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 Post subject: Rifts: Big Bore Rulings
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:43 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:29 pm
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So the gun in question is the Bandito 5050 "Papa Bear" medium rail gun from the Black Market sourcebook

I know about the Big bore knock down capabilities and rulings, save for one instance of it.

Is it per round? This gun can shoot a single, a short burst and a long burst. A couple weeks ago, the player fired the long burst at a target (who was using a jetpack no less) and assumed I was going to roll 5 D20s per bore round to save against. Not that I'm lazy, but I deemed it an inefficient amount of time for me to do that every time in combat. A bit disgruntled but the combat went on.

We talked about it later, and he feels its unfair that it's just up to one roll. I get it, 5 rounds hitting one target would mean 5 different hits, but this is a game with rules, and Rifts combat already takes forever. We talked but nothing was really settled, so I went to looking at the Black Market book for rules. I know the New West had it originally, but it's a bit dated and thought that a newer book may have a bit of an update. It sorta does.

So the 5050 shoots the Big Bore shotgun rounds. There's nothing there about burst fire, just the simple "The roll must be equal or surpass the attacker's natural roll to strike." (BM, 137) I can only but interpret that to include both single and burst fire, otherwise it would have been noted.

Anyone else do something different?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:41 am
  

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Monk

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The Rate of fire says "That each shot or burst counts as one melee attack,..." Since per the core combat rules a burst counts as one attack so a "Save verses Knock Down" is rolled once.

However....
It is also assumed within the burst damages of automatic fire from projectile weapons, that not all of the rounds will hit. So based on the listed damages for the 5050's bursts it is presumed that of 5050's short burst only two rounds will hit and of the long burst only 3 of the rounds will hit with a normal strike roll.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:13 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
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Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
So the gun in question is the Bandito 5050 "Papa Bear" medium rail gun from the Black Market sourcebook

I know about the Big bore knock down capabilities and rulings, save for one instance of it.

Is it per round? This gun can shoot a single, a short burst and a long burst. A couple weeks ago, the player fired the long burst at a target (who was using a jetpack no less) and assumed I was going to roll 5 D20s per bore round to save against. Not that I'm lazy, but I deemed it an inefficient amount of time for me to do that every time in combat. A bit disgruntled but the combat went on.

We talked about it later, and he feels its unfair that it's just up to one roll. I get it, 5 rounds hitting one target would mean 5 different hits, but this is a game with rules, and Rifts combat already takes forever. We talked but nothing was really settled, so I went to looking at the Black Market book for rules. I know the New West had it originally, but it's a bit dated and thought that a newer book may have a bit of an update. It sorta does.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, New West and Big Bore weapons originally, but it did not have the "Papa Bear" (at least not that I found). New West does have the Bandito 5000 "Big Bear," which is the blueprint for the "Papa Bear." The book is worth looking at for this situation. Now, the "Big Bear" (New West, page 175) tells us that it has the "same" knock down as the sawed-off BB-Mule. If we look at the BB-Mule (New West, page 174) the shotgun can fire a single or double-barrel blast. However, the knock down rules here make no distinguishing lines between the two forms of attack. While the damage varies based upon the type of attack used, the knock down rules remain unchanged.

P.S. The "Papa Bear" fires 3 (short) and 6 (long) rounds bursts. I'm not sure where the 5 round burst is coming from?

Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
So the 5050 shoots the Big Bore shotgun rounds. There's nothing there about burst fire, just the simple "The roll must be equal or surpass the attacker's natural roll to strike." (BM, 137) I can only but interpret that to include both single and burst fire, otherwise it would have been noted.

With Palladium, it's possible this is an oversight. However, in this case, I'd agree with you. The New West BB-Mule write-up helps give some validation to this, and the wording you found in Black Market help supports this concept further. As an individual, I can offer two rationales ...

1: Impact. The reason for the knock down (as far as I can tell) is due to the "explosive rounds." The amount of damage doesn't matter, just the explosion impacting the body. Because this is a burst, the rounds fire in rapid succession and the impact of all the explosions are hitting at effectively the same time. While they may technically happen fraction of seconds apart, the body will feel it as one single explosion. As a result, the victim would (mechanically) only need to react to one (single die roll).

2: Game Design. Not only does more rolls slow the game down, but the more times you have to roll something the more likely you are to fail. If you had to roll once for each shell fired (even though the write-up specifically tells us not all the rounds hit in the "Rate of Fire"), the odds of a failed roll increase. That's 6 rolls for the first burst, 12 rolls by the second burst, 18 rolls by the third burst, and 24 rolls by the fourth burst. I don't feel like doing the odds, but I think you can get an idea of how likely you are to fail at least one roll on a D20 if you roll 24 times. So for expedience of game play, and for some semblance of game balance, rolling only once per burst makes sense.

Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
Anyone else do something different?

I don't know the player, so I'll try to avoid jumping to any snap judgments on his motivations. If you simply want to find an in-game ruling or support for a stance, then I think the above covers it the best I can. In my personal opinion, the odds are already highly in his favor and I don't see the need to stack them even more so. The rules only allow a single D20 roll with a -6 penalty to save. Victims don't seem to get any bonuses (I'd think a Roll with Impact would be appropriate, because while you can't roll with a bullet, you can roll with an explosion). Since you have to beat his strike roll (Black Market clarifies this to his "Natural" roll only), he still has a 30% edge on his victims.

However, if you feel his case is just and are looking for a compromise that won't slow combat but might still help appease the player, then I might recommend a save modifier. So decide ahead of time how many rounds will hit (say 3 or 4). Then add in a -1 or -2 penalty to the save for each extra round. If I were going to make such a ruling (and this is mostly off the top of my head at this moment), I'd probably say something like having the player roll a 1D4 (to save time, he can roll the D4 at the same time as his D20). Add that to the penalty modifier. If you want a -2 penalty for each extra round, I'd say just have him roll 2D4 and take that number (not precise, but quick and simple). So if he rolls a Natural 8 to hit, and roll 3 and 2 on his 2D4 bonus (8+5=13), you'd need to roll ... a 19 or 20 to save (because you're at -6). This would increase his chances for knock down, while not nigh negating the chances for a save, and keep combat running rather smoothly. While I personally think that's a little too slanted in his favor, I want to provide options. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:58 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:29 pm
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I think I've pretty much settled with RAW and will be telling the player at the next session. I just wanted to see if anyone else did something different for whatever reasons.

The 5 rounds hitting the target comes from the disclaimer in the book saying that not all rounds hit the target due to inaccuracy and less control from a burst shot. 6 round burst but 5 or less rounds actually hit the target. That's all.

I agree with both your points on Impact and Game Design. If it's all suppose to happen within one attack then the rounds would be nearly at the same time. I already hate having to do rolls upon rolls, this would just use up more time and cause headaches to keep track of. One roll makes much more sense.


Also, can you tell me where the -6 came from? Unless I'm overlooking something obvious.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:22 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
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Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
Also, can you tell me where the -6 came from? Unless I'm overlooking something obvious.

Greetings and Salutations. Black Market, page 137 ...

Quote:
Human and human-sized D-Bees must roll a 20 sided die with a -6 penalty to stay standing. The roll must equal or surpass the attacker's roll to strike.

Bold added by me. New West had very similar wording. Unless I'm misreading something, I think you just overlooked something obvious. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:23 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:29 pm
Posts: 41
Prysus wrote:
Shamrock 'Slinger wrote:
Also, can you tell me where the -6 came from? Unless I'm overlooking something obvious.

Greetings and Salutations. Black Market, page 137 ...

Quote:
Human and human-sized D-Bees must roll a 20 sided die with a -6 penalty to stay standing. The roll must equal or surpass the attacker's roll to strike.

Bold added by me. New West had very similar wording. Unless I'm misreading something, I think you just overlooked something obvious. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



Yep, it was under my nose and knew it all along...

Thank you!


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