Board index » Across the Megaverse® » G.M.s Forum

 


Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:28 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:26 pm
Posts: 79
I was wondering how everyone else works this out?

I personally was thinking that you needed a relative skill, like whittling, trap making, or something that gives the proper skill. I want the characters to have a skill that can sharpen a piece of wood enough to actually stab someone and it be able to pierce, hold, and not break. Any thoughts??

Thank you for any responses in advance!!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:36 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:42 pm
Posts: 734
Location: Tucson,Az
Comment: (Lt.Robert Walsh,Commanding Officer of Connaught Platoon,26th Royal Tyran Infantry,COG Operating Base Anvil Gate)
Perhaps a Lore skill role to know what TYPE of wood to use or what QUALITY of silver will effect the undead,a skill to make the stake? I would figure that would be in the Lore roll. IMHO.

_________________
""Fear is power. And he who knows how to feed,stoke and direct that fear is master of the frightened. A wolf to whom the sheep turn for protection"
- Emperor Karl Prosek,"The Black Vault"


Image


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:46 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:26 pm
Posts: 79
Thanks for the response! :)

I thought I should mention that I was NOT going to give a % roll, but I just, personally, thought they needed to take a skill if they were going to start pumping out weapons and stakes for ppl in the party.

**EDIT**


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:55 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:34 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: Carson City NV
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:15 am
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:23 am
Posts: 2023
Location: Houston, TX
Comment: "I will not be silenced. I will not submit. I will find the truth and shout it to the world. "
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.

Now arrows are another story. I require the carpentry skill. Some people have made the argument that you should be able to do it with WP Archery but I don't buy that. Others have said field armorer but that skill's entire description is high tech. Sculpting/whittling should do it too, IMHO.

_________________
Northern Gun Chief of Robotics
Designer of NG-X40 Storm Hammer Power Armor & NG-HC1000 Dragonfly Hover Chopper
Big game hunter, explorer extra ordinaire and expert on the Aegis Buffalo
Ultimate Insider for WB 32: Lemuria, WB 33: Northern Gun 1, WB 34: Northern Gun 2
Showdown Backer Robotech RPG Tactics
Benefactor Insider Rifts Bestiary: Vol 1, Rifts Bestiary: Vol 2


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:17 am
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:41 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada.
Comment: Just an old dude Gamer (GM and Player) who had the honor of gaming with several great groups of folks over the years.
Dinne wrote:
I was wondering how everyone else works this out?

I personally was thinking that you needed a relative skill, like whittling, trap making, or something that gives the proper skill. I want the characters to have a skill that can sharpen a piece of wood enough to actually stab someone and it be able to pierce, hold, and not break. Any thoughts??

Thank you for any responses in advance!!


For degree of leniency on skill usage may wish to check out World Book 19: Australia in the making your own Homemade armor skill usage section/description. Mostly for setting the tone or degree of skill leniency for a similar subject.

_________________
If something makes the RPG experience better that's great. If not don't use it.

If not overly informative hopefully it was at least mildly amusing. Munchkin Clown Away! <fwoosh... honk, honk>


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:17 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:26 pm
Posts: 79
Thanks for all the responses! :)

Thank you Random, that was very helpful.

I thought I should reiterate that I was not requiring a skill roll, again. Ty for the responses. :)


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:14 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Arkansas
Comment: Now go away, or I will be forced to taunt you a second time.
Require the skill for sharpening? No

Require roll for successfully not chopping off a finger? Yes

Give skill bonus for someone who may fail their not chop off finger roll? Yes

Give skill exp on successful skill roll if someone takes a skill? Yes

If someone actually takes the skill whittling why take away the one chance they have to actually use it with purpose other than sitting around a camp fire?

25 exp per roll isn't going to break your game, despite what most on this forum think of back flipping, and if ever a player says he's going to whittle a million wooden stakes at once let him complete one only to be suddenly attacked by more vampires than he has stakes.

_________________
I am and shall always be the GM who gives you what you want, only to make you wish you had wanted something else.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:04 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:24 pm
Posts: 3970
Comment: Official Member of the 'Transformers don't need Humans Club'
If I did use a skill...I'd have the option of Simple 'tent peg' Stakes (for those unskilled) and better higher quality Wooden stakes for the skilled (Such as Blade's wooden knives, whittling and weapons crafting skills since a weapons smith can make staffs and spears.)

the unskilled stake no combat bonus as a tent stake was not meant for a fight...Now blades wooden knives another story. they would master crafted with weapons bonuses to damage and to hit. I might even allow a snap off blade to make stake removal tougher or make them throwable like Blades Wooden Knife. A survivalist (aka Wilderness survival skill would be unskilled as he would shown how to make stakes not weapons.)

So short answer...a player takes a skill give him something...but let the unskilled guys still have the trusty old Wooden "tent peg"

_________________
taalismn wrote:
Rimmerdal wrote:
mmm Rifts street meat..


Flooper. Fried, broiled, or chipped.
It's like eating Chinese.
FLOOP! And you're hungry again.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:31 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15514
Location: Eastvale, calif
Dinne wrote:
I was wondering how everyone else works this out?

I personally was thinking that you needed a relative skill, like whittling, trap making, or something that gives the proper skill. I want the characters to have a skill that can sharpen a piece of wood enough to actually stab someone and it be able to pierce, hold, and not break. Any thoughts??

Thank you for any responses in advance!!

[my reaction]Oooh pleeeeeeseee. :roll: get real.[/my reaction]

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own opinions or house rules, they need to be listed/declareds as your own opinions or house rules.


My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:45 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:26 pm
Posts: 79
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Dinne wrote:
I was wondering how everyone else works this out?

I personally was thinking that you needed a relative skill, like whittling, trap making, or something that gives the proper skill. I want the characters to have a skill that can sharpen a piece of wood enough to actually stab someone and it be able to pierce, hold, and not break. Any thoughts??

Thank you for any responses in advance!!

[my reaction]Oooh pleeeeeeseee. :roll: get real.[/my reaction]



I can assume what your opinion is, but is there more to this than you saying that I'm dumb for thinking this?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:40 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15514
Location: Eastvale, calif
Dinne wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Dinne wrote:
I was wondering how everyone else works this out?

I personally was thinking that you needed a relative skill, like whittling, trap making, or something that gives the proper skill. I want the characters to have a skill that can sharpen a piece of wood enough to actually stab someone and it be able to pierce, hold, and not break. Any thoughts??

Thank you for any responses in advance!!

[my reaction]Oooh pleeeeeeseee. :roll: get real.[/my reaction]



I can assume what your opinion is, but is there more to this than you saying that I'm dumb for thinking this?

Ignorant maybe.
{In today's society/media there is such a enfaces on "skilled workers", and on that skill being thought of of being "this is the only thing that person knows" subtext. I can see how the basics can be lost in the details or forgotten by the majority of the population because in their lives they don't have to deal with things like "how to make this stick hold down this rope?" or like things the founding population of the USA would of known from early childhood cause their 'school' was helping out Pa and Ma with their chores.}

You were never were a 'boy scout' were you?
{towny and city folk might need a special skill to show they are fammiler around the ways of wood working. But those that live in the wilds would know how to make a stake.}

A blunt wooden rod can be counted as a stake for staking a vamp.
{Put enough force behind it, and sharpening does not matter.}

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own opinions or house rules, they need to be listed/declareds as your own opinions or house rules.


My Artwork


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:28 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:26 pm
Posts: 79
Thank you for your response. It was helpful. You are always very knowledgeable Kitty.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:33 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 231
Umm...

With an MDC tool this would be easy, no skills required, or lazer pen, etc.

Without one? Yes, it's not easy to do, skills required, Please everyone who doesn't believe me go out into the woods and make a Sharpened stick with your kitchen knife. Let me know how that turns out.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:04 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:56 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 231
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:07 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:06 pm
Posts: 282
Nomadic wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.


My grandpa could make the most elaborate wood carvings out of a piece of pine and a pocketknife. He had no formal training.

As someone who's had to sharpen pencils with a kitchen steak knife, I agree that no skill roll should be required. Unless you're being judged on prettiness vs. effectiveness.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:29 am
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 793
Comment: In sheer daemonic strangeness I am unparalleled
Nomadic wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.

A wooden stake should be 18-24 inches long, and should require a skill roll of some sort to make properly by hand, in the field. Wilderness Survival seems like a good possibility. If you had access to machine tools, like a sawmill, you could turn them on a lathe, or make flat stakes, like the marker stakes used in surveying, which, by the way, are usually oak.

_________________
Have you ever been thrown out of a Rifts game for being smarter than the Game Master?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:46 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 231
arouetta wrote:
Nomadic wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.


My grandpa could make the most elaborate wood carvings out of a piece of pine and a pocketknife. He had no formal training.

As someone who's had to sharpen pencils with a kitchen steak knife, I agree that no skill roll should be required. Unless you're being judged on prettiness vs. effectiveness.


Your grandpa didn't have formal training, he was self taunt, and I bet he didn't make an elaborate wood carving his first time out. This is what Secondary Skills are for.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:48 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 am
Posts: 231
Captain Shiva wrote:
Nomadic wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.

A wooden stake should be 18-24 inches long, and should require a skill roll of some sort to make properly by hand, in the field. Wilderness Survival seems like a good possibility. If you had access to machine tools, like a sawmill, you could turn them on a lathe, or make flat stakes, like the marker stakes used in surveying, which, by the way, are usually oak.


3-4-inch Diameter. is were I was going with that and I completely agree, or it takes quite a while with out the skill.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:52 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:13 am
Posts: 274
Location: The Roads of North America
being a wood worker and carpenter in R/L I would have to agree with the idea that some skill is needed. having a knife in your hand untrained is a good way to cut yourself. it is possible to practice and read books.... that would be a secondary skill in at least whittling.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:40 am
  

User avatar
Demon Lord Extraordinaire

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Posts: 6441
Location: Apocrypha
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.

Now arrows are another story. I require the carpentry skill. Some people have made the argument that you should be able to do it with WP Archery but I don't buy that. Others have said field armorer but that skill's entire description is high tech. Sculpting/whittling should do it too, IMHO.


Field Armorer skill from PFRPG allows you to make arrows with it.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:17 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Nomadic wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:
id say no, i dont think sharpening a stick should take a skill roll. its like making some one roll wilderness survival to set up a tent.

I'm with Zamion. I mean I am kind of a skill Nazi but sharpening a stick? Now if only certain types of wood effected vamps then it should absolutely take a lore skill roll, but since every type of wood does it.


Agreed.


I again think it comes to the tool you are using. Take a pocket knife to a 4 inch stick and let me know how that works out. Or even a combat knife. Now take a vibroblade and it's a hot knife thru warm butter.


I now have a pointy 4" stick.
Or did you mean 4" diameter?
Either way, not much skill there, only time. In most cases anyway.
I mean hell, I was making pointy sticks in Kindergarten, just by rubbing the end on concrete for a while.
If a person has NO tools, or something absurd (like nail clippers), and/or is short on time, then yeah... I guess I could see some kind of roll coming in handy.
But without some really extraordinary circumstances, it shouldn't need any skill or roll.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:49 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:20 pm
Posts: 4916
Location: Right behind you.
Comment: Don't waste your time gloating over a wounded enemy. Pull the damn trigger.
Agree, KC.

_________________
Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:15 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 2609
Location: fending the Demons off from the Calgary Rift
Comment: I'ma fight you, Steve!
There is no cause or reason to require a skill roll to make a wooden stake; it is literally a sharpened piece of wood. More than 10,000 years ago, our ancestors mastered the art of sharpening sticks with no formal training. I myself sharpened my first stick at a very young age. Again, with no formal training.

As to the use of kitchen knives to sharpen these sticks; first in depends on the knife. But that aside, Palladium doesn't really account for inappropriate tools for the job. So some tools will be better than others at the tasks presented. Like, I could use an adjustable wrench to peel off a tiny bolt, or I could use the appropriate wrench for the job and not worry about stripping it or taking for ever.

Just as it is with sharpening a stick; if one had a wood-working kit, well that person is certainly better off than the guy with only a parring knife.

Finally, the real reason that no skill roll should be involved is the common-sense one; first, if you think that a skill like carpentry is needed; go to a carpenter and ask him directly,"how do I sharpen a stick?" after the laughter or 'you're an idiot' glare, and the shame of knowing how truly dumb a question that was wears off, post your results here on the forums.

The answer to the question is it does not take any skill to sharpen a stick.

_________________
Thread Bandit
I didn't say "rooster"
My masters were full of cheesecake
The answer to all your "not realistic!" questions. FIREBALL!
I am a King.
I am a Renegade.
I am a Barbarian.
I cry the howl of chaos.
I am the dogs of war.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:41 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:19 am
Posts: 51
Location: In a drainage tunnel hiding from Death Cultists
Comment: I'll smite with my smiting stick!!!
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

_________________
Uhh... Dragging of flesh and bone followed by a moan? Let's go examine the creepy sound.
With an automatic shotgun of course.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:03 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 793
Comment: In sheer daemonic strangeness I am unparalleled
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

Having hammered a few wooden stakes into the ground during the years I spent in the construction industry, I know from personal experience it is not always easy. Rocky ground and even tree roots are a problem. I still maintain that it would take a skill roll to make a good quality wooden stake in the field. I have no way of knowing how tough a vampire's ribcage is, but if the vampire were fighting back, it would be very nearly impossible, I suspect. "Stake 'em while they sleep" is a better option. If at all possible, if you find a vampire in his coffin during the day, drag the coffin out into the sun, and smash it open with an axe.

_________________
Have you ever been thrown out of a Rifts game for being smarter than the Game Master?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:18 am
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:19 am
Posts: 51
Location: In a drainage tunnel hiding from Death Cultists
Comment: I'll smite with my smiting stick!!!
Captain Shiva wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

Having hammered a few wooden stakes into the ground during the years I spent in the construction industry, I know from personal experience it is not always easy. Rocky ground and even tree roots are a problem. I still maintain that it would take a skill roll to make a good quality wooden stake in the field. I have no way of knowing how tough a vampire's ribcage is, but if the vampire were fighting back, it would be very nearly impossible, I suspect. "Stake 'em while they sleep" is a better option. If at all possible, if you find a vampire in his coffin during the day, drag the coffin out into the sun, and smash it open with an axe.

Exactly my point. A good quality stake means a skill roll. Random kinda pointy soft wood not so much. Yet, working with hard wood which would have the strength to punch through the ribs, skill roll please.

_________________
Uhh... Dragging of flesh and bone followed by a moan? Let's go examine the creepy sound.
With an automatic shotgun of course.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:55 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 2609
Location: fending the Demons off from the Calgary Rift
Comment: I'ma fight you, Steve!
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Captain Shiva wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

Having hammered a few wooden stakes into the ground during the years I spent in the construction industry, I know from personal experience it is not always easy. Rocky ground and even tree roots are a problem. I still maintain that it would take a skill roll to make a good quality wooden stake in the field. I have no way of knowing how tough a vampire's ribcage is, but if the vampire were fighting back, it would be very nearly impossible, I suspect. "Stake 'em while they sleep" is a better option. If at all possible, if you find a vampire in his coffin during the day, drag the coffin out into the sun, and smash it open with an axe.

Exactly my point. A good quality stake means a skill roll. Random kinda pointy soft wood not so much. Yet, working with hard wood which would have the strength to punch through the ribs, skill roll please.

Gents, all you're describing here is how easy/hard it is to sharpen object X.
All that is required is the appropriate tools - the actual sharpening doesn't require years of training in order to put a point on something.

For example; graphite. It is a mineral which I have sharpened to a fine point many, many times. A mineral; it's not even wood!

But you know how I did it? With the appropriate tool; I have used a knife before, but the point is never even. Yet when I used a pencil sharpener (the appropriate tool), I came away with amazing results!
Again, no formal training.

It does not matter what the material is, all that matters is whether you have the appropriate tool for the job when attempting to put a point on something. I mean, soft or hard wood, even a mineral (my example) can be done with a blade, but a proper point is best achieved with the appropriate tool.

It's a pointy stick, guys. Not a masterwork of wood-carving.

_________________
Thread Bandit
I didn't say "rooster"
My masters were full of cheesecake
The answer to all your "not realistic!" questions. FIREBALL!
I am a King.
I am a Renegade.
I am a Barbarian.
I cry the howl of chaos.
I am the dogs of war.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:33 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Captain Shiva wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

Having hammered a few wooden stakes into the ground during the years I spent in the construction industry, I know from personal experience it is not always easy. Rocky ground and even tree roots are a problem. I still maintain that it would take a skill roll to make a good quality wooden stake in the field. I have no way of knowing how tough a vampire's ribcage is, but if the vampire were fighting back, it would be very nearly impossible, I suspect. "Stake 'em while they sleep" is a better option. If at all possible, if you find a vampire in his coffin during the day, drag the coffin out into the sun, and smash it open with an axe.

Exactly my point. A good quality stake means a skill roll. Random kinda pointy soft wood not so much. Yet, working with hard wood which would have the strength to punch through the ribs, skill roll please.


Unless they're using balsa or something, or a really thin stake, my money is on it working without much trouble.
Pick a random person you know that you consider to lack the "necessary" skills to make a proper pointy stick.
Give them a pocket knife and a stick, and tell them to make a stake.
Look at the stake.
Feel it.
Then ask yourself how much you'd like to have somebody stab you in the heart with it, as hard as they can.

If your answer is "tain't no thang!", then house-rule accordingly.
If your answer is "**** no!" then house-rule accordingly.

Personally, I have to go with the second, even if it's a soft wood like pine, or even poplar, I'm pretty confident that it would have a significant chance to do some serious damage to me, because even soft wood is usually a lot harder than human flesh.
And keep in mind, your chest would be 2x as resistant to that stake as a vampire's chest would be.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:22 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:58 pm
Posts: 4119
Location: Sioux Falls SD
Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
No skill is required to sharpen a stick to a point.

Making high quality stakes that you could sell to others for X credits each, skill roll is appropriate.

_________________
"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:16 pm
  

User avatar
Wanderer

Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:19 am
Posts: 51
Location: In a drainage tunnel hiding from Death Cultists
Comment: I'll smite with my smiting stick!!!
Dog_O_War wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Captain Shiva wrote:
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
While I am forced to agree that to make a pointy object for the most part (i.e. a tent stake) requires no skill, that is not always the case. Soft wood will be easier to sharpen then, I don't know HARD wood, which by the way won't crack open on a ribcage. Soft wood, would (pardon the pun). To make an EFFECTIVE weapon, dealing with a medium as unpredictable as wood, should require a skill roll. Giving a stick a point that may snap or break open on said ribs, grab a sharp solid blade (and yes, solid. TRUST ME!). And trust me, a figurine, and a weapon you shove through the ribcage of flailing being who can bench press a Ford are two completely different things folks.

Having hammered a few wooden stakes into the ground during the years I spent in the construction industry, I know from personal experience it is not always easy. Rocky ground and even tree roots are a problem. I still maintain that it would take a skill roll to make a good quality wooden stake in the field. I have no way of knowing how tough a vampire's ribcage is, but if the vampire were fighting back, it would be very nearly impossible, I suspect. "Stake 'em while they sleep" is a better option. If at all possible, if you find a vampire in his coffin during the day, drag the coffin out into the sun, and smash it open with an axe.

Exactly my point. A good quality stake means a skill roll. Random kinda pointy soft wood not so much. Yet, working with hard wood which would have the strength to punch through the ribs, skill roll please.

Gents, all you're describing here is how easy/hard it is to sharpen object X.
All that is required is the appropriate tools - the actual sharpening doesn't require years of training in order to put a point on something.

For example; graphite. It is a mineral which I have sharpened to a fine point many, many times. A mineral; it's not even wood!

But you know how I did it? With the appropriate tool; I have used a knife before, but the point is never even. Yet when I used a pencil sharpener (the appropriate tool), I came away with amazing results!
Again, no formal training.

It does not matter what the material is, all that matters is whether you have the appropriate tool for the job when attempting to put a point on something. I mean, soft or hard wood, even a mineral (my example) can be done with a blade, but a proper point is best achieved with the appropriate tool.

It's a pointy stick, guys. Not a masterwork of wood-carving.

Not to be a dick, but the "graphite" you sharpen is mainly clay, and graphite as a whole is soft. And yes a pointy stick is a pointy stick, but I don't want pointy stick one when I be killing the vampire, I want a tool made and crafted for the job. With the diameter and weight, with the proper length to be balanced and all that jazz. Hence, I want a WEAPON, not a tree branch.
And KC, unless I missed or misread the OPs meaning (good chance seeing as I do adore over complicating ****) its to make a weapon over altered debris.

_________________
Uhh... Dragging of flesh and bone followed by a moan? Let's go examine the creepy sound.
With an automatic shotgun of course.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:00 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 2609
Location: fending the Demons off from the Calgary Rift
Comment: I'ma fight you, Steve!
Deadboy Dakka wrote:
Not to be a dick, but the "graphite" you sharpen is mainly clay, and graphite as a whole is soft.

Your rebuke does not add weight to your position; it only adds to mine. You've basically just said that I, a person with no formal training, can sharpen clay.


Deadboy Dakka wrote:
And yes a pointy stick is a pointy stick, but I don't want pointy stick one when I be killing the vampire, I want a tool made and crafted for the job. With the diameter and weight, with the proper length to be balanced and all that jazz. Hence, I want a WEAPON, not a tree branch.
And KC, unless I missed or misread the OPs meaning (good chance seeing as I do adore over complicating ****) its to make a weapon over altered debris.

You make it sound like there is such a thing as a "deluxe stake".
Okay then; you want a weapon; does that require woodcarving, the skill in which to make furniture and the like, or weaponsmithing, the skill in which to make weapons and the like?

More pointedly, where do wooden stakes appear in the gear section?
Have you ever heard of "combat stakes"?
Are you often sold "vampire-killing stakes" from shady vendors in the alleys and backstreets of towns near the Mexican border, who claim that "regular stakes" just aren't as good as the wears they peddle?

Or maybe a stake is just a stake.

_________________
Thread Bandit
I didn't say "rooster"
My masters were full of cheesecake
The answer to all your "not realistic!" questions. FIREBALL!
I am a King.
I am a Renegade.
I am a Barbarian.
I cry the howl of chaos.
I am the dogs of war.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:14 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
As Dog Of War says.
If the question is about some kind of weaponized wooden stake that is specifically designed for combat in such a way that it's significantly superior to an ordinary wooden stake, then I'm curious where such schmancy sticks can be found in either the game books or in human history.
There are all manner of weapons that might require skill to make, and that would fall under the overall category of "pointy sticks," but they all have names like "pike," "javelin," "arrow," etc.
I've never heard of a "Combat Stake" or anything like that.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:57 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:15 pm
Posts: 1391
Location: Ontario, Canada
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I've never heard of a "Combat Stake" or anything like that.


I think in prison they call that a 'Shiv' or a 'Shank'. Not always made of wood, I know, but the can be made out of wood. Or a magazine. Or Soap. Or Toilet Paper.

All are often improvised, without proper tools.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:03 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:58 pm
Posts: 4119
Location: Sioux Falls SD
Comment: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
~George Carlin
Vampire shiv =/= check
Fancy vampire stake to sell= check

Check!

_________________
"We live in a world where people use severed plant genitals to express affection.
Rifts is really not much weirder than that." ~~Killer Cyborg

"If we let technical problems scare us away from doing anything, humanity would still be in the trees flinging poo at each other."~~Killer Cyborg

"Everything that breeds is a threat."~~Killer Cyborg


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:28 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
13eowulf wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I've never heard of a "Combat Stake" or anything like that.


I think in prison they call that a 'Shiv' or a 'Shank'. Not always made of wood, I know, but the can be made out of wood. Or a magazine. Or Soap. Or Toilet Paper.

All are often improvised, without proper tools.


None of them are specially balanced or otherwise combat-designed.
They're all just pointy and/or sharp stuff.
As you say, improvised stuff without needing proper tools.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:13 am
  

User avatar
Hero

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 1494
Location: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft & Wizardry
Comment: You ought to be careful. People will think you're....up....to something.
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:46 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Severus Snape wrote:
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


uh...
1) in palladium any wood (except for the spell iron wood) counts as 'wood' for staking
2) this was asking about making, not use (that would be WP: knife/sword/stake/improvise/whatever)

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:23 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 9303
eliakon wrote:
Severus Snape wrote:
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


uh...
1) in palladium any wood (except for the spell iron wood) counts as 'wood' for staking
2) this was asking about making, not use (that would be WP: knife/sword/stake/improvise/whatever)


I imagine by 'right kind of wood' he means 'can handle being stabbed into someone in order to puncture their chest and into their heart'. Balsa wood would technically qualify as wood to stake a vampire but you're really unlikely to get it to handle being stabbed into someone to even break skin.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:51 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 28813
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Short of balsa, though, there aren't many woods that would have any difficulty.
So that part's pretty easy.

_________________
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:32 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 793
Comment: In sheer daemonic strangeness I am unparalleled
eliakon wrote:
Severus Snape wrote:
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


uh...
1) in palladium any wood (except for the spell iron wood) counts as 'wood' for staking
2) this was asking about making, not use (that would be WP: knife/sword/stake/improvise/whatever)

Why would wood affected by the "Ironwood" spell not count as wood? According to the spell description, all it does is make SDC wood into MDC wood. No other properties are changed; MDC vampire stakes, while PPE-intensive, would be very nice to have, due to increased durability. I have been reading about steeltree wood(from Dinosaur Swamp,) and considering the possibilities of steeltree stakes, especially mixed with silver.

_________________
Have you ever been thrown out of a Rifts game for being smarter than the Game Master?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:32 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 9303
Captain Shiva wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Severus Snape wrote:
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


uh...
1) in palladium any wood (except for the spell iron wood) counts as 'wood' for staking
2) this was asking about making, not use (that would be WP: knife/sword/stake/improvise/whatever)

Why would wood affected by the "Ironwood" spell not count as wood? According to the spell description, all it does is make SDC wood into MDC wood. No other properties are changed; MDC vampire stakes, while PPE-intensive, would be very nice to have, due to increased durability. I have been reading about steeltree wood(from Dinosaur Swamp,) and considering the possibilities of steeltree stakes, especially mixed with silver.


They apparently nerfed the spell in the revised Vampire Kingdom so as to make things more difficult for vampire victims to defend themselves and take out vampires than it already was by saying the spell makes wood not-wood for some ridiculous reason. So all a vampire would need is a simple bit of MDC covering over the chest and *poof* immune to being staked since no SDC stake can penetrate that and outside of a few rare natural MDC woods that the GM can easily keep from the PC they can't Ironwood the SDC wood so it can be MDC and penetrate that MDC chest-shield.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:44 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 793
Comment: In sheer daemonic strangeness I am unparalleled
Nightmask wrote:
Captain Shiva wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Severus Snape wrote:
Anyone can sharpen a stick. Hell, you can probably just break a leg off a table or chair and it will have a pointy end to stick something with.

However, just being able to sharpen said stick doesn't make it the right kind of wood, nor does it mean you have the proficiency to be stabbing a vampire with it.


uh...
1) in palladium any wood (except for the spell iron wood) counts as 'wood' for staking
2) this was asking about making, not use (that would be WP: knife/sword/stake/improvise/whatever)

Why would wood affected by the "Ironwood" spell not count as wood? According to the spell description, all it does is make SDC wood into MDC wood. No other properties are changed; MDC vampire stakes, while PPE-intensive, would be very nice to have, due to increased durability. I have been reading about steeltree wood(from Dinosaur Swamp,) and considering the possibilities of steeltree stakes, especially mixed with silver.


They apparently nerfed the spell in the revised Vampire Kingdom so as to make things more difficult for vampire victims to defend themselves and take out vampires than it already was by saying the spell makes wood not-wood for some ridiculous reason. So all a vampire would need is a simple bit of MDC covering over the chest and *poof* immune to being staked since no SDC stake can penetrate that and outside of a few rare natural MDC woods that the GM can easily keep from the PC they can't Ironwood the SDC wood so it can be MDC and penetrate that MDC chest-shield.

Since It would take 50 PPE to make a single wooden stake an MDC object, if I were GM, I would ignore the nerfing.

_________________
Have you ever been thrown out of a Rifts game for being smarter than the Game Master?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:22 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:41 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada.
Comment: Just an old dude Gamer (GM and Player) who had the honor of gaming with several great groups of folks over the years.
There are a couple basic common sense ways to go:

1) Anyone can make a sharpened stick. However it is either single use, or breaks on a natural 1.
2) Anyone can make a re-usable sharpened stick if they have Field Armorer or Weapons Engineer or Whittling or similar relevant skill. See homemade armor Australia Book and so forth for similar principles.

Ultimately whatever works for the setting/campaign/group and ideally makes some basic common sense.

_________________
If something makes the RPG experience better that's great. If not don't use it.

If not overly informative hopefully it was at least mildly amusing. Munchkin Clown Away! <fwoosh... honk, honk>


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:01 pm
  

User avatar
Hero

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:16 pm
Posts: 839
Location: Placerville, CA
Comment: Free Missouri, stand up to Apartheid everywhere.
OMG...

** Looks for the candid camera **

Ok, if this is real, I think anyone can sharpen a stick and stab it into an unmoving vampire.

To get the vampire into an unmoving state, give it silver poisoning, hose it down with H2O, etc.

Better yet, shoot the vampire with a wooden arrow through the heart, voila, task accomplished... and yes, that is a hard shot to make :)


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group