suspect the PB stat should be a bit fluid. Classic case of the bookworm who lets her hair down and gets a make over and is hot after that. I've seen it happen on What Not To Wear and How Do I Look too many time to think it's just BS.

But anyway.... my character has a PB of 14. But I made it just out of HS and was more interested in PP and PS than anything else. I figured the rest was all just useless fluff. lol


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:05 am
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
So my style of gaming is different than yours. As for no real monsters, meet my ex-wife. The point is the PCs are the exceptional ones. Beauty can be included in their exceptionality.


No. When you say "If I wanted to play a plain looking, average stated townsperson, I'd have reality.", you are saying that your way is the "right" way, and that everyone else is doing things "wrong", or at the very least "boring". Regardless of how you try to dress it up or spin it. (kinda like saying "with all due respect" before saying something disrespectful. It's an "eraser phrase" that is really meaningless)

Furthermore, the players aren't "the exceptional ones". That would be EVERYONE except for CS and NGR citizens. Everyone else is either a magic user, or adventuring man at arms (or close to it - the new west, the cities of magic, etc). The PCs are just the select number of those people that are played by the players, and that's the only thing that makes them "special".

And, if anything, their tendency to go out adventuring will lead to an increased risk of injury, stress, and hardship, which will take it's toll on the body and promote both accelerated age effects and scaring and injury, which would actually decrease PB. As would lack of proper hygene and pampering. AND, for that matter, the inability to really take the time to fancy up - watch some of the make over shows, you'll be amazed at how much difference clothes alone can make, as well as makeup in the case of females. It can be night and day, and easily about 4 or 5 PB points (at the high side).

Now, had you said "I just like my characters to be stunning", that would have been different. And even then, 15-18 would be where ya'd need to be. Unless you have some sort of other explanation to back it up, like decended from gods, or maybe Elven, or something like that. (Well, to make it plausable at least)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:25 am
  

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You give yourself too much credit. I'm not offended, you just don't like getting challenged apparently. OR... you like to argue.

Gotta love those cop outs. "the right way, for me". lol yeah, y'know, I've heard water is wet too, but it seems to just be a rumor. :lol:

You make a statement of absolute truth with nothing to back it up, you ought to expect to be told you're wrong. Trying to spin it with a cop out and accusing the other person of being thin skinned is lame, to say the least.

As for realism.... you're one of those people, huh? Guess we shoudln't have gravity accelerate at 32ft per second, or have 10,000' falls killing people either, huh? Plausibility (or "realism") within the context is a very legitimate concept. It's amazing how so few seem to grasp it. It's really not that complex. You don't throw the baby out with the bath-water, nor do you assume there can be no "realism" just because something fictional is present.

For the record - it WAS just a conversation. You chose to take it in other directions. Sorry. ;)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:49 am
  

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I never said I didn't like to argue - or more importantly, that I wouldn't argue with people making incorrect absolute statements like you.

You do love the cop outs though. Nothing you said here has any substance at all. Just stating the obvious as though it meant something, and not geting anywhere near what's actually being talked about. lol


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:36 pm
  

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Fighting has such a low PB

i put you each at about a 6 or 7.

(Just havin some fun boys)

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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:49 pm
  

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Bloodspray wrote:
For humans, what is "average"?

I saw an NPC in FOM with a PB of 14 and she was smoking hot. Nearly "stunning". This makes sense if average is 9 (out of 3D6), but it seems that most NPCs, and PCs, running around have well over that, usually in the mid to upper teens. Plus there is all that mess with extra D6's over certain amounts, and so on.


average for Humans in any attribute is 8-12 with the median being 10.
i have sat down and through math averaged out attribute die rolls from1D6 to 8D6.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:41 pm
  

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i'm more conserned about the range. Is a 3 just a plain-looking person, or a tentacled puddle of goo?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:49 pm
  

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Hero

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*stabs random posters then tosses the messy tool away*

anyways ... PB should be removed from the stat listings if you ask. but that comment is because of all the bad press and bad examples of whatever flavored bovine fecal matter of hte month club.

yeah .. a PB of 14 is a tad above average ... BUT its should be taken along with a grain of salt. its the MA that should be associated with the PB. so .. all in all. think about it as the PB + MA out of a 1d100 ... and MAYBE you'll get a real response ...
thus
IF they make it .. cool ... if they miss by .. [say 10 points] .. people are kinda cool towards the PC .. and if its higher than a 10 point failure .. the more 'hostile' the interacting will be

oh wait .. then you'll still have uber high stats for those two rolls ... darn. thought i had it figured out ... guess not. *goes off to think it over again*

_________________
Creator of the Chi grenade. Used in game by Kevarin [GM] and self as Mai - Civilian Martial artist that got amped via experiment. Ghost weapons and shirts rule.

Nano Missiles - used once and GM banned further use. They weren't THAT bad. and did stop a demon scout ship from returning with valuable info.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:16 pm
  

You know, I think I'm just going to replace PB's attribute number with the following table:
1. Grotesque
2. Hideous
3. Disgusting
4. Repugnant
5. Repulsive
6. Revolting
7. Homely
8. Ill-favored
9. Unattractive
10. Unimpressive
11. Plain
12. Fair
13. Comely
14. Cute
15. Pretty
16. Attractive
17. Lovely
18. Beautiful
19. Gorgeous/Handsome
20. Breathtaking

Yes, that's the whole table, nothing else, no penalties or bonuses, just an adjective.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:41 pm
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
Bloodspray wrote:
I never said I didn't like to argue - or more importantly, that I wouldn't argue with people making incorrect absolute statements like you.

You do love the cop outs though. Nothing you said here has any substance at all. Just stating the obvious as though it meant something, and not geting anywhere near what's actually being talked about. lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You're so full of bovine excrement here. But whatever. I notice those who disagree with you are wrong, argumentative, use cop outs, and incorrect universal rules.


If that makes you feel better, by all means, beleive it. But if the truth matters, it's only people who use cop outs and flat out incorrect yet make absolute statements. .... like you. lol

(if you took the time to read for comprehension you would find that there have been a number of people who disagreed and a civil and reasonable exchange of ideas took place - but they never behaved like you, which means everything.)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:21 am
  

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Adventurer

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Nice and easy way to fix the whole god-like beauty thing ...here ya go...

A 10 is average by human standards, if everyone is an absolute knockout by our real world standards, then drop those stat whores P.B. back to 10.

Why?

Because their not exeptional, they are average. :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:16 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Bloodspray wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
Bloodspray wrote:
I never said I didn't like to argue - or more importantly, that I wouldn't argue with people making incorrect absolute statements like you.

You do love the cop outs though. Nothing you said here has any substance at all. Just stating the obvious as though it meant something, and not geting anywhere near what's actually being talked about. lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You're so full of bovine excrement here. But whatever. I notice those who disagree with you are wrong, argumentative, use cop outs, and incorrect universal rules.


If that makes you feel better, by all means, beleive it. But if the truth matters, it's only people who use cop outs and flat out incorrect yet make absolute statements. .... like you. lol

(if you took the time to read for comprehension you would find that there have been a number of people who disagreed and a civil and reasonable exchange of ideas took place - but they never behaved like you, which means everything.)


Knock it off.

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Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:35 pm
  

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duck-foot wrote:
average for Humans in any attribute is 8-12 with the median being 10.
i have sat down and through math averaged out attribute die rolls from1D6 to 8D6.


The average of 1D6 is 3.5 (sum 1 through 6 and divide by 6, or add 1 and 6 then divide by 2). For the average of several D6's just multiply 3.5 by the number of dice.
The average of 3D6 is 10.5.
The average attribute (3D6, +1D6 if it's 16 or higher) is 10.66.
The odds of an attribute falling in the exceptional range (16 or higher) is 4.63%.

(I play with Excel too much.)

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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:23 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
Didn't Koosy post all kinds of statistics about this already? :P


But I added the 4.63% line. 8) (Which, by the way, means that only 1 out of every 21.6 attributes should be above 16. So roughly every third character should have a single exceptional attribute.)

And here's some more fun: Some folks have a rule that if you earn the bonus die, and if you roll a 6 on it, then you get to roll an additional 1D6 (for a possible max score of 30). With this method...
The average leaps to 10.69 (up from 10.66).
The odds of a score being 16+ remain at 4.63% (still 1 in 21.6 attributes).
The odds of a score being 25+ are 0.58% (1 in 172.8 attributes, or 1 in every 21.6 people!) :shock:

:lol:

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Love your neighbor.
It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:27 pm
  

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Mack wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
Didn't Koosy post all kinds of statistics about this already? :P


But I added the 4.63% line. 8) (Which, by the way, means that only 1 out of every 21.6 attributes should be above 16. So roughly every third character should have a single exceptional attribute.)

And here's some more fun: Some folks have a rule that if you earn the bonus die, and if you roll a 6 on it, then you get to roll an additional 1D6 (for a possible max score of 30). With this method...
The average leaps to 10.69 (up from 10.66).
The odds of a score being 16+ remain at 4.63% (still 1 in 21.6 attributes).
The odds of a score being 25+ are 0.58% (1 in 172.8 attributes, or 1 in every 21.6 people!) :shock:

:lol:

How you you get a .6 person? :D
I think those are called "dwarves."


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:31 pm
  

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Kuseru Satsujin wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
How you you get a .6 person? :D
I think those are called "dwarves."

No, those are bearded people. Even, and especially the women.


"What you need is a good dwarven woman... with a beard you CAN HANG ON TOO! AHAHAH! "


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 Post subject: Re: PB question
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:43 pm
  

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Supreme Being

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
How you you get a .6 person? :D


Well, you start with keg of beer and a nice sharp axe...

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It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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