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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:46 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
SpiritInterface wrote:
I would love to see a squad assualt a building in full Bomb Disposal Armor, it would be keystone cops time.

Cooks and Mechanics don't wear as heavy of armor as combat troops is that it would interfere with them doing their job.

Um yes....Yes they do. When I was not actually inside a shelter I was wearing the EXACT same armor that the combat troops were wearing. The exact same armor. Plus I carried my M-4 assault rifle, with its M-203 grenade launcher as my side arm. And ammo, for both. You only got hand grenades if you went off base though. Plus a gas mask, and night vision. Full load out of combat gear. Since my buddy was a machine gunner I carried spare ammo for him too. Note that we were maintenance. So YES Mechanics wear as heavy of armor as combat troops, at least in real life.

SpiritInterface wrote:
What you are basically saying is that the rules aren't really the rules, they are more of a guideline. Ok, I am cool with that.

As someone who plays Magic OCCs alot I know how useful the are in combat. That being said not one of my mages could be mistaken as a combat trooper in heavy armor and carrying a combat rifle.

That's cool. If that's how you like to play it, and that works for you more power to you. I have some mages that whine about having to wear armor...and some that are probably more geared than some mercs...

SpiritInterface wrote:
You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying! I you are playing a mage, play a mage not a combat trooper with a gun. If you are playing a powered hero, play a powered hero not a hardware with a gun.

I think your projecting your idealization of what you prefer a mage to be as some how what a mage should be. There is a huge difference.

SpiritInterface wrote:
I never said that Magic OCCs, PCCs shouldn't wear armor, just that they shouldn't wear heavy or assault armor. My complaint was that many GMs and Players have basically abandoned the limits and themes that make magic OCCs what they are.

If they are going to be taking heavy fire they should. If they aren't going to take heavy fire then no, they shouldn't. What they should wear is gear appropriate to the situation they will find them selves in.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:35 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Don't waste your time gloating over a wounded enemy. Pull the damn trigger.
My party is a mystic, TW, paratrooper, gunslinger and GB pilot.

In civilization, the two magic users are way buff because they have the same capability there as they do outside. In the wilds, it's the rest of the group that picks up the slack.

The mystic doesn't even wear armor, relying on 6th sense to warn them when it's time to put up armor if ithan. The TW still wears a non-environmental MDC flight suit. They keep mobility in mind, using invisibility and the TW's wing glider to stay safe from attack. The rest of the guys rely on armor and damage, but also the magic if their comrades to control the battlefield.

They have good teamwork. The TW is easy to identify, sure, but the mystic looks like an impossibly attractive woman in stylish clothes. The others are clearly hardened fighters. They cultivated their look over time, the lot of them. It took many sessions before they shaped themselves onto what they are now.

Sometimes it just takes time and experience. Though even the gunslinger ditched his West armor for a heavy stormtrooper get up from Triax. That was a result of losing an arm in a fight, though, not the player sniffing out the best numbers.

So, Spirit I get your point. Though some folks just want to dakka-dakka no matter what their specialty is.

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:20 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
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Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Not to speak for Damien, but I'm guessing that his point was that even in settings where it's not all that lethal to go around with no armor at all, he still has his mages wear armor, because it still provides his characters an additional chance to live longer.

In Rifts, you pretty much HAVE to have MDC protection of some kind, unless the GM is specifically running an SDC adventure/campaign.
In HU, armor is still really important, because you might end up on the wrong end of a machine gun.
In PFRPG, though, it's pretty much the single most reasonable place to go unarmored (outside of BtS, where it might be illegal) because you won't be facing down guns, and arrow and sword damage is unrealistically light.
But even in that setting, Damien's mages wear armor, because it can save their life.
Which indicates that in a place as deadly as Rifts is (under most GMs), his mages probably wear all the armor they can safely handle.

That's just my guess, though. He'd have to elaborate himself for his message to be perfectly clear.

This was pretty much my point.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:26 am
  

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Priest

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
SpiritInterface wrote:
I would love to see a squad assualt a building in full Bomb Disposal Armor, it would be keystone cops time.


I said, "If there's reasonable expectation of being attacked by masses of explosive-wielding enemies, and you have the gear, why wouldn't you give everybody a bomb suit and a LMG or grenade launcher?"

Is there some part of "being attacked by" that makes you think that it's time to gear up to assault somebody?
I was talking defense, in a specific situation.
Which seems to be something that you're missing in this conversation. I'm not saying that all mages, all the time, need to be wearing their heaviest armor.
Nobody is.

What we're saying is that when you're in a combat-heavy situation then it only makes sense to gear up for heavy combat.

Quote:
Cooks and Mechanics don't wear as heavy of armor as combat troops is that it would interfere with them doing their job.


That, and because they're not expecting imminent combat.

But if there's armor and weapons to spare, there's no cars to repair or meals to cook at the moment, and the base is about to be potentially over-run by a swarm of enemy soldiers... do you see any reason why they wouldn't gear up everybody on base as fully as possible?

Quote:
What you are basically saying is that the rules aren't really the rules, they are more of a guideline. Ok, I am cool with that.


Well, no, I'm not saying that.
I have no idea how you could think that I'm saying that.

Quote:
As someone who plays Magic OCCs alot I know how useful the are in combat.


Then you know that dishing out direct damage with is NOT their specialty, except in a limited number of situations.

Quote:
That being said not one of my mages could be mistaken as a combat trooper in heavy armor and carrying a combat rifle.


Spiffy. You must either run and hide a lot, have a powerful mage, or you must encounter light enough combat that you don't need the heavy gear.
Or you die a lot in order to stay with the character concept of somebody who doesn't use a lot of armor.

Quote:
You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying! If you are playing a mage, play a mage not a combat trooper with a gun. If you are playing a powered hero, play a powered hero not a hardware with a gun.


You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying: people aren't 2D cutouts that stick to specific stereotypes.
There is nothing about being a mage that excludes carrying a big gun.
There is nothing about super powers that excludes carrying a big gun.
People aren't one-trick ponies that only ever use their one trick to deal with every situation. They tend to carry the tools that they need (or that they think that they'll need), regardless of occupation.
Put an auto-mechanic, a butler, or a wall street tycoon in an apocalyptic situation where there's a regular chance that they'll be attacked by demons, they are NOT going to stick to some kind of crazy script where the auto-mechanic spurns guns in favor of his sturdy wrench, where the butler uses a silver tea set to bludgeon his enemies, and where the guy from wall street... I dunno... tries to tie his enemies up with ticker-tape.
Given the opportunity, they're going to use the best weapons and armor available to them.

How many people do YOU know personally who are into guns?
Does it really matter what their day job is?
Would it be any different if those people were mages, or if they had super powers? Would they lose their interest in guns?

Quote:
I never said that Magic OCCs, PCCs shouldn't wear armor, just that they shouldn't wear heavy or assault armor.


Yes, I know.
And I said that depends on whether or not they have reason to expect a heavy assault.
If you can think of any sane reason to go into heavy combat wearing light armor, by all means let me know what it is.
I just don't consider "I'm a mage" to be a sane reason, unless you're such a powerful mage that you actually, legitimately gain NO advantage from wearing armor.
Basically, I'm coming from a point of view of pragmatism. People as a rule, who are in heavy combat, do what works, or they die.

Quote:
My complaint was that many GMs and Players have basically abandoned the limits and themes that make magic OCCs what they are.


Feel free to elaborate on that, because I don't consider "lightweight weapons and armor are generally preferred because they are less cumbersome" to be a limit or theme that "makes magic OCCs what they are."

Other than the ability to wield magic, and perhaps a general scholarly attitude, I seriously don't know what kind of limits or themes you're talking about.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:32 am
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
SpiritInterface wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Actually I am going to have to disagree here. Since I was in the Army, I was a support MOS, and I had the exact same body armor as the infantry guys.....and a grenade launcher....my buddy (also a support MOS) carried a light machine gun. So yeah.....


When I was in the mechanics, truck drivers, pilots wore lighter 'chicken plate' than I was issued as an MP, and we had everything up to a 105mm mortars.


Could be a difference of when you each were in.
OR it could be a difference of how close you were to a combat zone.
Or both.

But going with your example, who is more likely to expect to get shot at while they're performing their duties?
a) A mechanic
b) An MP

And who is more likely to expect to get shot at while adventuring?
a) Only certain party members
b) Pretty much every member of the party

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"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:38 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:48 pm
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eliakon wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
I would love to see a squad assualt a building in full Bomb Disposal Armor, it would be keystone cops time.

Cooks and Mechanics don't wear as heavy of armor as combat troops is that it would interfere with them doing their job.

Um yes....Yes they do. When I was not actually inside a shelter I was wearing the EXACT same armor that the combat troops were wearing. The exact same armor. Plus I carried my M-4 assault rifle, with its M-203 grenade launcher as my side arm. And ammo, for both. You only got hand grenades if you went off base though. Plus a gas mask, and night vision. Full load out of combat gear. Since my buddy was a machine gunner I carried spare ammo for him too. Note that we were maintenance. So YES Mechanics wear as heavy of armor as combat troops, at least in real life.


I guess we were in at different times, 80-86 for me and the support troops wore lighter armor when they wore any at all.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:51 am
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
To clarify,
When I play a mage, I usually stick with light armor, even after I upgrade from starting gear.
Why?
Because the whole "reduce speed and mobility by 1/2" thing kind of crimps my style a lot of the time, and because I prefer my mages to think my way out of combat instead of blasting my way out, as a rule.
But that's just MY style, not everybody's, and I'll abandon that style when things take a bad turn.
If there's some heavy combat coming up, like Mechanoids or something, and I know that I'm not going to need my stealth or mobility as much as I'm going to need as much MDC as I can wear, then I'll slap on Heavy Deadboy if I've got it.
Hell, I'd slap on a SAMAS if it came down to the wire.... although I'd discard (i.e., sell or return) the SAM after combat, if I survived.

It sounds like what you're describing is a variation on the age-old issue of "people afraid to come out of their MDC armor."
In this case, it sounds like people are afraid to wear less than full combat gear.
IF they're actually facing regular, heavy combat, that's a perfectly reasonable fear in my book.
IF they're only facing light and/or rare combat, then their fear is coming from someplace else. Maybe they've been ambushed and killed once too often, or maybe they're gearing up for the level of combat that they want instead of the level that they're getting.
Without knowing the group and their adventures, I can't really say.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:11 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 9303
SpiritInterface wrote:
eliakon wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
I would love to see a squad assualt a building in full Bomb Disposal Armor, it would be keystone cops time.

Cooks and Mechanics don't wear as heavy of armor as combat troops is that it would interfere with them doing their job.

Um yes....Yes they do. When I was not actually inside a shelter I was wearing the EXACT same armor that the combat troops were wearing. The exact same armor. Plus I carried my M-4 assault rifle, with its M-203 grenade launcher as my side arm. And ammo, for both. You only got hand grenades if you went off base though. Plus a gas mask, and night vision. Full load out of combat gear. Since my buddy was a machine gunner I carried spare ammo for him too. Note that we were maintenance. So YES Mechanics wear as heavy of armor as combat troops, at least in real life.


I guess we were in at different times, 80-86 for me and the support troops wore lighter armor when they wore any at all.


That would likely be the military learning from previous mistakes and recognizing whether you're a cook or special forces you're still in the same general danger and every trooper should get the same kind of protection instead of going 'well we don't think you'll be in danger but if you do get in danger we aren't as concerned with you dying so here's the bargain bin armor'. I don't think anyone in the military if they're in a dangerous area should be denied the best armor possible, even cooks are soldiers in the end after all.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:18 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
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eliakon wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying! I you are playing a mage, play a mage not a combat trooper with a gun. If you are playing a powered hero, play a powered hero not a hardware with a gun.


I think your projecting your idealization of what you prefer a mage to be as some how what a mage should be. There is a huge difference.


I'd have to agree, you're still playing a mage even if he wears armor and carries a gun (heck the Warlock Marines explicitly have advanced techno-wizard power armor that isn't as troubling for mages to wear and some of them are also mages). Unlike pure fantasy mages like we see in AD&D settings like Rifts are far more lethal (with just a few levels the average mage with decent HP rolls could survive an ambush and manage to put up a magical shield, and they often can have spells of protection that last for days whereas you'd be dead as a mage in Rifts in the same situation without being able to respond at all), they're also a mix of magic and advanced technology and how someone who works magic would behave must fit the setting and their general intelligence and background not how a mage would react in an unrelated setting.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:16 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 18
Location: OKC, OK
Mechghost wrote:
I miss the "old days" where not having all the firepower a character could carry was the norm and not everyone was a "combat specialist" first and a "whatever class" second

For some games, like Rifts, such "old days" never existed.

SpiritInterface wrote:
But when Heroes groups or ad hoc adventure groups start looking like heavy assault teams and Mages and Psi characters are acting as shooters instead.
There are two basic possibilities here:
1. The system has made those options more attractive than the powers of the characters. That's a systemic issue.
2. The GM has made those options more attractive than the powers of the characters. That's a table issue.

Quote:
that the players need to be reminded what OCC, RCC/PCC they are playing.
No, they don't. Again, there are two basic possibilities here:
1. The players are enjoying playing what they are playing, even if that means they are enjoying playing heavily armed and armored caster/psis/supers. If the GM doesn't like it, he needs to talk with the group or find a group more in line with his thinking.
2. The players dont' necessarily enjoy it but feel it is necessary to handle the game that the GM is throwing at them. In which case, the GM needs to either talk to the group or find a group more in line with his thinking.

Quote:
It just seems that characters are losing their uniqueness.
No, they aren't. Not terribly unique characters have, are, and will always be the norm. We just tend to forget them.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:40 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
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Location: Memphis, TN
danzig138 wrote:
Mechghost wrote:
I miss the "old days" where not having all the firepower a character could carry was the norm and not everyone was a "combat specialist" first and a "whatever class" second

For some games, like Rifts, such "old days" never existed.


For some groups, such "old days" might never have existed.

For other groups, that's still how the game is played.

--flatline

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I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:19 pm
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
IIRC, back when it was just the RMB, the best light/med armor a Mage could have was Crusader, with 55 MDC.
A Wilk's 320 pistol could empty a clip for 1d6x10 MD, potentially killing the Mage with one attack (albeit one attack that uses multiple attack slots).

That was decent incentive to wear heavier armor if you could.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:46 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:20 pm
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Comment: Don't waste your time gloating over a wounded enemy. Pull the damn trigger.
You could lower the overall lethality by making it 10d6 instead. :p

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


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