Sixth Sense vs. Non-lethal gas attacks

[MADMANMIKE]

So I need the party to take an extended nap in order to upgrade their ship without their knowing.. Cryo-sleep isn't a problem, it's getting them to that point. The plan is for them to dock with a station (already happened at the end of the last session) and enter the docking arm unaware that anything is amiss. Because they've been mistaken by the station owners as the party responsible for attacking the gateway, the station waits for them to get into the arm, then locks it down and fills it with knock-out gas.

Cinematically I have no problem pulling this off, but a couple of the characters have a sixth sense.. In the description it says that it works for life and death danger... technically there's no harm in being put to sleep, but then once they're asleep they could easily be killed..

So what say you all, does the sixth sense go off? There's a couple of characters with very good saving throws and one who can hold his breath a really long time (I'll just make it skin contact to supersede that), so even without the sixth sense there's a chance they could muck up the plan by hacking the airlocks to escape..

[Dog_O_War]

I'd call it sufficient danger, but maybe it's muddied?

What I mean is that there is the chance that they might not wake up (well, from a non-meta point of view), which should set their senses off - but I would describe it differently.

Or better yet, there is a meta way around sixth sense.

Sixth Sense goes off about one minute before the danger actually happens.

Having a 5 minute decompression/decontamination "scene" happen would at first appear as routine, but then about four minutes in, that's when their senses go off. Such a decontamination chamber may be sufficiently "locked down" if they attempt to do anything extreme and the provision of sixth sense is that it only goes off when one particular future event happens; if they change the future because they're reacting to a character's Sixth-Sense notion, time doesn't rewind for them to get more time, so in essence, once they begin to react, you can hit them with the gas (or after a minute, whichever comes first) and you can be assured you didn't railroad them to sleep, etc.

All you'd be doing is setting a very elaborate "trap".

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'd say no Sixth Sense. The knock-out gas, itself, is non-lethal. Keep in mind that Sixth Sense is a minor psionic power, and not a Super Psionic power (so it's useful, but not super powerful either).

Yes, the knock-out gas can make it easy for someone to kill you. So let's look at that. If you walk out in the cold rain you increase your chances of getting sick. That increases your chances for pneumonia. Without proper treatment, pneumonia can cause death. Does Sixth Sense go off every time it rains? Of course not, that's silly. But the power isn't set up to warn that there may be eventual danger somewhere down the line if certain variable factors happen hours, days, weeks, or more down the line.

So the real question I'd ask myself: Will they die (if they don't take action to stop it) within 1 minute? If yes, then Sixth Sense. If no, then no Sixth Sense.

In this scenario, if the knock-out gas is being used, and as soon as the characters are out the hatches will open and armed guards will rush in to shoot them dead ... yes, that's lethal danger (with Knockout gas merely being the first tool). As a G.M., I'd likely be nice enough to say if they'll likely die before they wake up (even if it would take over a minute) that it'll still go off. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here. They won't even die while under the influence of the knock-out gas. All it'll do is set them up for cryo-freezing, which is a separate tool. So is the Knock-Out gas going to kill them? No. Are they going to die while under the influence of the knock-out gas? No. Will putting them into Cryo-freeze kill them? No. So when will this kill them? Um ... maybe, somewhere done the line, possibly.

Do chain of events make something imminent? Well, let's say you let some kid who tried to pick your pocket go and run off. However, years down the line he'll turn into a much bigger threat and try to kill you. Does your Sixth Sense go off when you try to let him go? I mean, the chain of events has started! Of course, I'm being silly again. I don't expect people to play like that, nor do I think that was ever the intent.

Let's say you're a criminal and a police officer is sneaking up to handcuff you. Does your Sixth Sense go off? The police officer has a gun and could easily kill you. And even if he doesn't, somewhere down the line you might die in jail. Except what's happening now isn't life threatening, and the danger sure isn't imminent.

Almost any situation can be turned into some possible danger further down the line if you apply some effort. However, Sixth Sense isn't omniscience. It's a warning of life threatening danger, within the next 60 seconds (if already set in motion, less time if it's not yet set in motion). I personally find it best not to try and expand it beyond that. That's at least my opinion on the matter. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Devjannz]

I do not think it would go off because as stated the Gas itself is not dangerous. Sixth Sense alerts the character to actual danger not potential danger.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

vs non lethal gas...

Sorry Mike, but all that is coming to me is.."My spider sense is tingling...Look out, someone is about to fart!"

[Nekira Sudacne]

I would argue it would, simply because it reduces the character to a helpless state from which they may never recover. Yes, YOU, the GM, know they only plan on upgrading their ship without them knowing.

But for all they know, someone is going to shoot them the moment they go unconcious.

[Prysus]

[justify][quote="Nekira Sudacne"]Yes, YOU, the GM, know they only plan on upgrading their ship without them knowing.

But for all they know, someone is going to shoot them the moment they go unconcious.[/quote]
Greetings and Salutations. See, I guess that's part of my issue. Sixth Sense requires the G.M. to know the difference, not the players.

As far as the players know a mosquito might be carrying malaria, but that doesn't mean their Sixth Sense should go off every time a mosquito is near. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, a cop walking up behind them could pull out a gun and blow their brains out. That doesn't mean Sixth Sense should go off every time a police officer is within range. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, a drunk driver might veer off the road and hit them. That doesn't mean every time a drunk driver is within range their Sixth Sense goes off even if the drunk is driving straight and won't cause any accidents the whole night. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, while knocked out someone can kill them. Following the pattern means that Sixth Sense shouldn't go off I'd they're not going to die. Why? The G.M. knows the difference.

Sixth Sense isn't based around player knowledge, but G.M. knowledge. It goes off when something IS life-threatening. If the players know, then it's not "unexpected." However, it doesn't mean it warns the players EVERYTIME the G.M. plans something unexpected, only if it IS life-threatening.

For note, everyone may play however they think best and whatever's the most fun for their games. I just find the logic flawed. That's of course just my opinion. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


Edit: Hmm... for some reason I can't get the code to work. Neither quote nor alignment are working (from what I can see). Can't figure out why.[/justify]

[Devjannz]

For me, I would do it this way:

If the gas attack is meant to immobilize them so that someone can then attack them then I would have it set off the Sixth Sense.

If it is meant to just knock them out with no other attack then I would not have it set off Sixth Sense.


Edit: I really like Prysus's examples.

[Dog_O_War]

Prysus, your justify screws up quotes I believe.

Yes, YOU, the GM, know they only plan on upgrading their ship without them knowing.

But for all they know, someone is going to shoot them the moment they go unconcious.

Greetings and Salutations. See, I guess that's part of my issue. Sixth Sense requires the G.M. to know the difference, not the players.

As far as the players know a mosquito might be carrying malaria, but that doesn't mean their Sixth Sense should go off every time a mosquito is near. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, a cop walking up behind them could pull out a gun and blow their brains out. That doesn't mean Sixth Sense should go off every time a police officer is within range. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, a drunk driver might veer off the road and hit them. That doesn't mean every time a drunk driver is within range their Sixth Sense goes off even if the drunk is driving straight and won't cause any accidents the whole night. The G.M. knows the difference.

As far as the players know, while knocked out someone can kill them. Following the pattern means that Sixth Sense shouldn't go off I'd they're not going to die. Why? The G.M. knows the difference.

This kind of scenario though, the players may end up trying something drastic once the gas starts coming in, including anything and everything from exploding the chamber, to suicide (long-shot). It's an A-typical scenario because there is actual potential for players to harm themselves through inadvertent actions; based on this knowledge, I'd say that their sixth sense goes off (albeit, "muddied"), because the players themselves are an unknown element with a heightened potential for self-harm due to the environment.

[Grand Paladin]

I'd agree that Prysus has it pretty much nailed down. If the intent was to kill the PC's, and the first element is the knockout gas, Sixth Sense would go off, as it's an imminent life threatening event that will be set in motion.

A deeper question is if someone is already affected by knockout gas/drugs, will Sixth Sense go off and override the chemical agent(s) that are rendering the PC's unconscious if an imminent life threatening event is going to happen?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Dog_O_War, I don't think it was the justify. The first time I tried I thought possibly the same (even though I do it all the time(, so I deleted it. Still the problem with the quote. So I went back again, and added justify via the editor button (instead of typing by hand like normal), and even the justify the system put in didn't work. That's when I gave up trying. At this point I suspect more a conflict because I'm using my phone or something like that, but just another theory. Or maybe I missed something and didn't realize it. Anyways...


I can see what you're saying about the player characters making it more dangerous through potential action. Though, in my opinion, the Sixth Sense would go off when the players arm the explosives, because that's the source of danger. Though I can accept that answer better.

In the end, I suspect enough information has been provided for the OP to make his decision either way. Farewell and sage journeys for now.

[MADMANMIKE]

Thanks for all the feed back guys, it's appreciated. The game has been postponed yet another week for family issues, but that's alright because it's giving me time to explore some new options.

It's not railroading to give the players better equipment. It would be railroading to do something that forces them to have to pay for it, like inserting explosive chips in them until they payed the bill.. But that's not the plan.

I'll spend the extra time I have with this additional week designing the interior of the station they're on in order give them a nice sci-fi dungeon crawl. I haven't decided yet whether or not to use the knock-out gas after all, but if I don't they're going to be doing some "while he's upgrading the ship I'll do 'X'".. Something I've never been fond of as a game element. It's kind of built in with a game setting that has mere factors of light speed in stead of Light Years Per Hour though, and can be an adventure hook in and of itself.. just not when one of the characters has to devote the entire time to doing the work on the ship.

The plot so far is in this thread, as will be the results of the next session some time in the next couple of weeks.

[The Dark Elf]

I would say yes if the action of exposing them to the gas was a deliberate attempt to incapacitate them in order to end their life in the next minute.

Otherwise it's not imminently life threatening and therefore it's a no.

In ur example, it's a no from me.

[MADMANMIKE]

My call as GM is that Sixth Sense triggers in response to any potential threat and a gas that would incapacitate the PC's counts as a threat.

The actual text of the description (abridged):

This power gives the psychic a precognitive flash of imminent danger to himself or sombody near him... The sixth sense is triggered automatically, without the consent of the psychic, whenever his life is in great peril, or the life of somebody he greatly cares about (friend, loved one, etc.) The sixth sense is only triggered by an unexpected, life threatening event which is already set into motion and will happen any second.

By the text, it's not just a potential threat, it's 'great peril to life' and 'life threatening events'. Non-lethal gas not being followed by lethal attacks doesn't qualify.

I should have just looked it up instead of relying on my memory of the power.. I wonder how many other issues I've had over the years have been a result of faulty memory..

[Devjannz]

I do not think it would go off because as stated the Gas itself is not dangerous. Sixth Sense alerts the character to actual danger not potential danger.

No offense, but that's your call as GM. My call as GM is that Sixth Sense triggers in response to any potential threat and a gas that would incapacitate the PC's counts as a threat.

As you said that is your call but as MADMANMIKE says according to the write-up, it only works in situations when there is an actual life-threatening event going to take place, not just an attack of any kind.

Someone is going to throw a regular water balloon at a normal person with Sixth Sense, it would not go off because it is not a life-threatening situation, now, throwing that same water balloon at an alien from Signs that had Sixth Sense it would go off because to him it is lethal. (Yeah I know the aliens kind of sucked in that but I thought it made a good example..lol).

[MADMANMIKE]

No, that's not up to me, it's an actual quote from the text. Plain English is plain English. Fortunately my players are all mature adults, so I don't foresee any problems.

[Alrik Vas]

A lot has been said so far, and if any of it is the following:

"Sixth Sense wouldn't warn them of the gas. Though it would wake them up if someone where going to harm them while they were unconscious."

then you can ignore me.

[MADMANMIKE]

No, that's not up to me, it's an actual quote from the text. Plain English is plain English.

Riddle me this: If it's written in 'plain english', then why did you bother to post this thread in the first place? Hmmmm?

Obviously you, yourself, were not clear in your mind about whether or not this would work, or else you wouldn't have gone to others seeking validation. But you did ask for people's feedback, and now that someone (me) has posted a viewpoint that doesn't validate your conclusion, you're trying to say that reading the text in the most literal way possible trumps any sort of reasoning to the contrary.

Here's a tip: if you don't want other people's viewpoints, don't ask for them. But if you do ask for them, don't be hurt and surprised if not everyone agrees with you.

I should have just looked it up instead of relying on my memory of the power.. I wonder how many other issues I've had over the years have been a result of faulty memory..

Did you miss that where I posted it above? It completely negates what you're saying here...

As I said earlier: I think you are trying to A) Railroad your players, and B) Justify it using semantics.

There's no reason to reiterate your opinion here, you're welcome to it.

Let's talk about 'plain English' shall we? In a recent news article, originally from the Washington Post, a child was 26 cents short in their pre-payed lunch account, so the cashier reprimanded them and threw their lunch in the trash in front of all their peers. Note that the parents were not notified that the account had been deliquent because there was no system in place to do so. Yes, the 'plain English' of the school's policy calls for not handing out free lunches to students who don't pay. But the spirit of the rule is not to shame students nor is it to punnish them for a clerical oversight. But, according to your argument, Mike, that cashier was perfectly justified in their actions because it's spelled out in 'plain English'.

In case you haven't noticed, there a least a couple of rules in Palladium, possibly three, that don't always make crystal clear sense and/or are subject to interpretation by individual GM's.

This is entirely out of line.

Fortunately my players are all mature adults, so I don't foresee any problems.

LMAO! First time GMing, eh?

You know this is absurd.. I've been GMing Palladium games for 25 years.. and the statement still stands, all of my players are mature adults. I work with children, and I raise them at home, I don't game with them.

[MADMANMIKE]

A lot has been said so far, and if any of it is the following:

"Sixth Sense wouldn't warn them of the gas. Though it would wake them up if someone where going to harm them while they were unconscious."

then you can ignore me.

Yeah, that's the gist that the majority (and my going back and actually reading the power's description) have concluded. Thanks for your input though.

[Damian Magecraft]

The actual text of the description (abridged):

This power gives the psychic a precognitive flash of imminent danger to himself or sombody near him... The sixth sense is triggered automatically, without the consent of the psychic, whenever his life is in great peril, or the life of somebody he greatly cares about (friend, loved one, etc.) The sixth sense is only triggered by an unexpected, life threatening event which is already set into motion and will happen any second.

By the text, it's not just a potential threat, it's 'great peril to life' and 'life threatening events'. Non-lethal gas not being followed by lethal attacks doesn't qualify.

That's up to you. Personally, I think you're using semantics to justify an illegal action. While the letter of the law is important, the spirit of the law is equally important. Sixth Sense goes off when something is threatening the PCs. If you're going to get into intent then you're starting down a slippery slope.

If you really want to upgrade the ship so badly, why not simply arrange for it to be stolen the next time the PCs are in port? That way you could have whomever make the upgrades and completely avoid a potential argument with the players. Then, a few days later, they get a tip that their ship was found and is being returned to them. When they get on board, they realize that a mysterious benefactor has upgraded the ship.

By your interpretation then no psychic with 6th sense will ever have any isp after 60 to 120 minutes from waking up. Since the power activates automatically and costs 2 isp. (In the course of an average day we humans expose ourselves to potential eminent death close to 1000 times)... while taking a shower one could slip and fall thereby breaking their neck or fracturing their skull resulting in death by blood loss. (I could go on but I believe my point is made).

[Damian Magecraft]

It's your game, Mike. If you want to take away your players free will on the grounds that you're "doing them a favor" that's up to you.

Karl Marx (ironically) said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Funny... several other would be tin pot dictators also quoted Karl... when they were justifying their overthrow of the previous regime...

[Damian Magecraft]

By your interpretation then no psychic with 6th sense will ever have any isp after 60 to 120 minutes from waking up. Since the power activates automatically and costs 2 isp. (In the course of an average day we humans expose ourselves to potential eminent death close to 1000 times)... while taking a shower one could slip and fall thereby breaking their neck or fracturing their skull resulting in death by blood loss. (I could go on but I believe my point is made).

Nice False Analogy you have there. The gas attack is not a random occurance; it's a deliberate attempt by someone else to subdue the party.

Any other horses you'd like to trot out, Chief?

Not a false analogy taking your stance to its logical conclusion.
If it applies to one instance of potential harm it applies to all instances of potential harm.

also if you want to debate me...
leave the snark and veiled insults behind.
It grants no support to your stance.

[Damian Magecraft]

Not a false analogy taking your stance to its logical conclusion.
If it applies to one instance of potential harm it applies to all instances of potential harm.

At some point, there must be a common sense interpretation of rules. Like Mike, you seem to want to intrerpet everything in the most literal way possible. Saying that a deliberate attack = a random occurance is a False Analogy because they are not the same at all; one is deliberate, one is random. Are you familiar with Plato's argument of Mutual Excusivity? It applies in this case. A cannot = B. If your intent is to debate that premise, let me know so I can get the popcorn started.

Deliberate vs random? now who is arguing semantics. The power does not differentiate between random lethal events and deliberate lethal events it states it warns of lethal events.
so no mutual exclusivity does not apply here.

[Damian Magecraft]

Not a false analogy taking your stance to its logical conclusion.
If it applies to one instance of potential harm it applies to all instances of potential harm.

At some point, there must be a common sense interpretation of rules. Like Mike, you seem to want to intrerpet everything in the most literal way possible.

I want to address this separately...

1: common sense is so rare it is misnamed.
2: logic states that when given limited data you extrapolate from that data. Not from additional unfounded and ultimately unprovable assumptions.

[Damian Magecraft]

Deliberate vs random? now who is arguing semantics.

I'd remind you that this is the argument you brought up.

The power does not differentiate between random lethal events and deliberate lethal events it states it warns of lethal events.
so no mutual exclusivity does not apply here.

No: My rebutal of mutual exclusivity is a rebutal to your claim that a random event = a deliberate event. Please do not muddy the issue by trying to redistribute my argument by trying to apply it to something other than what it was intended for.

You argued that Sixth Sense must go off in response to any potential threat and then stated that a random (and hence not deliberate) occurance such as slipping in the shower would cause it to trigger. I stated that, at some point, there must be a common sense adjustment of how the ability works. In Mike's orginal argument, he said that the attack was not really an attack because the intent was to subdue rather than to kill. It's still a premeditated attack, though. Saying that there's no intent to kill doesn't make it less of a premeditated attack. Trying to argue that it wouldn't because there's no lethal intent seems like gaming the system by exploiting a semantics loop-hole.

What I'm arguing is: whether the attack is intended to be lethal or not is irrelevent because it's premeditated and in common sense terms potentially lethal. Ask yourself: how exactly does Sixth Sense know that the gas attack is not lethal? There is no way that it can and therefore, I'm asserting that it would be triggered.

I want to address this separately...

1: common sense is so rare it is misnamed.

Not really. While Voltaire did say, "Common sense is not so common", there is in most societies a common understanding or frame of reference by which most people go by. In the United States for instance there is a common outrage every time a media story comes out about someone applying things in the most literal means possible without regards for the implications and/or results of their actions (ie. the news story about the 26 cents lunch getting thown away). Another example would be the "Zero-Tolerance" policy in US Public schools in which teenage girls are hauled off to jail for bring a Midol to school during their period and being charged with "drug possession". Clearly in such cases the letter of the law is being adhered to, but the spirit of the law is being ignored. That most people across the US react to such stories with disgusted disbelief is arguable evidence of 'common sense'.

2: logic states that when given limited data you extrapolate from that data. Not from additional unfounded and ultimately unprovable assumptions.

The problem here, Damian, is that none of this can be "proven" because none of it actually exists. There is no such thing as Sixth Sense; it's a made-up term from a ficticional universe. Further, as I'm sure you're well aware, Palladium has a history of writing ambigious, disproportionate, occasionally absurd, and sometimes contradictory descriptions of spells, abilities, powers, and their applications. For example, see my thread about the Warlock Chasm spell. If you're looking for incontravertable 'proof' of how Sixth Sense operates, you're out of luck. All we have is interpretation.

As I said to Mike, if you choose to interpret Sixth Sense as being triggered by intent, interpreting the ability literally as it is written, more power to you; more power to Mike. I personally think both of you are wrong and I've supported my arguments, but even so there is no way that I can absolutely prove that Sixth Sense works the way I say it does because it's all subjective.

You brought premeditation and an assumption of potential harm into the debate not me. You have ascribed an assumption the data does not support. But since you have; I chose to extrapolate it to its logical conclusion in order to point out the absurdity of the assumption. If the power activates because of a possibility of lethal harm in this one instance then it stands to reason that it will activate in all instances of possible lethal harm.
your stance is untenable.
also...
where did I ever say I agreed with Mikes assessment of how the power worked?
That is two instances you making erroneous assumptions.
I have not stated my opinion on how the power functions only on how you are interpreting the data.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Typing on my phone so I'll try to keep this quick. I'll explain my stance first, then I'll ask a few questions about your stance Nightfactory. This is not intended as an attack (or even to convince anyone at this point), but seeking clarification on other views.


Me: So I think either the character (or someone the character cares about if within range) is about to die. I view it as a very specialized Clairvoyance. You (or another) actually dying in the near future triggers the power. It also already needs to be set in motion. So if you're walking with an NPC and accidentally say something that reveals you killed his brother in the past, causing the NPC to try and kill you right then ans there, that's when you get your warning (not a full minute, because less than a minute ago you hadn't revealed that and set things in motion).

Making it only life threatening can actually provide the player with insights into a situation (if "common sense" is used). For example, if they're attacked (by knock-out gas or other) and Sixth Sense doesn't go off, they should ask themselves ...

1: Do I have I.S.P.? If yes, then move on.
2: Do I know I was walking into a hostile environment where attack was nearly guaranteed (ergo, not "unexpected")? If not, then move on. Note: As a G.M. I'm most likely to cut slack here, possibly warning them even if they should've known better. Situational, of course.
3: This attack must be non-lethal.

So by Sixth Sense NOT going off, it actually let's player and characters know that this attack is not designed to kill them. This can be valuable information (if you're smart enough to realize it). Note: Every time I get a new player who selects Sixth Sense, I warn them that the danger needs to be lethal AND unexpected (as well as within range), because I feel it is an often misused power and I don't want someone coming in with misconceptions. I leave figuring out how useful it is to the player.


Nightfactory: Where do you think the book states its spirit of any premeditated attack (whether it be an sniper, a spitball, a dagger to the back, or a Wet Willy)? At least three times it suggests it needs to be a matter if life and death, do you think these are mistakes? Also, does that mean that accidental danger does NOT trigger Sixth Sense (despite it mentioning a "flash flood" which tends to have no premeditation whatsoever)? Or does it go off whether premeditated or not? If so, what if someone accidentally bumps your shoulder? If not a shoulder bump, them at what point do you draw the line and do you clarify this with your players?

Also, how do you think it works? You asked how Sixth Sense can tell the difference, to which I addressed my view above. To me, your version sounds like it'll end up for inconsistent. However, I'd like to believe since you asked an explanation of others you have a good one yourself and I'm just missing it. I like seeing new views, as it gives me new possibilities to consider.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Alrik Vas]

The great thing about Sixth Sense, is that i abuse the crap out of it as the GM. I pretty much ignore how it works and use it as a device for my own ends. Works much better that way.

[Prysus]

I would never presume you were attacking, Prysus. You've a very fair and even-tempered person.

Greetings and Salutations. Cool, good to hear. Even though we disagree on this matter, I appreciate your discourse on the matter. Note: I cut out parts in my responses, but only for brevity and because I feel they're overall addressed in other responses (if you feel I left out something important, feel free to let me know).

Ok, so the very first line in the description says this: "The Sixth Sense is a power that gives the psychic a precognitive flash of imminent danger to himself or somebody near him (within 90 feet/27.4m)." I think that it is significant that this is how the first line in the description is written because it essentially gives a summary of how the power operates. The second and third lines say, "The character will not know what the danger is or where it will come from, nor who it will be directed at within a group. All he knows is something life threatening will happen within the next 60 seconds (4 melees)!" Then it goes on in the next three lines to mention that the event must be "life threating" as you stated above.

Hmm ... I see what you're saying. I agree that the first line is a summary, and important. For me, a summary gives you the idea, but leaves out a lot of details. The reason it goes on is to fill in those details. Line 2 tells us what it can't do. Then 3, 4, and 5 all mention it must be life threatening. For me, the fact three different sentences discuss it (and really specified four times in those three sentences) is too deliberate to ignore.

For you, the first line gives you the spirit/heart of the power, and I can understand that. I may not agree with what you see as the spirit, but I can respect it and appreciate you clarifying your stance for me.

But, you say, you're not actually in danger because the gas is non-lethal. Maybe so, technically, but from a practical, pragmatic standpoint, it sure seems like an attack because it is being done out of the blue and it's purpose is to incapacitate everyone. To me, that is a very real and clear danger to the party, regardless of whether it 100% complies with the written definition of the ability.

I agree that non-lethal gas is an attack. I think we also agree that it's non-lethal. Where we disagree is that you feel Sixth Sense activates on an attack, while I believe it needs to be a (potentially) lethal attack. (I'll continue to elaborate as I go on, for note.)

the party will probably survive it, but there's also a chance that it could kill them. In a situation where it could be life-threatening, I choose to opt on the side of caution and give players with Sixth Sense the chance to potentially do something to save their ass.

I agree, more or less. I'll address this more (lower down), where you give a few scenarios.

The problem I have with what you described above (ie. how you tell players it's only triggered by specifically lethal events) is that, to me, it takes some of the mystery and excitement out of role-playing.

This actually made me laugh a little (in the irony sort of way, and not in a bad way). On these boards I've often seen a G.M. complain about how they can never surprise their players because Sixth Sense always warns them of any attack, etc. Having Sixth Sense warn of any attack (especially when the G.M. gives a full minute warning every time) can ruin just as much mystery. At the very least, I don't find one way being more so than the other, but to each their own. I'm not saying your way is wrong, just that it's the opposite of what I tend to see. Usually the complaint about the way I rule Sixth Sense is that it's gimping the power, where you seem to be going almost the other way. Again, not criticizing, but I find the differences interesting. Always like seeing a new perspective.

Personally, I don't think knowing whether someone intends to kill me or not as the only aspect of a mystery or excitement. That still doesn't tell me why they're attacking, or how/if I can beat them. If I sense something it still doesn't tell me where/who it's coming from, and if I don't sense anything I could very well get caught with my pants down. The role-playing will come from figuring out the situation and/or how I respond to it, but that's my personal take on the matter.

Also, it locks the GM into a specific course of action ie. not killing the players.

Fairly accurate, but not entirely true either. As a G.M., I tend to know my NPC. So if a group of NPC are going to try and capture the players, then they're going to try and capture the players. They have a plan, and I'm only locked in as far as the NPC having motives. I'm not going to randomly flip to kill mode two seconds before the attack or one second after they start for no good reason, that's not fair to the NPC (or players). With that said, that doesn't meant things can't change after the fact. I'll go into the more later (with the examples again).

If I were one of your players, had Sixth Sense, it didn't trigger, and then suddenly someone leapt onto my back, I would know that they were not trying to kill me because my Sixth Sense didn't go off. As a result, I wouldn't take the attack as seriously as I would if I didn't know if the attack was an attempt on my life or an attempt to subdue me. Nor would it be as fun, challenging, or exciting.

I'll address this in two parts.

1: As an individual who likes tactics, knowing whether the enemy intends to kill me or not can be important. That doesn't mean I can take it easy on the opponent (they could very well be tougher than me and if I take it easy I'll lose), nor does it mean it won't be a challenger. However, it can decide on how to proceed. If an opponent is trying to kill me, I'm more likely to put him down first and try to figure things out later. If someone isn't trying to kill me, I might try avoiding confrontation and talking it out, or hesitate to kill the person since he wasn't trying to kill me and that can cause escalation (if I try to cut his head off, if he wasn't trying to kill me before he might now!), or if backed into a corner I might choose surrender rather than death. While it does provide insight into a situation, there's still a lot of variables.

2: Above, I gave details of how such knowledge could be applied, which I normally don't do. I'll say, to date, I don't believe a single player has ever put that type of knowledge to good use (most players don't really tend to figure it out, or they've forgotten). A normal situation goes more like ...

Me: *See player select Sixth Sense (for the first time) on his new character.* "Okay, just for the record, some G.M. run it differently so I want to make sure we're on the same page. 1: It needs to be life-threatening. If someone isn't trying to kill you, it won't go off. 2: It needs to be unexpected. So if you walk into an enemy's stronghold expecting a confrontation, don't expect it to warn you of any danger while there. 3: It has a range. If you have a sniper 100 yards out, it won't do you any good." Note: To date, I don't believe I've ever used #3 against a player character before.

Player: "Yeah, that's cool." ((Or someone will complain about how gimped and useless the power is now and select something different).

A few months later ...

Me: "It's a surprise attack."

Player: "I have Sixth Sense."

Me: "Yes you do."

Player: "So I get the bonuses, right?"

Me: "No, it didn't go off."

Player: "Why not?"

Me: "Good question." *Long glare.* "So what do you do?"

This can result in further debate in the matter (without me explaining why other than possibly: "You don't know why. You'll have to figure it out."), or the player stumbling around but still not knowing why his Sixth Sense didn't warn him. That's the simple truth, at least in my experience.

And, let's say that during the course of combat, my character somehow got killed by a freak dice roll: if that happened, I'd be pretty mad at you for letting me get killed, when I had a chance to detect the imminent attack in the first place but you chose not to tell me that my Sixth Sense had triggered.

Sure, random luck can do a lot of things. Though if I killed you from an attack an accident, then I (as a G.M.) did do something wrong. The NPC should've been Pulling Punches, or using non-lethal weapons (such as a Nueral Mace), or stopped after seeing you more seriously injured, or decided it was worth killing you a while back in which case things would've changed. If I killed you because I was stupid, then you deserve to be mad. On the other hand, players should take responsibility for their own actions. If a player is under attack and jumps off a building because he thinks he can make it to the other side, fails, and dies. Well, yes, the confrontation ended up lethal, but just as I should take responsibility as a G.M. so too should the player. However, I have yet to kill a player character on "accident." Every time a player character has died in my games (and there's been a few times), I've done so knowingly.

Another problem I have with the whole lethality issue is that it's completely relative.

Not really. If the player character(s) do nothing, will the person die? So if they're just walking down the street, pretend they continue walking down the street and will take 0 combat actions (not even trying to defend themselves or run away). Will they die? If yes, it goes off. If no, then it does not. Note: I apply reality to the situation over game mechanics. So a gunshot to the head is lethal, even though one could argue they have enough S.D.C. that it wouldn't kill them.

Say a party of four 6th level Mind Melters are out for a stroll in the woods and fail to notice that a 10th level Lanotaur Hunter stalking them. So now the question is: Is the Lanotaur Hunter a lethal threat to the Mind Melters? If they are more than a match for him, then he's not a lethal threat and their Sixth Sense wouldn't trigger. But if they're not a match for him, then their Sixth Sense would trigger. Do you see how problematic this could be?

I don't actually know what a Lanotaur Hunter is, so I can't really answer the question. But I'll give a few examples for simplicity.

Situation A: Mind Melter(s) with Sixth Sense are being stalked by a monster fully capable of killing them. In a direct fight, the player characters could (easily) kill the monster. However, the monster is going to surprise attack them. An initial surprise attack could kill someone (in theory, like that gunshot to the head I mentioned earlier). If the players roll Natural 1s and the monster rolls Natural 20s it could kill more. Sixth Sense would go off before it attacks.

Situation B: Naturally M.D.C. Mind Melter(s) with Sixth Sense are being stalked by a S.D.C. monster. The monster could gnaw on their heads for 8 hours while they slept and still not kill them, even though it intends to try. No Sixth Sense.

Situation C: Mind Melter(s) with Sixth Sense are being stalked by a monster fully capable of killing them. In a direct fight, the player characters could (easily) kill the monster. The monster isn't going to ambush them though, and walks up to them, challenging them to direct combat. No Sixth Sense (because it won't be "unexpected" as it was upfront about the battle).

Situation D: Mind Melter(s) with Sixth Sense are being stalked by a monster fully capable of killing them. In a direct fight, the player characters could (easily) kill the monster. The monster isn't going to ambush them though, and walks up to them, challenging them to direct combat claiming he won't kill them (though he's hoping they'll let their guard down and then kill them anyways, bwuhahahahaha!!!). Sixth Sense would go off (because it's still unexpected, and if the characters do not prevent him the monster will kill them, even though stopping him isn't necessarily a challenge). Note: Of course, Sixth Sense going off doesn't mean the monster is lying. It could be that second monster lurking in the bushes, or a C.S. ambush, or the sounds of the fight will start an avalanche that might kill them all, etc.

Situation E: Mind Melter(s) with Sixth Sense are being stalked by a group of monsters fully capable of killing them. The ambush starts and no Sixth Sense (non-lethal). Realizing it's not lethal, meaning the monsters probably want them alive (for whatever reason), the characters break from cover (not in mortal danger afterall) and perform some other actions which really pin (and endanger) the monsters. The monsters radio in and get the clear from their boss for the use of lethal force. Sixth Sense now goes off ... and they better get to cover fast because they only have one (or maybe two if they're lucky) actions before it gets lethal!

Situation F: Flash flood, avalanche, etc. These are random acts that are not guaranteed to kill. However, in such situations, I'd favor the player characters and say they're lethal. If they survive (even if just by chance), I'd gladly argue that their awareness of the threat tilted the odds in their favor of survival.

So the player characters can take actions that turn a non-lethal situation into a lethal one (and that's their fault, and I may or may not give them warning depending on the specific situation, such as the example I gave in Situation E or the example to Dog_O_War with explosives breaching the hull). As a G.M., all I can do is control the NPC and the rest of nature. However, since as G.M. those fall under my domain, I know if they're going to be potentially lethal or not. That's not really relative though. If the player characters don't stop X from killing them, then they will die. Whether or not X is easy or difficult to stop isn't important, only that X will kill them.

Anyways, that's all for now. I wanted to respond to your post, but had been busy. Actually, I'm up way later than I should be as it is. Take care and hope you have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Devjannz]

Prysus,

I really enjoyed reading your response and insights on how Sixth Sense operates. I thought your examples made a lot of sense. Thanks for the ideas.

[MADMANMIKE]

I'll second Devjannz comment, great explanations bro.

I bowed out of this debate earlier as I felt it was clear which side was right, and have been scratching my head as to why it continues until now.

Nightfactory, you keep bringing up lethal situations and even go so far as to say:

Also, it locks the GM into a specific course of action ie. not killing the players.

This belies a serious rift between how you play and see the game and how I play and see the game. As a game master, I am always in the game to have fun and to participate in telling an awesome story. While the potential for life and death situations can be exciting and fun I have always steered away from them because I want the story to keep going.

None of my players complain (except one who doesn't show up for every session) when we go sometimes as many as 3 sessions without any combat. They're invested in their characters and exploring situations through them.. why in God's name would I want to kill their characters?! NOBODY would be happy then, and without happy there is no fun for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, a heroic death is awesome and memorable, but that's not the debate.. The debate is whether or not a non-lethal deliberate exposure to knock out gas would set off a psychic ability that explicitly says " The sixth sense is only triggered by an unexpected, life threatening event which is already set into motion and will happen any second." You insisted after I posted that quote from the text that 'it was up to [me]".. That I was 'interpreting' the text wrong, but you yourself then admit that you choose to interpret it differently.. See where my confusion is coming from?

I'm a big picture kind of guy (it took many years of adjustment to become one as being autistic usually means I can't see the forest for the trees), and when it comes to gaming I want a good long story with character growth and enlightenment, with some action thrown in here and there, not a series of life-and-death situations that are going to quickly bore the players and myself and force us to either quite playing or move on to something else. <--- A factual statement about myself and my players, not an implication/insinuation about anyone else.

Everyone I game with tends to crack wise both in and out of character throughout our sessions. Clearly we put comedy and drama above action in our games, that's just our preference, not me attempting to dis any other style of play. When I made the comment about my players all being mature adults, I wasn't implying anything about anyone, I was (as autistic people tend to do) literally describing my players; nobody gets butt-hurt at my games.

My most well received con adventure was 98% problem solving under the threat of danger and only 2% combat (and the group that loved it the most never fired a shot or directly encountered their enemy). As a G.M., that's how I roll. I understand that you probably don't do it that way, so therein lies the gap between our opinions.

[Grug]

The debate probably continues because people feel there is a right side and wrong side...

That being said, it's easy to see both sides of the argument and it just leads back to what you feel is a life threatening situation.

Personally as a gm I would say sixth sense would go off in the original scenario, there shouldn't be a right side/wrong side on this subject. As it all depends on how you take the written text. Yes the written text says a life threatening situation, I feel there is a difference between a life threatening situation and a life or death one. As a person if I walked into a room and it starts to fill with knock out gas, I'm going to feel my life is in jeopardy. That's just how I look at it. Perhaps a more rational person would go, it's only knock out gas they want me alive...

Another reason I would say it goes off is because with our group it's just going to create a better role-playing opportunity. Hell sixth sense could trigger and they still all fail their saving throws. Or it could not trigger and they all make their saving throws.

Quick question mmm. If you were gming this scenario right now and everyone made their save vs. Non lethal poison what would you do?

Now let's change the scenario just a bit. Elite assassins have been hired to kill the characters, they have researched the characters, probed their weakness and have assessed their powers. The assassins are now aware that a character has sixth sense and plan accordingly. They hire a plain old wizard to do nothing but cast cloud of slumber on the characters. Lets assume all the characters fail their save vs. Magic. Then the wizard sends the signal and the assassins come in and finish the job. The wizard doesn't know what's going to happen after he cast the spell.
How would you handle the scenario? Would sixth sense override the cloud of slumber spell? Or would the characters just be screwed? Or would you allow this scenario an exception to how you would normally rule it?

[arouetta]

The debate probably continues because people feel there is a right side and wrong side...

That being said, it's easy to see both sides of the argument and it just leads back to what you feel is a life threatening situation.

Personally as a gm I would say sixth sense would go off in the original scenario, there shouldn't be a right side/wrong side on this subject. As it all depends on how you take the written text. Yes the written text says a life threatening situation, I feel there is a difference between a life threatening situation and a life or death one. As a person if I walked into a room and it starts to fill with knock out gas, I'm going to feel my life is in jeopardy. That's just how I look at it. Perhaps a more rational person would go, it's only knock out gas they want me alive...

Another reason I would say it goes off is because with our group it's just going to create a better role-playing opportunity. Hell sixth sense could trigger and they still all fail their saving throws. Or it could not trigger and they all make their saving throws.

Quick question mmm. If you were gming this scenario right now and everyone made their save vs. Non lethal poison what would you do?

Now let's change the scenario just a bit. Elite assassins have been hired to kill the characters, they have researched the characters, probed their weakness and have assessed their powers. The assassins are now aware that a character has sixth sense and plan accordingly. They hire a plain old wizard to do nothing but cast cloud of slumber on the characters. Lets assume all the characters fail their save vs. Magic. Then the wizard sends the signal and the assassins come in and finish the job. The wizard doesn't know what's going to happen after he cast the spell.
How would you handle the scenario? Would sixth sense override the cloud of slumber spell? Or would the characters just be screwed? Or would you allow this scenario an exception to how you would normally rule it?

Depends on the delay. I personally would say the assassins set the events in motion to kill, so one minute prior to death (whether awake or asleep), sixth sense goes off. I would be kind enough to allow a second saving throw to wake up, but then again, I wouldn't do a TPK in this way to begin with.

Regarding the OP's motivation, since it's intended to profit the characters I see no problem with it. I would want my players to advance in game, and a few scare tactics thrown in from time to time never hurts game play. Without conflict, what is the point to the story?

[MADMANMIKE]

I'm autistic, I don't run scenarios without running all of the possible endings. If everyone makes their saving throws, they'll have an opportunity to try to escape the situation. If they escape the situation, their options are limited (they have a tin can for a ship and no supplies and are 1.5 months travel at their top speed to the nearest system and no decent navigation charts) but I'll run through what they want to do; I am a reactive GM, most often following the characters lead. This campaign started with "You've just ended your military service and need to get to the ship you've just inherited." That's the premise of this entire campaign, so everything revolves around that. If they decide to not go after the inheritance and try something else, that's what will happen.

The proposed scenario is just an means to an end. Having all their character sheets in front of me though, only two have any kind of bonus to save, and one of those is dropping out of the game, so it's now an NPC.

In your scenario it's obvious that you're trying create an end run around the letter of the ability and that's absurd. I wouldn't put characters in a scenario like that and am tempted to be insulted by the seeming suggestion that it's anything similar to what I've proposed. Like arouetta said, when the life-threatening situation arises the Sixth Sense goes off. There's nothing in the ability description that suggests otherwise, so your 'interpretation' is false. If you are being gassed with knockout gas, your feelings in reaction to it are irrelevant to what is actually happening. The ability has nothing to do with emotional response, it's a limited clairvoyance that literally knows if there's ill-intent, that's it.

[Grug]

The ability also says great peril, which is another word for risk. I'm going to go out on a limb and say we both agree that being in a comatose state is not a safe place.

The main difference is our point of view. You already know what's going to happen, you control the ability through your gm filter. I on the other hand veiw the ability through the players pov. The only time by the book the ability would take effect would be when someone is for sure trying to kill you. So that group waiting in the alley for you with the intention of robbing and raping you, but not killing you is okay to go.

Dude relax, I never said my scenario was what you were trying to accomplish. I just used the same principle (a non lethal attack). With an effect afterwards. So how you can say you might take offense is goofy to me.

Yes it's a way around how the ability works. That's the whole point, any smart villain should find ways around the players powers. And if the npc is supposed to be smart and dangerous. Then whats wrong with my scenario?
Hell I played an assassin character for a long time, this scenario is something my character would have thought about. If an enemy has an advantage how do I remove it. If players in my current campaign thought of it then I would say bravo and applaud them. Assuming I used the sixth sense as you interpretet it.

[MADMANMIKE]

I will agree to disagree, with the side note that my autism is railing at me to instead point out yet again that I am interpreting nothing, just reading what's there. Your game is yours, mine is mine, and in the end if we're having fun that's all that matters.

[say652]

Unless it involves death dying physical harm or pain sixth sense wont go off.

[Nightmask]

I will agree to disagree, with the side note that my autism is railing at me to instead point out yet again that I am interpreting nothing, just reading what's there. Your game is yours, mine is mine, and in the end if we're having fun that's all that matters.

While you may think that what you're seeing is somehow 'what's there' that doesn't mean it actually is or that you aren't interpreting it based on what you want it to say rather than what it actually says.

Sixth Sense is going to work against a non-lethal gas attack because it's an attack, it doesn't matter that those arranging to set it off aren't intent on injuring or killing them because it's an effort to forcibly render them unconscious and therefor helpless and vulnerable. It would warn them just as it would about a cargo net trap that was set up to non-lethally trap intruders in an area.

[say652]

@Madmanmike
Gm fiat.*cough* your game modify to fit*cough*
Non lethal attacks. Sixth sense. Hipsters.

[MADMANMIKE]

@Madmanmike
Gm fiat.*cough* your game modify to fit*cough*
Non lethal attacks. Sixth sense. Hipsters.

Do you want to explain what you're trying to say here? What's the Hipsters comment about? I'm 40 years old, I tend to associate that term with some other more blatantly insulting terms..

[say652]

As the gm you habe the power to make and modify abilities to fit your campaign. Lets see a minute particle of ion dust filters the cosmic rays temporarily negating all psychic abilities. As the gm its perfectly legal. And I'm not sure about the hipster thing.

[Damian Magecraft]

I will agree to disagree, with the side note that my autism is railing at me to instead point out yet again that I am interpreting nothing, just reading what's there. Your game is yours, mine is mine, and in the end if we're having fun that's all that matters.

While you may think that what you're seeing is somehow 'what's there' that doesn't mean it actually is or that you aren't interpreting it based on what you want it to say rather than what it actually says.

Sixth Sense is going to work against a non-lethal gas attack because it's an attack, it doesn't matter that those arranging to set it off aren't intent on injuring or killing them because it's an effort to forcibly render them unconscious and therefor helpless and vulnerable. It would warn them just as it would about a cargo net trap that was set up to non-lethally trap intruders in an area.

Not according to RAW.
Now RAI may Indeed be different.
But until the author of the ability comes into the thread and tells us what he intended we can only go with what is written.

While I may not agree with RAW it is quite plain.

[arouetta]

I will agree to disagree, with the side note that my autism is railing at me to instead point out yet again that I am interpreting nothing, just reading what's there. Your game is yours, mine is mine, and in the end if we're having fun that's all that matters.

While you may think that what you're seeing is somehow 'what's there' that doesn't mean it actually is or that you aren't interpreting it based on what you want it to say rather than what it actually says.

Sixth Sense is going to work against a non-lethal gas attack because it's an attack, it doesn't matter that those arranging to set it off aren't intent on injuring or killing them because it's an effort to forcibly render them unconscious and therefor helpless and vulnerable. It would warn them just as it would about a cargo net trap that was set up to non-lethally trap intruders in an area.

But it does not say "non-lethal attack". It does say "life threatening event". You can't ignore "life threatening" and still be canon. Your house rule should not be spoken as if it were canon, you should preface it by saying your interpretation is your house rule.

[say652]

Sorry psionic abilities are temporarily out of service, because the gm said so.
And every single one of us knows that is within reason of gm fiat.
If abilities become disruptive to my game I just dont allow them. Personally I kinda hate sixth sense, bio manipulation, carpet of adhesion and irl magicians.

[Dog_O_War]

Sixth Sense is going to work against a non-lethal gas attack because it's an attack

That's not a qualifier.
If "attack" were a qualifier, it'd go off whenever someone impuned - "attacked" - their character too. In the more strict sense of the word, the game establishes the difference between an attack meant to kill and one not meant to kill.

it doesn't matter that those arranging to set it off aren't intent on injuring or killing them because it's an effort to forcibly render them unconscious and therefor helpless and vulnerable.

"Helpless" and "vulnerable" are also not qualifiers, otherwise it'd go off every time the character was falling asleep.

It would warn them just as it would about a cargo net trap that was set up to non-lethally trap intruders in an area.

Again, "non-lethal" is also not a qualifier. It gets specific; it specifies "lethal".
Otherwise it'd go off when that group of supermodels attempted to capture said character with a cargo net so they could drag him back to their "lair" to "torture" him. Which, as unlikely as that scenario is, would otherwise set off sixth sense according to what you're saying qualifies.

Which it doesn't.

[Dog_O_War]

Sorry psionic abilities are temporarily out of service, because the gm said so.
And every single one of us knows that is within reason of gm fiat.

Yeah, but to say this is contrived and rail-roading - a major complaint of players everywhere. Rail-roading does not make for a good game or story. So avoid this reason like the plague.

If abilities become disruptive to my game I just dont allow them. Personally I kinda hate sixth sense, bio manipulation, carpet of adhesion and irl magicians.

All of those abilities have such an incredibly short range that it's kind of a non-issue, unless you let it be. An engagement at 300 feet or more generally renders most (non-damage) psychic/magic powers moot.

[say652]

Delphi Juicer. Autosodge crazy bonuses and sixth sense. Should a sniper get the drop on him? Should he be allowed a chance to dodge?
I would rather deal with a party of Norse giants over psionics anyday.

[Dog_O_War]

Delphi Juicer. Autosodge crazy bonuses and sixth sense. Should a sniper get the drop on him? Should he be allowed a chance to dodge?
I would rather deal with a party of Norse giants over psionics anyday.

That's a self-answering question. Juciers have the ability to roll a dodge even when they otherwise would not be able to.

And then they [Delphi Juicers] have sixth sense.

[Thinyser]

My call as GM is that Sixth Sense triggers in response to any potential threat and a gas that would incapacitate the PC's counts as a threat.

The actual text of the description (abridged):

This power gives the psychic a precognitive flash of imminent danger to himself or sombody near him... The sixth sense is triggered automatically, without the consent of the psychic, whenever his life is in great peril, or the life of somebody he greatly cares about (friend, loved one, etc.) The sixth sense is only triggered by an unexpected, life threatening event which is already set into motion and will happen any second.

By the text, it's not just a potential threat, it's 'great peril to life' and 'life threatening events'. Non-lethal gas not being followed by lethal attacks doesn't qualify.

I should have just looked it up instead of relying on my memory of the power.. I wonder how many other issues I've had over the years have been a result of faulty memory..

Yes the power is pretty cut and dried IMO. If it WILL cause imminent threat to life then it will set off the 6th sense. If said gas attack was the first in a series of actions that would complete within 60 seconds and cause a threat to life (like the gas would knock somebody out before they could shut down the engine or they were holding a dead man switch for a self destruct and their loss of consciousness would lead to imminent threat to life) then the 6th sense would go off. Another example would be if one of the party has it stuck in his head that he's never gonna be taken alive so at the first sign of gas attack he pulls out his sidearm and blasts his brains out. That would set off the 6th sense so long as the GM rules that the psychic is a close friend or loved one of the potentially suicidal group member. Otherwise no.

[Nightmask]

I will agree to disagree, with the side note that my autism is railing at me to instead point out yet again that I am interpreting nothing, just reading what's there. Your game is yours, mine is mine, and in the end if we're having fun that's all that matters.

While you may think that what you're seeing is somehow 'what's there' that doesn't mean it actually is or that you aren't interpreting it based on what you want it to say rather than what it actually says.

Sixth Sense is going to work against a non-lethal gas attack because it's an attack, it doesn't matter that those arranging to set it off aren't intent on injuring or killing them because it's an effort to forcibly render them unconscious and therefor helpless and vulnerable. It would warn them just as it would about a cargo net trap that was set up to non-lethally trap intruders in an area.

But it does not say "non-lethal attack". It does say "life threatening event". You can't ignore "life threatening" and still be canon. Your house rule should not be spoken as if it were canon, you should preface it by saying your interpretation is your house rule.

Well now I'm not going to call something a house rule if I don't feel it is one.

[Grug]

I can completely agree to disagree, mr. Madman
Glad to see people are still willing to do that around here!

I will admit that I'm taking a lot of liberties regarding how the rule is written. Hence why I can see your veiw as the 'right' view and mine as being wonky.

I just feel there's too much text in the sixth sense description if it only applies to life or death causes just say that lol. First they say danger, then when they say when life is in great peril which is another word for risk and vulnerable and finally the life threatening absolute statment. And as the good man Prysus said anything as simple as getting into the bath or walking in the rain could be life threatening.
So in the end when I gm, if the attack against the player/npc would require a saving throw (including parry/dodge, minus horror factor) sixth sense would go off.
But hey I'm weird and not a rules heavy type of gm. Last session for example, the players are in the land of the damned one of the players is kind of new to this campaign and is still trying to flush out his character a little more, a minotaur barbarian.
To keep this short and not derail your thread too much I will give you the abridged version. The group has to destroy Slaughter rock in the darkest heart and whip them into a blood frenzy. So another character (air/earth warlock) uses the sculpt and animate creature spell, to create a construct with body of a tusker and a drill like head. The minotaur makes it his mount and rides into the werebeast horde to try and save another player and then rolls 5 natural 20s in a row. It was crazy fun to gm, and later that night I asked the warlock player if he would be willing to lose some ppe permanently to make the tusker mount permanent for the other player who had a blast on back of it and named it already. Of course the warlock said yes. Cause it's what role-playing is all about having fun with friends!

Sorry about the long off topic rant... /blush.