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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:47 pm
  

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Hero

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I always wondered why characters from the Phase World setting dont use the "Education Level" table from Heroes Unlimited. I mean, the setting of the Three Galaxies is one with civilizations that existed for milennias so they are bound to have an educational system ranging from simple pre-schools up to universities of all sorts.

I understand that the O.C.C. system simulates an specialized training in a specific area that one undergoes for years before becoming a member of that specific O.C.C., but I never understood why in a setting that is not a post-apocalypse scenario one cannot benefit from the setting high-level degree of education.

So the question is: How would you adapt the Heroes Unlimited Education Level table to reflect the O.C.C. system?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:10 pm
  

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Monk

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Nightmaster wrote:
snip...

So the question is: How would you adapt the Heroes Unlimited Education Level table to reflect the O.C.C. system?

I wouldn't.
The Character Class (CC) system is <adjective with a mild negative meaning> as it is. Because of things in it that are messed up.
The HU ed system is much more flexible when and reflects a high tech education better then the CC system.

I might do one of two things...
...write something up for the CC system to let good and bad education systems affect the class skills.
...let Ed system chars use some 'Class Skill Sets' as skill programs.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:22 pm
  

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Hero

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I might do one of two things...
...write something up for the CC system to let good and bad education systems affect the class skills.

As far as I remember the Ed system dont have penalties to skill programs, but your idea is not bad.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
...let Ed system chars use some 'Class Skill Sets' as skill programs.

And OCC related skills would be considered as another skill program?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:46 pm
  

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Monk

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Nightmaster wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I might do one of two things...
...write something up for the CC system to let good and bad education systems affect the class skills.

As far as I remember the Ed system dont have penalties to skill programs, but your idea is not bad.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
...let Ed system chars use some 'Class Skill Sets' as skill programs.

And OCC related skills would be considered as another skill program?


Knee jerk answer would be No....however, the CC Related skills sets could be seen as 'sort of' a type of free form Skill Program. However, I would not just let them be used so willy nilly because of the variablity in the number of skills in each, & there wouldn't be any level up skills from ant CC Related 'skill program'.

SideNote: When I am talking about Character Classes as a whole I use CC because there are RCCs and PCCs besides OCCs within the CC template system.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:30 pm
  

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Hero

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Could it not more simple to simple apply a given bonus to OCC skills and related based on the education level of the character and stick with the highest ones in case the education bonus is higher than the OCC bonus? Just an idea


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:04 pm
  

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Palladin

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I think you're missing a key point here, the OCC you see are representative of classes meant for use as PC and NPC, they aren't meant to be the end-all and be-all of things were everyone's educated to produce one of these specialized educational fields. For the general masses education likely does follow something like the standard educational system as seen in the Heroes Unlimited line but people aren't playing bankers or street cleaners or corporate CEO who'd be represented by that but the larger-than-life specialized areas like CAF Scientist or Colonist.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:19 pm
  

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Champion

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Nightmaster wrote:
So the question is: How would you adapt the Heroes Unlimited Education Level table to reflect the O.C.C. system?

Greetings and Salutations. Combining the two wouldn't be smooth, but I'd use the Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide notes starting on page 190 as a starting point. In the notes it refers to those Skill Programs as "O.C.C." and also mentions they'd cost the equivalent of two Earth skill programs.

Phase World already has an O.C.C. system in place, as does Rifts in general, and I won't throw that out all together. Instead, I'd recommend keeping the basic starting O.C.C. skills (removing Related and Secondary), and then have them replace two or three Skill Programs from Education (I say "or three" because I'd do a count check of the number of skills, and if I felt the Rifts/Phase World O.C.C. had more skills than the packages in Galaxy Guide, I'd bump it up to three, maybe). Then continue education as normal. Since the O.C.C. would take the place of two Skill Programs, in some cases this will mean there's little difference. If anything, it might mean that the Rifts O.C.C. would actually take LESS skills (because we're now ignoring Related). In other cases, like the high ends of education (or very specialized training) the character can select a few extra Skill Packages, and more Secondary Skills than normal.

That's if you really wanted to try and include the Education system into Rifts/Phase World. I'm not entirely sure it would be worth the effort though. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:39 am
  

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Why not just give standard skills based off the advancement of your civilization, then if any double up in OCC skills, give the character additional secondary skills?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:39 pm
  

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Hero

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Nightmask wrote:
I think you're missing a key point here, the OCC you see are representative of classes meant for use as PC and NPC, they aren't meant to be the end-all and be-all of things were everyone's educated to produce one of these specialized educational fields. For the general masses education likely does follow something like the standard educational system as seen in the Heroes Unlimited line but people aren't playing bankers or street cleaners or corporate CEO who'd be represented by that but the larger-than-life specialized areas like CAF Scientist or Colonist.

Then explain to me why super heroes of all kinds (from mutants to hardware users) have access to these bonus? They are by nature larger than life individuals and not simple bankers, lawyers and etc...

The O.C.C. system is perfect for fantasy and post-apocalyptic scenarios where knowledge sharing is quite restricted. It fall really good with the idea of guilds and orders and is perfect for the scenario mechanics of "Master and Disciple" that is quite commom in fantasy settings.

The problem is that Phase World as a scenario combines both fantasy/space opera and modern civilization in one package and yet people can be even illiterate. Only five O.C.C./R.C.C. in the Phase World book gives the player start access to the literacy skill... :roll:


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:45 pm
  

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Hero

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Prysus wrote:
Nightmaster wrote:
So the question is: How would you adapt the Heroes Unlimited Education Level table to reflect the O.C.C. system?

Greetings and Salutations. Combining the two wouldn't be smooth, but I'd use the Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide notes starting on page 190 as a starting point. In the notes it refers to those Skill Programs as "O.C.C." and also mentions they'd cost the equivalent of two Earth skill programs.

Phase World already has an O.C.C. system in place, as does Rifts in general, and I won't throw that out all together. Instead, I'd recommend keeping the basic starting O.C.C. skills (removing Related and Secondary), and then have them replace two or three Skill Programs from Education (I say "or three" because I'd do a count check of the number of skills, and if I felt the Rifts/Phase World O.C.C. had more skills than the packages in Galaxy Guide, I'd bump it up to three, maybe). Then continue education as normal. Since the O.C.C. would take the place of two Skill Programs, in some cases this will mean there's little difference. If anything, it might mean that the Rifts O.C.C. would actually take LESS skills (because we're now ignoring Related). In other cases, like the high ends of education (or very specialized training) the character can select a few extra Skill Packages, and more Secondary Skills than normal.

That's if you really wanted to try and include the Education system into Rifts/Phase World. I'm not entirely sure it would be worth the effort though. Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

The problem with your approach is that unless the character is a college student for at least 3 years, he will only have access to 2 skill programs (looked in the table) and that would make the character have only his O.C.C. skills at the start of the game.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:06 pm
  

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Hero

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I mused over this matter and I have come with an idea. The player must roll on the education Table as normal, but the rewards/effects would be different and would be additions to his O.C.C./R.C.C.

I am still working on the specifics for the bonus and rewards and any suggestions are welcome


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:15 pm
  

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Champion

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Nightmaster wrote:
The problem with your approach is that unless the character is a college student for at least 3 years, he will only have access to 2 skill programs (looked in the table) and that would make the character have only his O.C.C. skills at the start of the game.

Greetings and Salutations. You forgot about Secondary Skills that come with education, but more or less accurate and I mention this fact in my post. Though at least one military education gives more skill programs too.

However, I think you're overestimating the HU education system. Your issue comes with characters with only two skill packages. So let's look at that. Two skill packages in HU2 will get you between 8 and 10 total skills (not counting Secondary). An O.C.C. skill package (from Rifts) will probably get you 12 on the low end. So you'd get MORE skills from the O.C.C. than the Education system anyways. Basically if you want the O.C.C. Skills, then it works out better. If you don't want it, then don't select it and use the Education system as normal.

So the real issue you seem to have isn't that the Rifts O.C.C. system doesn't represent education, but that you have issues with the HU education system as well. I can agree with this (to an extent). You also seem to think high school students should.be.more skilled than dedicated professionals. I'm not sure I agree there. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:09 pm
  

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Hero

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Prysus wrote:
Nightmaster wrote:
The problem with your approach is that unless the character is a college student for at least 3 years, he will only have access to 2 skill programs (looked in the table) and that would make the character have only his O.C.C. skills at the start of the game.

Greetings and Salutations. You forgot about Secondary Skills that come with education, but more or less accurate and I mention this fact in my post. Though at least one military education gives more skill programs too.

However, I think you're overestimating the HU education system. Your issue comes with characters with only two skill packages. So let's look at that. Two skill packages in HU2 will get you between 8 and 10 total skills (not counting Secondary). An O.C.C. skill package (from Rifts) will probably get you 12 on the low end. So you'd get MORE skills from the O.C.C. than the Education system anyways. Basically if you want the O.C.C. Skills, then it works out better. If you don't want it, then don't select it and use the Education system as normal.

So the real issue you seem to have isn't that the Rifts O.C.C. system doesn't represent education, but that you have issues with the HU education system as well. I can agree with this (to an extent). You also seem to think high school students should.be.more skilled than dedicated professionals. I'm not sure I agree there. Farewell and safe journeys.

I didnt mentioned secondary skills because all O.C.C.s have then and I am not overestimating the HU education system :)

I came from a country (Brazil) where Professional High School education is quite commom, that is, instead of a normal high school you go to a high school that is focused on an specific area/profession and when you graduate you are considered qualified to work in that profession. I dont think that high school students should be better than dedicated professionals but at the same time I dont think that a dedicated professional that didnt had a formal education (or a quality education in modern times) prior to the start of his training in a given area would be a good professional in the end. We here in Brazil see that effect first hand with our deficient public education system that generates professionals barely adequate to work in a given area. The same occur with "Quotas" in universities reserved for public system graduates that otherwise would not have the minimal grades to even be accepted in a college. In the end most of those abandon the college because they cant keep up with the disciplines (they lack the necessary knowledge to grasp then) and those that eventually graduate have grades far bellow the other graduates.

You end up with two types of professionals in that situation:
- One really skilled (prior education or good quality education)
- One that is barely adequate to work in the area (no education or bad education prior)

That can be sumarized as quality.

In the case of the Phase World setting, and that is my focus here, you dont see the existing of a formal education system playing any role or having any synergy in character creation. That's why I asked for opinions on how to adapt the Ed System for use in the Phase World setting.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:16 pm
  

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Palladin

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Nightmaster wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
I think you're missing a key point here, the OCC you see are representative of classes meant for use as PC and NPC, they aren't meant to be the end-all and be-all of things were everyone's educated to produce one of these specialized educational fields. For the general masses education likely does follow something like the standard educational system as seen in the Heroes Unlimited line but people aren't playing bankers or street cleaners or corporate CEO who'd be represented by that but the larger-than-life specialized areas like CAF Scientist or Colonist.


Then explain to me why super heroes of all kinds (from mutants to hardware users) have access to these bonus? They are by nature larger than life individuals and not simple bankers, lawyers and etc...

The O.C.C. system is perfect for fantasy and post-apocalyptic scenarios where knowledge sharing is quite restricted. It fall really good with the idea of guilds and orders and is perfect for the scenario mechanics of "Master and Disciple" that is quite commom in fantasy settings.

The problem is that Phase World as a scenario combines both fantasy/space opera and modern civilization in one package and yet people can be even illiterate. Only five O.C.C./R.C.C. in the Phase World book gives the player start access to the literacy skill... :roll:


You do realize that being a member of a modern civilization or greater is NOT a guarantee to be literate or even be able to more than rudimentary math right? Which is why you can find OCC that don't make Literacy available starting out, or one had to have it selected as an optional skill rather than starting with it as a given. You're suffering from the Reality is Unrealistic Trope.

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'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:23 pm
  

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Knight

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I don't think he is, because literacy rates in modern nations in reality are awesomely high. You have to go looking for people who don't know how to read, and it can take a bit if you don't know where to start.

An extreme high percentage of people who have been processed through public education have a reasonable grasp of their native written language. I don't think it's ridiculous to make basic math and literacy a given if you're from a modern society. There are many OCCs that reflect this by giving literacy as a starting skill, or giving bonuses to literacy if you choose it later on. However, that isn't the same as learning to read and write in first grade.

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Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:37 am
  

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Hero

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Nightmask wrote:
You do realize that being a member of a modern civilization or greater is NOT a guarantee to be literate or even be able to more than rudimentary math right? Which is why you can find OCC that don't make Literacy available starting out, or one had to have it selected as an optional skill rather than starting with it as a given. You're suffering from the Reality is Unrealistic Trope.

And you do realize that illiteracy in modern times is quite low even in deficient education systems around the world. Here in brazil we have less than 7,4% of our population illiterate and that for US is a lot. I reckon that same rating is below 2% in USA or Europe. In a spacefaring society a illiterate person simply would be unable to do anything since everything would require the individual to read, from simple readouts in a wrist console to astrogation diagrams in a navigation computer.

The REALITY is that in a modern day civilization, or a great civilization if we talk about spacefaring societies, literacy is the norm for over 95% of the population.

ONU's literacy ratings say our world have a 86,1% of the population that is older than 15 capable of read/write and that number is pulled down because of very very poor countries in Africa and Asia that have illiteracy ratings as high as 70%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... eracy_rate


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:33 pm
  

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Hero

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Well... reading is fundamental. Unless you're Karl Prosek.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:07 pm
  

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Demon Lord Extraordinaire

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Nightmaster wrote:
I always wondered why characters from the Phase World setting dont use the "Education Level" table from Heroes Unlimited. I mean, the setting of the Three Galaxies is one with civilizations that existed for milennias so they are bound to have an educational system ranging from simple pre-schools up to universities of all sorts.

I understand that the O.C.C. system simulates an specialized training in a specific area that one undergoes for years before becoming a member of that specific O.C.C., but I never understood why in a setting that is not a post-apocalypse scenario one cannot benefit from the setting high-level degree of education.

So the question is: How would you adapt the Heroes Unlimited Education Level table to reflect the O.C.C. system?


I could have sworn there was a couple alien skill programs in either AU or AUGG that just the aliens could take in order to reflect their education background, but now I can't find it. Maybe it was in a Rifter. Either way, perhaps you could use those instead.


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