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 Post subject: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:34 am
  

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Wanderer

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Does Anyone by chance know if there is a canon price on gas and such, or even guidelines? I cant finde of the game system any, but with the size of the Rifts Earth setting, that does not mean a thing...

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:18 pm
  

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Dakka, I spent forever looking for a price for gas on Rifts Earth and could not find even a mention of it. Truth is most gas powered vehicles do not even tell you how many gallons the tank is so the cost of the gas is only half the battle.

After doing some research and looking at the prices for other things like charging e-clips my group and I came up with a basic cost 7cr/gal for aviation grade fuel in civilized areas and going up to 12 to 20 cr/gal out in wild.

The way we figured it the supply is probably low but with all sort of alternatives we figure demand is not too high. I would guess fuel for ground vehicles and basic watercraft would be half that much maybe as high 4 cr/gal.

Its an excellent question though and it would be nice to see someone come up with that plus a list of how many gallons in a vehicles tank.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:07 am
  

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Wanderer

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I came to gather a similar view, plus a really good G.M. friend of mine gave an ide that vehicles would maybe run off of wood gas. I'm just stuck with the realities of running my first large scale Campaign, plus the added fun of trying to remember all of this when my laptop battery dies...

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:43 pm
  

Hero

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Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't very few vehicles actually petrol based? Aren't most powered by a long term supply like a small nuke or fusion plant?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:16 pm
  

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Champion

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If you can find one, I believe the cost of fuel can be found on the Rifts Game Master screen. It has costs for salvage, materials, etc. And I am reasonably certain I have seen fuel prices on it as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:51 pm
  

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Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't very few vehicles actually petrol based? Aren't most powered by a long term supply like a small nuke or fusion plant?

It depends on the vehicles. Robots and power armors yes, but other vehicles like hover bikes or helicopters all have gas alternatives that are far cheaper and so in my game that means they are far more common, especially for people that stay near cities.

Dog_O_War wrote:
If you can find one, I believe the cost of fuel can be found on the Rifts Game Master screen. It has costs for salvage, materials, etc. And I am reasonably certain I have seen fuel prices on it as well.

If you are speaking of the old GM's screen that has a red borg on the front I do have one and cost of fuel is not listed, just checked.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:37 pm
  

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"fuel powered" motors in Rifts use the flexfuel system, which is gasoline, natural gas, alcohol...basically anything that's liquid and combustable can be fed into a flexfuel engine. So if you have a scholar with chemistry and a little lab, it should be pretty easy to make your own fuel for cheap and not worry much about it. If you don't, there are so many options you can probably find fuel anywhere there is even a modicrum of technology for easy trade or cheap cash.

My personal opinion is not to charge them over 15 credits a gallon, but no less than 5, depending on location and availability.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:57 am
  

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Alrik Vas wrote:
"fuel powered" motors in Rifts use the flexfuel system, which is gasoline, natural gas, alcohol...basically anything that's liquid and combustable can be fed into a flexfuel engine. So if you have a scholar with chemistry and a little lab, it should be pretty easy to make your own fuel for cheap and not worry much about it. If you don't, there are so many options you can probably find fuel anywhere there is even a modicrum of technology for easy trade or cheap cash.

My personal opinion is not to charge them over 15 credits a gallon, but no less than 5, depending on location and availability.

Is there anywhere that alcohol prices are listed. May be a comparison...

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:57 am
  

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Alrik Vas wrote:
"fuel powered" motors in Rifts use the flexfuel system, which is gasoline, natural gas, alcohol...basically anything that's liquid and combustable can be fed into a flexfuel engine. So if you have a scholar with chemistry and a little lab, it should be pretty easy to make your own fuel for cheap and not worry much about it. If you don't, there are so many options you can probably find fuel anywhere there is even a modicrum of technology for easy trade or cheap cash.

My personal opinion is not to charge them over 15 credits a gallon, but no less than 5, depending on location and availability.

Is there anywhere that alcohol prices are listed. May be a comparison...

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:23 am
  

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Champion

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Warshield73 wrote:
Dog_O_War wrote:
If you can find one, I believe the cost of fuel can be found on the Rifts Game Master screen. It has costs for salvage, materials, etc. And I am reasonably certain I have seen fuel prices on it as well.

If you are speaking of the old GM's screen that has a red borg on the front I do have one and cost of fuel is not listed, just checked.

I am not sure; I don't own the screens, but a friend of mine has them. I will check with him and confirm.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:59 am
  

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Wanderer

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Part of my problem is I was looking for a simple answer that had a broad effect. Then I remembered why I love Rifts; nothing is broad or simple. So thanks for the input guys. I now just wonder if when reactors die, how do people deal wth that.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:04 am
  

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Knight

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Sorry for being so late to the party guys. I normally try to be around more often but I have been seriously swamped with work, without exaggerating I think I've had about... 2 hours total free where I was not actually working or unconcious in the last 3-4 days.

Anyway, to answer your question the official rules for gas are in Rifts: Sourcebook 1 (Expanded and Revised) in the robot rules near the power source section (off the top of my head, it isnt in the power source section though. I think its just before it.).

Yup, there she is... page 27 under "Fuel Injected Engine."

Reasonable prices are 2D4 credits per gallon from merchants, 1D4×10 credits from towns where gas is scarce. You should check it all out for yourself though, its a lot of fun.

Oh, and remember this next time someone tries telling you Rifts doesn't have rules for something. ;) :P :ok:

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:41 pm
  

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Akashic Soldier wrote:
Sorry for being so late to the party guys. I normally try to be around more often but I have been seriously swamped with work, without exaggerating I think I've had about... 2 hours total free where I was not actually working or unconcious in the last 3-4 days.

Anyway, to answer your question the official rules for gas are in Rifts: Sourcebook 1 (Expanded and Revised) in the robot rules near the power source section (off the top of my head, it isnt in the power source section though. I think its just before it.).

Yup, there she is... page 27 under "Fuel Injected Engine."

Reasonable prices are 2D4 credits per gallon from merchants, 1D4×10 credits from towns where gas is scarce. You should check it all out for yourself though, its a lot of fun.

Oh, and remember this next time someone tries telling you Rifts doesn't have rules for something. ;) :P :ok:

*double facepalm* That was the first book I checked...
Now, just to find out the prices for replacement nuclear cores.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:43 pm
  

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Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Part of my problem is I was looking for a simple answer that had a broad effect. Then I remembered why I love Rifts; nothing is broad or simple. So thanks for the input guys. I now just wonder if when reactors die, how do people deal wth that.


They either wait until they can reach a black market outlet to replace it, salvage one along the way, convert to something else (like a Techno-Wizard power source), or reluctantly abandon or sell it off if they can't find a replacement nuclear power core in what they consider a reasonable amount of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:03 pm
  

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Nightmask wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Part of my problem is I was looking for a simple answer that had a broad effect. Then I remembered why I love Rifts; nothing is broad or simple. So thanks for the input guys. I now just wonder if when reactors die, how do people deal wth that.


They either wait until they can reach a black market outlet to replace it, salvage one along the way, convert to something else (like a Techno-Wizard power source), or reluctantly abandon or sell it off if they can't find a replacement nuclear power core in what they consider a reasonable amount of time.

Speaking of this, does it say how much it costs to replace a nuclear core or anti-matter in Phase World? I have just used the cost of the reactor under Robot power systems in the Rifts SB1.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:37 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Part of my problem is I was looking for a simple answer that had a broad effect. Then I remembered why I love Rifts; nothing is broad or simple. So thanks for the input guys. I now just wonder if when reactors die, how do people deal wth that.


They either wait until they can reach a black market outlet to replace it, salvage one along the way, convert to something else (like a Techno-Wizard power source), or reluctantly abandon or sell it off if they can't find a replacement nuclear power core in what they consider a reasonable amount of time.


Speaking of this, does it say how much it costs to replace a nuclear core or anti-matter in Phase World? I have just used the cost of the reactor under Robot power systems in the Rifts SB1.


I don't think I've ever seen replacement costs on nuclear power cores, probably because of the assumption people are starting with fully charged cores and most the lifespan is long enough the PC is likely to have to replace the armor long before the power core.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:19 am
  

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Nightmask wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen replacement costs on nuclear power cores, probably because of the assumption people are starting with fully charged cores and most the lifespan is long enough the PC is likely to have to replace the armor long before the power core.

True enough, the only time it has come up is when the PC's have "acquired" a mech from others or when they have uncovered pre-rifts tech with depleted cores.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:00 am
  

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Knight

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Because they're micronized the engines are designed so the cores cannot be replaced. You have to replace the entire engine when it burns out. The cost for that, like the rest of this, is SB1r. :ok:

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:23 pm
  

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Knight

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Is cost for replacing a gas engine with a reactor in there as well? I don't have the revised version. I thoght it might be in the Golden Age Weaponsmiths section of Mercenaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:42 am
  

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I would guess that the price of fuel would be based on the demand and availability. If in your campaign Gas is easy to get as going to a gas station, then base it on the price of gas near you in credits. If it is rare and hard to get then find out what your players willing to pay/barter for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:46 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: Theres space for a paper airplane race in the eye of a hurricane.
Alrik Vas wrote:
Is cost for replacing a gas engine with a reactor in there as well?


Yup, you're looking at about 50,000 credits for a standard fuel injected engine and 75,000 credits for a turbo liquid fuel engine. The price of replacing them with a reactor is considerably more, you're looking in the millions.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:59 am
  

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Hero

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This whole debate reminds me of a scene from an anime "Metal Skin Panic MADOX-01" where our "hero" was at a gas station needing a fill up for his flight systems where the rest of the PA ran on a mini-nuc reactor.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:16 pm
  

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Akashic Soldier wrote:
Because they're micronized the engines are designed so the cores cannot be replaced. You have to replace the entire engine when it burns out. The cost for that, like the rest of this, is SB1r. :ok:

Is this in any of the books or is it just how you run it? I have never seen this and truthfully it makes almost no sense to me. The cost would be unreal.

Alrik Vas wrote:
Is cost for replacing a gas engine with a reactor in there as well? I don't have the revised version. I thoght it might be in the Golden Age Weaponsmiths section of Mercenaries.

I don't think this can be done. It would be like turning a standard gas powered car into a an electric Tesla. Too many parts and systems would need to be changed. I have always run this as being cheaper to buy new then to pay the parts and labor of converting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:37 pm
  

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Palladin

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Warshield73 wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Because they're micronized the engines are designed so the cores cannot be replaced. You have to replace the entire engine when it burns out. The cost for that, like the rest of this, is SB1r. :ok:

Is this in any of the books or is it just how you run it? I have never seen this and truthfully it makes almost no sense to me. The cost would be unreal.

Alrik Vas wrote:
Is cost for replacing a gas engine with a reactor in there as well? I don't have the revised version. I thoght it might be in the Golden Age Weaponsmiths section of Mercenaries.


I don't think this can be done. It would be like turning a standard gas powered car into a an electric Tesla. Too many parts and systems would need to be changed. I have always run this as being cheaper to buy new then to pay the parts and labor of converting it.


Given Techno-Wizards yank out gasoline engines and replace them with TW engines as a standard class feature it's clearly not that big a deal when it comes to removing parts and configuring new things in their place. So other than the cost of the reactor being fairly high it's not that unrealistic to think a competent engineer (let alone a place that does it for a living) could pull a gasoline engine and install a reactor-powered electric motor that feeds the drive train instead. At least some vehicles list the costs for going with nuclear over gasoline so it must not be that big a deal from a technical aspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:53 pm
  

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Nightmask wrote:
Given Techno-Wizards yank out gasoline engines and replace them with TW engines as a standard class feature it's clearly not that big a deal when it comes to removing parts and configuring new things in their place. So other than the cost of the reactor being fairly high it's not that unrealistic to think a competent engineer (let alone a place that does it for a living) could pull a gasoline engine and install a reactor-powered electric motor that feeds the drive train instead. At least some vehicles list the costs for going with nuclear over gasoline so it must not be that big a deal from a technical aspect.

That is techno-wizardry all it does is change the fuel source, everything else still physically runs the same. You can't compare changing tech systems with magic because it's, well magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:28 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Given Techno-Wizards yank out gasoline engines and replace them with TW engines as a standard class feature it's clearly not that big a deal when it comes to removing parts and configuring new things in their place. So other than the cost of the reactor being fairly high it's not that unrealistic to think a competent engineer (let alone a place that does it for a living) could pull a gasoline engine and install a reactor-powered electric motor that feeds the drive train instead. At least some vehicles list the costs for going with nuclear over gasoline so it must not be that big a deal from a technical aspect.

That is techno-wizardry all it does is change the fuel source, everything else still physically runs the same. You can't compare changing tech systems with magic because it's, well magic.


Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:44 am
  

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Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

To less advanced people, not the tech.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:01 am
  

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I think the point he was making was, the technology of rifts earth is 200-400 years more advanced than our best technology today. It'd be like trying to explain how a smart phone worked to someone from the 1800s. Sure, they might recognize the principles from science fiction but they'd have no idea how to replicate it or or how it actually worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:49 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Given Techno-Wizards yank out gasoline engines and replace them with TW engines as a standard class feature it's clearly not that big a deal when it comes to removing parts and configuring new things in their place. So other than the cost of the reactor being fairly high it's not that unrealistic to think a competent engineer (let alone a place that does it for a living) could pull a gasoline engine and install a reactor-powered electric motor that feeds the drive train instead. At least some vehicles list the costs for going with nuclear over gasoline so it must not be that big a deal from a technical aspect.


That is techno-wizardry all it does is change the fuel source, everything else still physically runs the same. You can't compare changing tech systems with magic because it's, well magic.


You need to reread it, you aren't changing the fuel source you're completely replacing the engine and yes I can compare them because as I noted they're completely removing the original gasoline engine and replacing it with an electric engine with the TW electrical generator as the power and nothing to suggest that they're doing a costly conversion process. Given how common the conversion is it's clearly cost-competitive.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:33 pm
  

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Regardless, guys, they list vehicles (like the Mountaineer or Big Boss ATV) that have Electric, Combustion and Nuclear options. If you can pick and choose, converting shouldn't be an issue.

Golden Age actually specializes in doing these sorts of things. I just couldn't remember the cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:17 pm
  

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First I just want to remind everyone that the reason we are having this discussion is that none of this is in the books. Its all just how we run our games.

I personally do not run tech on Rifts Earth as if it is miraculous or magic for engineers. I run it much more in the vain of Babylon 5 or Honor Harrington. In B5 you see human ships with rotating sections decades after they get gravity fields from the minbari because it makes no sense to try and change it. Or in HH where trillion dollar starships that are less then 10 years old are decommissioned because it is too expensive to refit them with radical new tech.

Second, I didn't say that I don't allow it. I just said it is too expensive to be worth it. I also say that it is worth less then the genuine article, which to me just makes sense. If you have the choice of a Mountaineer ATV built by the factory or a former gas model with the engine ripped out and a nuke plant dropped in.

Warshield73 wrote:
I don't think this can be done. It would be like turning a standard gas powered car into a an electric Tesla. Too many parts and systems would need to be changed. I have always run this as being cheaper to buy new then to pay the parts and labor of converting it.


Akashic Soldier wrote:
I think the point he was making was, the technology of rifts earth is 200-400 years more advanced than our best technology today. It'd be like trying to explain how a smart phone worked to someone from the 1800s. Sure, they might recognize the principles from science fiction but they'd have no idea how to replicate it or or how it actually worked.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said, I just don't understand how it applies to what we were talking about. The conversation was about conversion of engines not explaining it to low tech people.

Nightmask wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
That is techno-wizardry all it does is change the fuel source, everything else still physically runs the same. You can't compare changing tech systems with magic because it's, well magic.


You need to reread it, you aren't changing the fuel source you're completely replacing the engine and yes I can compare them because as I noted they're completely removing the original gasoline engine and replacing it with an electric engine with the TW electrical generator as the power and nothing to suggest that they're doing a costly conversion process. Given how common the conversion is it's clearly cost-competitive.

First one thing you are right I should have said power source, not fuel source. If you are referring to information RUE, New West, Federation of magic and others I have read it, multiple times recently as I am trying to create TW character for convention games.

The point I was trying to make was that TW is magic, it allows you to circumvent physics (RUE pg 129) which nuclear power conversion does not allow. TW systems do need to still physically work, this is why they have engineering skills, but the level of detail is different. You can't correct inadequate RAD shielding with a 5,000 credit ruby.

Alrik Vas wrote:
Regardless, guys, they list vehicles (like the Mountaineer or Big Boss ATV) that have Electric, Combustion and Nuclear options. If you can pick and choose, converting shouldn't be an issue.

I just see this as not the same thing. It is one thing to build something from scratch and something else entirely to change it later. It's not as easy as editing your post on the boards.

If you bought a smart phone without Wi-Fi could you just add it on later? How expensive would that be? what would the phone look like after? If you could wouldn't you just buy one with it and sell off the old one?

Alrik Vas wrote:
Golden Age actually specializes in doing these sorts of things. I just couldn't remember the cost.

Can you give book and page for this? I went through all the Golden Age stuff last night and I didn't see anything about this. All of there old tech still runs on gas. Only a few vehicles that they have heavily improved (like the Blackhawk) even have electric. None have nuke.

As for more advanced tech being easier to change then less advanced, that just isn't realistic. The more complicated something is, the harder and more involved any modifications can be.

Again just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:42 pm
  

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I thought it was in Mercenaries, but if you didn't find it, i'll trust that i'm mistaken on that.

Though, being that this is an RPG, and it's Rifts on top of that, i don't see why it isn't possible. I know the logic doesn't count or work, but when you want to do something in an RPG you find or explain a way and that's pretty much it. It's why we play. It's not a world competition where we need to stick to league rules or anything.

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Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:41 pm
  

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Dead Reign has the price for Fuel/Diesel at $5 per gallon.........as a side note Propane is $5-$10 per galon

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:48 pm
  

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Don't forget that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil. Just filter the cooking oil a couple of times to get the cooked food out of it and it will run fine. You'll lose about 10% mpg, but used cooking oil is so easy to obtain for free or cheaply that the slight loss of mileage would not be an issue. I am surprised that there already isn't a business that is taking the used oil from restaurants for free (who normally have to PAY to get their used oil taken away) and converting it into cheap diesel fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:56 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:57 pm
  

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Palladin

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Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
That is techno-wizardry all it does is change the fuel source, everything else still physically runs the same. You can't compare changing tech systems with magic because it's, well magic.


You need to reread it, you aren't changing the fuel source you're completely replacing the engine and yes I can compare them because as I noted they're completely removing the original gasoline engine and replacing it with an electric engine with the TW electrical generator as the power and nothing to suggest that they're doing a costly conversion process. Given how common the conversion is it's clearly cost-competitive.

First one thing you are right I should have said power source, not fuel source. If you are referring to information RUE, New West, Federation of magic and others I have read it, multiple times recently as I am trying to create TW character for convention games.

The point I was trying to make was that TW is magic, it allows you to circumvent physics (RUE pg 129) which nuclear power conversion does not allow. TW systems do need to still physically work, this is why they have engineering skills, but the level of detail is different. You can't correct inadequate RAD shielding with a 5,000 credit ruby.


I get the feeling you think the nuclear power supplies of Rifts are extraordinarily large or otherwise cumbersome and unwieldy which isn't in keeping with the material. The TW isn't circumventing physics either, the amount of space available for installing a TW generator and electric motor in place of a conventional internal combustion engine doesn't change.

Nuclear power cores can't be that large physically as they are used in things as relatively small as power armor, they can't actually be that expensive or difficult to use as an optional install on vehicles either or they wouldn't be offered as an option. There's also the point that you don't have just the engine cavity to install everything into, one could be putting the power core in the place where the fuel tank normally goes and running a power cable bundle to the engine cavity to power the electrical motor.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:00 am
  

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dragonfett wrote:
Don't forget that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil. Just filter the cooking oil a couple of times to get the cooked food out of it and it will run fine. You'll lose about 10% mpg, but used cooking oil is so easy to obtain for free or cheaply that the slight loss of mileage would not be an issue. I am surprised that there already isn't a business that is taking the used oil from restaurants for free (who normally have to PAYP to get their used oil taken away) and converting it into cheap diesel fuel.


Some business do actually do that, it's profitable enough that there is even crime associated with people stealing the oil for just that purpose. Particularly when the last rapid spike in gas prices occurred and people were suddenly seeing a lot of those alternative sources as viable alternatives to fossil fuels.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:46 pm
  

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Alrik Vas wrote:
I thought it was in Mercenaries, but if you didn't find it, i'll trust that i'm mistaken on that.

I looked through both Mercs books and a few others and outside of the nuclear powered pre-rifts aircraft carriers in CS Navy book. Even the NG book 1 says that they don't consider GAW direct competition because of there low tech base.

Alrik Vas wrote:
Though, being that this is an RPG, and it's Rifts on top of that, i don't see why it isn't possible. I know the logic doesn't count or work, but when you want to do something in an RPG you find or explain a way and that's pretty much it. It's why we play. It's not a world competition where we need to stick to league rules or anything.

Kevin talks all the time about how personal gaming is, that's what makes this different from everything else. In a video game your just stuck, this is the way it is, but with gaming it works how you say it does.

dragonfett wrote:
Don't forget that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil.

Are there any official rules for how the gas engines work? In an earlier post someone said that all gas engines are flex fuel that can run off wood alcohol is that in a book that I have missed or is just how people play it? The only thing I know about bio-diesel is that our school buses kept breaking down when they were using it.

In the Juicer uprising book some of the vehicles are described as flex fuel but everything else just says gas, doesn't even say diesel. Like I said earlier this is one of my biggest complaints in Rifts because not only can you not find cost of fuel anywhere but even if you figure that out you have to determine how big a tank the vehicle has. It would be nice if they clarified this in a book. List of vehicles, or just types of vehicles, with tank size, what counts as fuel, where to get it and how much it costs.

For someone with some technical knowledge (meaning not me) this might make a decent Rifter article.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:21 pm
  

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Nightmask wrote:
I get the feeling you think the nuclear power supplies of Rifts are extraordinarily large or otherwise cumbersome and unwieldy which isn't in keeping with the material.

I think that nuclear power supplies are incredibly complex devices that require a lot of shielding, monitoring equipment and technical knowhow. This is backed up by the huge difference a nuclear power supply makes in the cost of a vehicle.

I also think, given the material, that they are size specific. So a terrain hopper has a tiny one, a GB has a small one, an enforcer has medium one and a behemoth has a huge one. You can't run a behemoth off the nuke plant for a terrain hopper. They even talk about the in WB 6, where they had to cannibalize several robot vehicle reactors just to get 1/4 speed.

I do not believe that it is in any way realistic to say that you can just drop a rift nuclear plant in to a 2013 Hyundai in your garage and it will all work fine.

Nightmask wrote:
The TW isn't circumventing physics either

Direct quote, from RUE page 129. Take it up with Carmen if you have a problem I am not involved.

Nightmask wrote:
the amount of space available for installing a TW generator and electric motor in place of a conventional internal combustion engine doesn't change.

No it does not change. The advantage TW has is that it does not need any of the monitoring equipment, shielding or the million other things that a high tech miniaturized nuclear plant would require.

Nightmask wrote:
Nuclear power cores can't be that large physically as they are used in things as relatively small as power armor

Never said they were large.

Nightmask wrote:
they can't actually be that expensive or difficult to use

Some vehicels are 10 to 15 more expensive with a nuclear power plan then gas or electric, especially aircraft. An Iron Eagle Helicopter is 1.5 million for gas or 24 million nuclear. And while that is on the high end it is not the outlier, it is well within the median. That seems expensive to me.

Nightmask wrote:
optional install on vehicles either or they wouldn't be offered as an option.

I think this is where we play it differently. I do not treat the power plant (gas, electric, nuclear, anti-matter) as option like a CD player or sound system. They talk about "versions" being available.

I mean you do not go to the dealership and say "can you add the hybrid option to my car". No, it is built, in the factory, from start to finish as either a standard gas or a hybrid you can't go back and forth.

Nightmask wrote:
There's also the point that you don't have just the engine cavity to install everything into, one could be putting the power core in the place where the fuel tank normally goes and running a power cable bundle to the engine cavity to power the electrical motor.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said and you just proved my point. Buy the time you pay for all that work it would have just been cheaper to buy the vehicle as a premade nuclear vehicle.

And, you just admitted that the vehicle will be more vulnerable to battle damage and therefore not worth as much or are those "power cable bundles" immune to damage.

Like I said before I just play it different. I like a harsh, more realistic or familiar feel to the tech. After all most of rifts earth is less advanced then golden age and the olden age is only 85 years away. If you like a more fanciful tech system then that's cool but there is nothing in the books that says that's the way it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:11 am
  

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Palladin

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Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
I get the feeling you think the nuclear power supplies of Rifts are extraordinarily large or otherwise cumbersome and unwieldy which isn't in keeping with the material.


I think that nuclear power supplies are incredibly complex devices that require a lot of shielding, monitoring equipment and technical knowhow. This is backed up by the huge difference a nuclear power supply makes in the cost of a vehicle.

I also think, given the material, that they are size specific. So a terrain hopper has a tiny one, a GB has a small one, an enforcer has medium one and a behemoth has a huge one. You can't run a behemoth off the nuke plant for a terrain hopper. They even talk about the in WB 6, where they had to cannibalize several robot vehicle reactors just to get 1/4 speed.

I do not believe that it is in any way realistic to say that you can just drop a rift nuclear plant in to a 2013 Hyundai in your garage and it will all work fine.


Given that's not anything I said that's a good thing, also what you think regarding nuclear power supplies doesn't constitute a fact. We don't know what materials they use as shielding for example, exotic materials can provide more compact shielding than what we have today. They also aren't likely to be constructed like nuclear power plants with worries about the materials going super-critical and requiring massive monitoring of thousands of systems to ensure that it doesn't hapen.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
The TW isn't circumventing physics either


Direct quote, from RUE page 129. Take it up with Carmen if you have a problem I am not involved.


For the life of me I can't imagine why you cut up the sentence this is part of, other than perhaps to try and confuse things and ascribe to me something I didn't actually say. Since this PART of my post requires the REST of it to put it into context.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
the amount of space available for installing a TW generator and electric motor in place of a conventional internal combustion engine doesn't change.


No it does not change. The advantage TW has is that it does not need any of the monitoring equipment, shielding or the million other things that a high tech miniaturized nuclear plant would require.


Unfortunately all of that is simply stuff you tack on to up the complexity and size requirements for nuclear power cores, none of it is particularly canon. How much actually goes into a nuclear power core is vague but clearly it's extremely reliable as we see nothing that suggests they require routine maintenance or upkeep.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Nuclear power cores can't be that large physically as they are used in things as relatively small as power armor


Never said they were large.


Again there's no reason to be cutting up sentences, removing them from their context, and creating an impression of things being said that weren't.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
they can't actually be that expensive or difficult to use


Some vehicels are 10 to 15 more expensive with a nuclear power plan then gas or electric, especially aircraft. An Iron Eagle Helicopter is 1.5 million for gas or 24 million nuclear. And while that is on the high end it is not the outlier, it is well within the median. That seems expensive to me.


Some vehicles require more extensive modifications to run them off of nuclear, particularly aircraft. You're having to replace all those expensive engines with engines that run on electricity for example rather than jet fuel and that's going to require a lot more adjustment than doing the same with a car.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
optional install on vehicles either or they wouldn't be offered as an option.


I think this is where we play it differently. I do not treat the power plant (gas, electric, nuclear, anti-matter) as option like a CD player or sound system. They talk about "versions" being available.

I mean you do not go to the dealership and say "can you add the hybrid option to my car". No, it is built, in the factory, from start to finish as either a standard gas or a hybrid you can't go back and forth.


Not a particularly valid comparison. The hybrid feature requires both keeping the gasoline engine and packing even more stuff into the same vehicle. Gasoline vs nuclear instead has you with either the gasoline engine and fuel tank or install an electric engine in its place and a nuclear core in place of the fuel tank. The engine cavity can easily be configured so that the gasoline engine and electric engine are fairly interchangeable as well with the fuel tank and nuclear power supply. Comparable to swapping out a gasoline engine and replacing it with a diesel engine.

Warshield73 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
There's also the point that you don't have just the engine cavity to install everything into, one could be putting the power core in the place where the fuel tank normally goes and running a power cable bundle to the engine cavity to power the electrical motor.


I absolutely agree with everything you just said and you just proved my point. Buy the time you pay for all that work it would have just been cheaper to buy the vehicle as a premade nuclear vehicle.

And, you just admitted that the vehicle will be more vulnerable to battle damage and therefore not worth as much or are those "power cable bundles" immune to damage.

Like I said before I just play it different. I like a harsh, more realistic or familiar feel to the tech. After all most of rifts earth is less advanced then golden age and the olden age is only 85 years away. If you like a more fanciful tech system then that's cool but there is nothing in the books that says that's the way it is.


I didn't admit to any such things, or do you think they'd be running the power harness outside the vehicle for some really bizarre reason instead of having it internal like all the rest of the electrical wiring harness? Because that would be really, REALLY stupid to put the power lines OUTSIDE the vehicle instead of keeping them INSIDE where you'd have to destroy the vehicle to destroy the connection. So no, the vehicle is no more vulnerable to battle damage converted to nuclear than it would be running on gasoline. If anything it's LESS vulnerable since the gas tank is likely less able to handle shrapnel than a heavily armored nuclear core with an armored electrical harness conduit.

Nor does what I said prove anything of your point since there are still valid reasons to simply convert an existing vehicle to nuclear. It's certainly not so horribly time consuming as you make it out to be to pull off, no more so than any other vehicle refit and people have no problems with those expenses. Plus making the vehicles to be easily retrofit can be a cost-saving measure.

As far as Rifts tech goes, tech like the nuclear cores and many vehicles are just as advanced as the Golden as because that's where all the technical data and manufacturing designs comes from. The Glitter Boys of current Rifts are identical to those from the Golden Age, as are the SAMAS and E-clips and many other things. They may not have progressed further (in general) than the Golden Age but many things are running tech that was developed and used during the Golden Age.

Plus I shouldn't have to point out that Rifts Earth is NOT comparable to OUR Earth. It's a world that has had supernatural entities living in the background for thousands of years and psychic powers are real, its '85 years later' is based on things existing that even in its 2013 are well in advance of what we've got. Its tech development is far in advance of what we're going to manage by then.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:05 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
Don't forget that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil.

Are there any official rules for how the gas engines work? In an earlier post someone said that all gas engines are flex fuel that can run off wood alcohol is that in a book that I have missed or is just how people play it? The only thing I know about bio-diesel is that our school buses kept breaking down when they were using it.

In the Juicer uprising book some of the vehicles are described as flex fuel but everything else just says gas, doesn't even say diesel. Like I said earlier this is one of my biggest complaints in Rifts because not only can you not find cost of fuel anywhere but even if you figure that out you have to determine how big a tank the vehicle has. It would be nice if they clarified this in a book. List of vehicles, or just types of vehicles, with tank size, what counts as fuel, where to get it and how much it costs.

For someone with some technical knowledge (meaning not me) this might make a decent Rifter article.


When I said that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil, I was talking about in real life. The Mythbusters even tested this one and found that it certainly is a viable alternative.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:40 am
  

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dragonfett wrote:
When I said that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil, I was talking about in real life. The Mythbusters even tested this one and found that it certainly is a viable alternative.

This isn't what I meant. What you said is exactly correct and I know all about it.

What I meant was some vehicles say flex-fuel, some say diesel and others just say gasoline which I interpret as standard petroleum based gasoline.

Is there anything in the books that say all gas vehicles can use any type of fuel or is that just how people run it?

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:24 am
  

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Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Does Anyone by chance know if there is a canon price on gas and such, or even guidelines? I cant finde of the game system any, but with the size of the Rifts Earth setting, that does not mean a thing...


Never seen such a stat stated, but I personally make it relative to the game setting. For example, if the game is in Rifts Austrailia, fuel is very dear indeed (5K-25K+ ). In Rifts North America, it varies greatly. In some places, it's cheap (200cr per fill-up), in other places more expensive (1Kcr per fill-up).

Good question.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:04 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
When I said that any diesel engine can run off of used cooking oil, I was talking about in real life. The Mythbusters even tested this one and found that it certainly is a viable alternative.

This isn't what I meant. What you said is exactly correct and I know all about it.

What I meant was some vehicles say flex-fuel, some say diesel and others just say gasoline which I interpret as standard petroleum based gasoline.

Is there anything in the books that say all gas vehicles can use any type of fuel or is that just how people run it?


The way that you had clipped my quote and the question you had asked, I thought that you were asking game specifically and I was pointing out that I was talking real life, but now I understand what you were asking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:49 pm
  

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Akashic Soldier wrote:
Sorry for being so late to the party guys. I normally try to be around more often but I have been seriously swamped with work, without exaggerating I think I've had about... 2 hours total free where I was not actually working or unconcious in the last 3-4 days.

Anyway, to answer your question the official rules for gas are in Rifts: Sourcebook 1 (Expanded and Revised) in the robot rules near the power source section (off the top of my head, it isnt in the power source section though. I think its just before it.).

Yup, there she is... page 27 under "Fuel Injected Engine."

Reasonable prices are 2D4 credits per gallon from merchants, 1D4×10 credits from towns where gas is scarce. You should check it all out for yourself though, its a lot of fun.

Oh, and remember this next time someone tries telling you Rifts doesn't have rules for something. ;) :P :ok:

Anything in there about how many gallons each vehicle tank has? I have always had to make up a number based on current vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:03 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Akashic Soldier wrote:
Sorry for being so late to the party guys. I normally try to be around more often but I have been seriously swamped with work, without exaggerating I think I've had about... 2 hours total free where I was not actually working or unconcious in the last 3-4 days.

Anyway, to answer your question the official rules for gas are in Rifts: Sourcebook 1 (Expanded and Revised) in the robot rules near the power source section (off the top of my head, it isnt in the power source section though. I think its just before it.).

Yup, there she is... page 27 under "Fuel Injected Engine."

Reasonable prices are 2D4 credits per gallon from merchants, 1D4×10 credits from towns where gas is scarce. You should check it all out for yourself though, its a lot of fun.

Oh, and remember this next time someone tries telling you Rifts doesn't have rules for something. ;) :P :ok:

Anything in there about how many gallons each vehicle tank has? I have always had to make up a number based on current vehicles.


Don't all vehicles have a range rated in miles? Taking that information and divide it by 20 for mileage to find out how big the fuels tanks are. I say 20 only because I don't see them getting much better mileage for an off road vehicle. Yeah, we may have vehicles that can get 40 to 50 miles per gallon, but they also need to have paved roads (preferably smooth ones) to obtain that number. We also live in a country where paved roads are the norm.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:49 pm
  

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Sourcebook 1 pg. 27 lists a range of 30 to 60 MPG for robot systems but I am not sure if that is really applicable to regular vehicles like hover cycles or helicopters.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost of Fuel
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:56 pm
  

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I think Road Hogs has some rules.


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