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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:32 am
  

Hero

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:57 am
Posts: 1478
Location: F*ck off.
Posted this in the PFRPG, but it fits here too, soooo.

Here ya go.


The biggest Irk I've had about the combat system with weaponry is, why do people not only level up every weapon skill they have at once, each level, but also maintain nearly identical bonuses/attacks per melee with them. (I.E. if I can swing a claymore around just as often as a dagger, what reason is there to use a dagger besides style? No benefit for a smaller, lighter, inherently quicker weapon?)

I've often toyed with trying to figure out how to introduce some sort of delay factor, wherein the weapon has a certain base attacks per melee, and only skill/magic/both will get it whipped around faster.

Then it hit me! The other RPG I'm playing, an MMORPG (Final Fantasy Online) has a wide selection of weapons which one could find in a PF book, and a system of delays/damage that could be adjusted over with just a bit of tinkering...so, without further ado.


It isn't an exact translation of the delays in the game, just based on it in general.


Daggers 150/180/200/210

Swords 220/235/240/255

Long Swords (1h) 260/275/290

Axes (1h) 260/275/290/315

Club/Maces 290/310/340

Polearm/Spears/Staves (2h) 350/380/400/450/500/550

Great Swords (2h) 410/430/445/480

Great Axes (2h) 480/500/530

Now, the general way to find out the actual attacks per melee, takes a bit of math at first, but you could later just list the "Base" APM with the weapons stats.

Let's chose a favorite of mine, Great Axes.

Delay 500, add the decimal (5.00) and divide into 15 seconds (3).

With a Great Axe and basic training, you can get three attacks per melee round.

Let's go for the lowest delay dagger (a wee little wisp of a stylet say) k?

Delay 150, add the decimal (1.50) and divide into 15 seconds (10)

Where is the balance? Well, said 150 delay dagger is generally going to do some pitiful damage, something like 1d3 (d6 where 1 or 2 is 1, etc) so all of it's flurry of swings is going to do 10-30 damage.

The much slower great axe is naturally going to hurt a lot more to have thunked into your side, 4d6 or so damage would be appropriate, takes longer to bring it around, but the trade off is significantly improved damage when/if you land a hit.


Now on to my other quibble, about how you can get Sword to level 15 skill, without ever once wielding one, as the system stands currently.

I decided to mix this up with another idea I liked from FFO, and get two birds with one stone (a stylistic, and a progression one, that is).

It seemed to me that there was no method to represent a more skilled users added technique/knowledge as is, yeah, he gets a little more chance to hit, and in some cases a bit more damage, but is there no reason why he can't have learned some sort of (oh so popular and cool among lots of cartoons/manga/videogames) finishing move?

Then, assuming he has such a move, how do you balance it so he can't simply declare over and over that he is using his "Moon Crescent Blade of Death!" on every foe that comes his way?

Again, the idea for this came to me from how FFO's combat works, you get a bar that fills up when you successfully land a strike, and when it gets full, you can unleash special abilities, some of which are awesome, and just plain fun.

How to translate that to this game? It hit me to do something simple, it sounds good in my head, so I thought that you should land two full melee rounds worth of hits before you can use a "Special Technique" this way neither the speed demons, nor the slow and ponderous weapons gain an advantage in how often they can use the abilities. The law of averages leading the middle delays to be more desireable somewhat if just because it will be easier to land their quota of hits consistently.

Interestingly, swords, one handed axes, clubs, all fall into that range.


How does this apply to improving ones skill with the weapon? Simple! You perform say 10 Special Techniques with the weapon at level 1, you reach level 2 with it and can learn a new skill, at level 2, you perform 20, 3, takes 30, so on and so forth, seems to fit well with the leveling system already in place, and would encourage you to either take time to work with a variety of weapons, or focus on one and become a true master in its use.

Keep in mind, I'm still roughing out the idea, and it would of course take an additional chart with the recalculated APM/Delay notes figured in, and of course I still need to work out how to apply the Strike/Parry/Throw/Damage bonuses when you reach a new level with a weapon, but the idea seems quite feasible, and wouldn't require a bunch of additional dice rolling, just a set of counters at most, to keep track of your hit quota til technique use.

Thoughts? Additions? Insulting dismissals?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:01 am
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 12:14 pm
Posts: 568
Location: Joplin, Mo: Cenobite country
ive always thought that every other attack with a big weapon would take 2 attacks. i hate math. but a good idea. keep workn on that. point is if it works for your table, then play on.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:52 am
  

Hero

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:29 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
i like the idea, it seems fairly solid and well thought out.

but ... there is always a but ... i'm not sure that this would add anything to the playing experience except to complicate things further. i personaly prefer fast, simple and straight forward with out the need to break out an abacus to figure out a single action.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:57 am
Posts: 1478
Location: F*ck off.
Eh, wouldnt need an abacus though.

I'd just put a notation by the weapons with their Attacks per Melee so you knew before you even grabbed one for your character.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:53 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:36 pm
Posts: 178
Location: Canada
I had always thought the palladium system had already taken care of that. Its been awhile since i have read the combat rules for melee weapons. I thought how they worked is a two handed weapon did do more damage, how ever you lose the ability to use a shield or paired weapon. Which meant you could only parry one attack per melee directed at you.

where the character with the one handed weapon could parry once, block with a shield if they have it or a paired weapon declare a second parry on the off weapon instead of a double strike.

Everything in a melee action phase happens all at once, their not separate time intervals. where 3-4 npc's attack the one pc all at the same time and the pc can not defend against all of them (unless they have autododge or some other unlimited defense option).

I could be wrong though about the melee combat rules. It has been a long time since i have read them.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:06 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 2262
Melee is back and forth. The one with initiative attacks first. The defender gets a chance to parry or dodge (or simultaneous strike, I guess). Now the defender is the attacker. If there are only two fighters, repeat until attacks are exhausted. If one fighter has more attacks per melee round, then when the one with lesser attacks runs out, there is nothing left but to try to parry or auto-dodge. Like when facing multiple attackers. Multiple attackers means the one ganged upon will be out of attacks before the end of the melee round, but can still parry and auto-dodge the incoming attacks.

Round two goes exactly like round one, unless initiative has somehow changed (such as the one with initiative is knocked and loses initiative). Some GMs roll initiative every round, which is another way of changing initiative.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:52 am
  

Adventurer

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:32 am
Posts: 683
Love the first part about the weapons and speed, though I don't really see how it would truly add anything to the experience of battle. Maybe just making a House Rule where daggers and whatnot get an extra attack per melee, swords and other one-handed weapons stay the same, and 2-handed weapons along with weapons of a certain weight and above lose 1 attack per melee.

Now, as far as the second part goes....

The same thing happens with skills that gain 5% per level but are never used. You can either make the character's skills only rise in level if they have actually used them a set number of times in that level, or just make them all rise at the same time. I prefer to make my games very realistic, but alas, realistic doesn't always make the game more fun, so I usually go wih the former instead of the latter even though the latter is more realistic IMHO. The same thing goes for weapons. [/quote]


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:04 am
  

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Sosyourfacist

Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:40 pm
Posts: 1581
Location: M.I.A.
Comment: This space for rent. Inquire within!
strangley I have been working on just this sort of problem. Actually I been modifying the entire system and am nearing completion. The way I handle weapons, is that I made a tiered system, feat tree, power categories, whatever you want to call them. With each level of the WP, the player can select a category to increase his ability with the weapon, depending on the type of weapon he can increase his offensive, defensive or weapon speed skill. And since certain weapons are better at different aspects of combat, they have bonuses or limitations determining how they advance in the different catagories.

If anyone's interested in taking a gander at them, PM and I'll send you a copy.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:40 am
  

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Explorer

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:36 pm
Posts: 150
Location: Northville, Michigan
Of course, all this usually goes out the window when you are dealing with supernatural strength.

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