Feeling a little bummed

[arouetta]

Today my gaming group, which had been on life support, totally died.

A few months ago, I had two less than stellar sessions. Two days before the next session, after I had sat down, figured out the problems, and reworked everything to grab its original sparkle, my husband told me that the players had been talking, I would not be GMing the next game, I needed time to work on my game, and someone else, our roommate, would try GMing instead. I wasn't happy, but I put on my best "game face" because the decision had been made and implemented. This had obviously been planned in advance, as the work she had put into her opening session would have taken longer than 2 days.

She and I had been switching back and forth every month. We were players in each other's games, my husband was in both, and so were three other friends. Two of those people missed half the sessions (I went back through my experience charts, and one or both were literally at only 9 out of 18 games), and when they were here, their small, poorly disciplined children were very disruptive. We both worked the plot around them the best we could, and when they weren't here, three players were enough.

Then the other friend got a real job and stopped coming. And we had to cancel a game due to not enough players. So we started looking for more players. We found one, which helped us avoid canceling a second game in a row. But he kept saying he didn't think he could attend for more than a month. I found another one, but he will depend on me for a ride, which isn't a big problem as he is a friend of my daughter.

We had once talked about possibly gaming at the other couple's home in the hopes that the children would be less disruptive there. At the time, I thought it was worth trying, and I thought I could get a ride from my husband, as I have a big truck that eats gas, and it would literally cost $30 for the trip, and he has a fuel efficient car that we and the other GM could fit in. But it will not fit 5 people (my daughter and her friend), so I would have to drive separate if I attended now.

This week it was proposed, and the other GM accepted, even after I said I could no longer go. When I was told that I had to give up half the gaming time on a two day notice, I accomodated. When everyone agreed the other couple's children were a problem, but when push came to shove and I was told to just put up with it, I accomodated. When I said I had an issue with people that only show up half the time, I was told there'd be too much drama if I dropped them entirely, and I accomodated. So my "reward" is to be dropped since I'm broke and I'm giving a ride to someone else that can't travel over an hour away? I'm through accomodating.

And that is pretty much what I said in response to the decision to move the game. And the other GM had the audacity to say that she never told my husband that I needed to work on my game and she was told that I was favorable to the idea of splitting the GMing and that if I had a problem with it, I should have said something a long time ago so it could have been resolved. Really? Who's more likely to lie, my husband or her?

So, like that, it died. She is moving her GMing day, I have Wednesdays all to myself. Because she will have only one day a week that she can dedicate to gaming, she will be leaving my game. I am dropping the other couple with the disruptive children. And since I have spent the last week going to the gaming shop asking people to join, I've already lined up more players.

Still, we were all friends outside the game, so I'm feeling a little bummed. Things will change, I know they will. It's going to be ugly. Plus, now I have to perform in front of strangers. I've only done that once, at a convention. I can't have rough days now, every session has to be spectacular and better than the last. So the pressure is on.

Anyone else have a gaming group that went belly up? How do you rebuild and regroup?

[BuzzardB]

"I can't have rough days now, every session has to be spectacular and better than the last."

Naw, don't go into it thinking that. Everyone who is a PnP Gamer knows GM's can have rough nights. Its just part of gaming.

[Killer Cyborg]

I had a gaming group that went belly-up.

Never rebuilt.

Joined a different group for a few years, and played D&D, but got tired of it.

[arouetta]

I'm feeling more enthused. I met with one of the new players and ran an intro game, he's a bit more hack and slash than I like, but I threw a mage at him and my daughter, and they were forced to think their way through. (He was surprised a first level mage could do what was done, and said he hates the magic system ) Next week I'm promised 3 more players, maybe 4. My husband knows the system, it will be new to everyone else, but I think they'll catch on fast. So here's hoping.

[CyCo]

Sadly it happens.

I've been is about 8 or 9 groups. As some of the other players moved with me (or me with them) to other groups, lines (groups) tend to blur. That and I've been gaming over half my life (28 years), some of the memory banks are a little fuzzy. lol

Most simply disbanded, one was more explosive. Last real group I was in really ended about 6 years ago. We've struggled on, but I now haven't gamed for several months, when we'd normally game most weekends. Our main GM ended up in an industry which moves him around the world, mostly in the US, but back here in Oz and elsewhere as well. That was the start of the 'fall'. Didn't help when one of a job at a call center taking calls for the police, and another dropped the bombshell that he was moving to Japan with his g/f (who is Japanese) with less than a months notice. That kinda killed it. It was down to four of us, now we're two. I suggested to my fellow survivor that we just go to boardgames until we gain new blood, but he said he's gone off of boardgames. I said it's either that or no gaming. So no gaming it is.

One trend that I've noticed is that if I don't organize things, things don't happen. I also work shift work, and for the weekends where I work, I suggested the rest of them run/play another game. Never happened. When they talk about getting new blood, if I don't do the scouting/headhunting, it never happens. It got a bit old. Even when I wasn't running a game. Eventually I got it through to them that if you want to run a game, you can organize it. Eventually it worked. Doesn't work when you want new blood though it seems. And sadly, more of the gamers around here are either too young and munchkins, or only play WH40K/wargames, or Magic/card games.

So for the moment, I've let it slide. Eventually I'll go on another recruiting drive and form up another group. It helped that 5 of us moved through 3 or 4 versions of our 'group', so at the worst we had enough for a game. It was better when we had a couple more. Now I'll need to build up a new 'core group'.

[Braden Campbell]

Groups come and go as life allows.

[arthurfallz]

Scheduling games is the death of every game. My own group is crumbling because I've moved towns (I'm the GM), and we're stuck on a bad time slot. I'm thinking of just cancelling with the difficult schedule players, as much as I love them, because...

Well, damn, it makes everything super hard to constantly juggle time slots. As is, I'm going to be doing it over the net, which I hate. So now I'm looking for people closer to game with, or I'll have to go to play by post.

[The Beast]

All of my players eventually pack up for the same reason: my excessive use of the word "throbbing". Clearly, some do not care for it.

My group's solution would be to hit you until you stopped using it.

[sirkermittsg]

that is why I moved to online gaming via the palladium chat rooms. driving has gotten SOO expensive and it is difficult to get everyone to one place at one time. there are several advantages to online:

1. players don't have to deal with everyone's kids, s/o's, family, what ever. Distractions are for ONLY that player as opposed to the entire group.
2. players don't get judged by RL at all cause no one sees "them". online reduces us to just what we type. I know some one that has difficulties walking. I know some one else that is struggling to keep the lights on at her house. I know some one else that says she and her husband are quite wealthy actually... and ultimately we all can play in the same game with no fear of things like racial, gender, or class bias.
3. players don't have to be local. You can be playing with some one from another city, another state/province or even another country quite easily.
4. nearly every player in the game is a huge fan of Palladium and as such we don't have to share lots of books, and we don't have to teach each other the gaming system before we play.

[JTwig]

Today my gaming group, which had been on life support, totally died.

A few months ago, I had two less than stellar sessions. Two days before the next session, after I had sat down, figured out the problems, and reworked everything to grab its original sparkle, my husband told me that the players had been talking, I would not be GMing the next game, I needed time to work on my game, and someone else, our roommate, would try GMing instead. I wasn't happy, but I put on my best "game face" because the decision had been made and implemented. This had obviously been planned in advance, as the work she had put into her opening session would have taken longer than 2 days.

She and I had been switching back and forth every month. We were players in each other's games, my husband was in both, and so were three other friends. Two of those people missed half the sessions (I went back through my experience charts, and one or both were literally at only 9 out of 18 games), and when they were here, their small, poorly disciplined children were very disruptive. We both worked the plot around them the best we could, and when they weren't here, three players were enough.

Then the other friend got a real job and stopped coming. And we had to cancel a game due to not enough players. So we started looking for more players. We found one, which helped us avoid canceling a second game in a row. But he kept saying he didn't think he could attend for more than a month. I found another one, but he will depend on me for a ride, which isn't a big problem as he is a friend of my daughter.

We had once talked about possibly gaming at the other couple's home in the hopes that the children would be less disruptive there. At the time, I thought it was worth trying, and I thought I could get a ride from my husband, as I have a big truck that eats gas, and it would literally cost $30 for the trip, and he has a fuel efficient car that we and the other GM could fit in. But it will not fit 5 people (my daughter and her friend), so I would have to drive separate if I attended now.

This week it was proposed, and the other GM accepted, even after I said I could no longer go. When I was told that I had to give up half the gaming time on a two day notice, I accomodated. When everyone agreed the other couple's children were a problem, but when push came to shove and I was told to just put up with it, I accomodated. When I said I had an issue with people that only show up half the time, I was told there'd be too much drama if I dropped them entirely, and I accomodated. So my "reward" is to be dropped since I'm broke and I'm giving a ride to someone else that can't travel over an hour away? I'm through accomodating.

And that is pretty much what I said in response to the decision to move the game. And the other GM had the audacity to say that she never told my husband that I needed to work on my game and she was told that I was favorable to the idea of splitting the GMing and that if I had a problem with it, I should have said something a long time ago so it could have been resolved. Really? Who's more likely to lie, my husband or her?

So, like that, it died. She is moving her GMing day, I have Wednesdays all to myself. Because she will have only one day a week that she can dedicate to gaming, she will be leaving my game. I am dropping the other couple with the disruptive children. And since I have spent the last week going to the gaming shop asking people to join, I've already lined up more players.

Still, we were all friends outside the game, so I'm feeling a little bummed. Things will change, I know they will. It's going to be ugly. Plus, now I have to perform in front of strangers. I've only done that once, at a convention. I can't have rough days now, every session has to be spectacular and better than the last. So the pressure is on.

Anyone else have a gaming group that went belly up? How do you rebuild and regroup?

Thats kind of lame that they ditched you. I understand scheduling can get difficult; its the primary reason I haven't played in nearly a decade. Is your husband still attending the other game? My wife and I would be upset with the other if they went without us. Not out of hurt feelings towards the group, but for the simple fact that we were not the priority when it came to car pooling over there.

[arouetta]

Thats kind of lame that they ditched you. I understand scheduling can get difficult; its the primary reason I haven't played in nearly a decade. Is your husband still attending the other game? My wife and I would be upset with the other if they went without us. Not out of hurt feelings towards the group, but for the simple fact that we were not the priority when it came to car pooling over there.

The other GM never started another game. I talked with her directly and again I got a conflicting story - she claimed she thought I was dropping her too. Again, who's more likely to lie to me, my husband or someone else? She's in my game, but I'm having problems lining up more than just my daughter's friend. But it's rebuilding, slowly.

[Cinos]

and if i was a gm i'd begin making you act out your sillier ideas on purpose.

I think you would rapidly regret this choice.

[JTwig]

All of my players eventually pack up for the same reason: my excessive use of the word "throbbing". Clearly, some do not care for it.

My past groups woul only have had a problem with it if you used visual aids.

[Damian Magecraft]

Scheduling games is the death of every game. My own group is crumbling because I've moved towns (I'm the GM), and we're stuck on a bad time slot. I'm thinking of just cancelling with the difficult schedule players, as much as I love them, because...

Well, damn, it makes everything super hard to constantly juggle time slots. As is, I'm going to be doing it over the net, which I hate. So now I'm looking for people closer to game with, or I'll have to go to play by post.

Look into Skype and Google+ hangouts as an alternative.

[ArmySGT.]

Your marriage has more problems then your hobby gaming......

Look into that first.

[Akashic Soldier]

I have found SKYPE is the key to running successful games. It takes some getting used to an a unified dice website with a shared room like http://www.rolz.org but it offers a number of advantages that would solve your problem.

#1. Mute. It sounds silly but BLAMO mute, no more noisy kids.
#2. No transportation. You won't need to pay for fuel.
#3. Wear what you want. It sounds silly, but it doesn't matter if you have had a hectic week and have not had an opportunity to clean or if there is nowhere for your players to park their butts that doesn't matter with a skype game. Plus, its free.

Plus, you can game with players from all over the world. The problem is MOST of the online gamers you will meet are problem players and losers who have been rejected by other groups. You will need to learn how to screen and make sure you don't get stuck with dunces. Thankfully, with a couple of clicks you can make a problem player go away forever. No more of that awkward sitting around at the table after you ask them to leave when they're being disruptive.

As for the death of your game, I am genuinely sorry. Its hard to watch a game die, but there is always more possibilities awaiting for you. Maybe this is exactly what you needed, a fresh start, ya know?

Let me know how things go. It is pretty simple to get set up. If it is you and your husband you will need a multidirectional mic (though most cam mics work) or two lap tops (lap top and a PC, etc). Its pretty each and cheap. If you are having a hard time let me know and I will help walk ya through it. With technically difficulties, getting started that first time rarely takes longer than 30 minutes.

As for how I tebuilt, I just came up with a new concept, reorganized, and cut out the problem players like they were a cancer until I got something that worked. Took me about three attempts, but I eventually got it right.

[Damian Magecraft]

The problem is MOST of the online gamers you will meet are problem players and losers who have been rejected by other groups. You will need to learn how to screen and make sure you don't get stuck with dunces. Thankfully, with a couple of clicks you can make a problem player go away forever. No more of that awkward sitting around at the table after you ask them to leave when they're being disruptive.

As for how I tebuilt, I just came up with a new concept, reorganized, and cut out the problem players like they were a cancer until I got something that worked. Took me about three attempts, but I eventually got it right.

I agreed with everything you said until these two points...
Most Players online are not problem players in fact as you pointed out earlier in your own post they have other valid reasons to be playing online. (Inability to travel, Kids, etc...)
The second part of your post I am addressing points to either you having bad luck or the players were not the problem.

[calto40k]

The problem is MOST of the online gamers you will meet are problem players and losers who have been rejected by other groups. You will need to learn how to screen and make sure you don't get stuck with dunces. Thankfully, with a couple of clicks you can make a problem player go away forever. No more of that awkward sitting around at the table after you ask them to leave when they're being disruptive.

As for how I tebuilt, I just came up with a new concept, reorganized, and cut out the problem players like they were a cancer until I got something that worked. Took me about three attempts, but I eventually got it right.

I agreed with everything you said until these two points...
Most Players online are not problem players in fact as you pointed out earlier in your own post they have other valid reasons to be playing online. (Inability to travel, Kids, etc...)
The second part of your post I am addressing points to either you having bad luck or the players were not the problem.

Funny you bring up the way you tried to whine me out of Don's group. Keep Flame baiting troll. Damian how is your day going by the way hope to see you at the game tonight.

Warning: "Keep Flame baiting troll." Is a violation of forum rules regarding. Flaming, Trolling and Harassment.

[calto40k]

Google Hangout is free as well and you can use Roll20 through an app on it.

[Damian Magecraft]

I find no point at all to skype... it's just as useless or useful as a google hangout..
IRC is free and I already have all the tools I need on it!

Both Skype and g+ hangouts have the tools "required" and are not as unfriendly to the tech deficient.

[calto40k]

I find no point at all to skype... it's just as useless or useful as a google hangout..
IRC is free and I already have all the tools I need on it!

Both Skype and g+ hangouts have the tools "required" and are not as unfriendly to the tech deficient.

Agreed

[Rockwolf66]

Myself and another person were kicked out of a game being ran by a railroading cryptic. We then got together with a few of our online friends via OpenRPG and we ended up playing a 2 1/2 year rifts campaign and we are starting a Palladium Fantasy Campaign.

Sometimes groups just fall apart and sometimes the group that forms in the aftermath is better than the one that fell apart.

[The Beast]

I find no point at all to skype... it's just as useless or useful as a google hangout..
IRC is free and I already have all the tools I need on it!

What's IRC?

[GreatArelius1]

IRC is a chat program. You have manually find the server and room of where you want to be, rather than being invited to a group or just a click of a link. Reason why I gave it up.

I use roll20 and skype regularly now for my online gaming needs, I was using openrpg but roll20 is better. Palladium games a few over on roll20 but there is a little bit of everything really.

As for finding players/group; its a hit or miss online. You just never know.

[eoptap]

Online gaming is a great avenue you just need to not let one or two people run the night. I am in a few games I have a hard time wanting to be in. I enjoy them as people but as gamers a few of them like to take the spotlight and go off topic for hours. Most gamers that I have gamed with have this problem. ADD/ADHD comes with the territory. I have only had problems with one group. that was a live game one player was allowed to do what ever they wanted, and I usually ended up being treated like crap by this player, bc I did not bow to his every whim. Heck I even tried to work it out out of game not on game time. The guy was a real jerk when it came to this. Nice guy outside of gaming but no way I will ever game with him unless he learns to control himself. I got booted from that game for trying to resolve the problem out of game. Apparently the guy can do no wrong, and I was at fault for having free will, and wanting to find out what his deal was(had to travel a few hours to game). That is the only thing I do not tolerate any longer. Feel lucky you have a local group even if it is small the only thing I can find is a crappy game called 4.0 locally. Not enough people locally even knows what Rifts is. Ran into someone who has gamed for 15 years, and has never heard of the system.

[Akashic Soldier]

either you having bad luck

It COULD have been bad luck but I've had sit in with other online GMs who have expressed the same frustration I had.

or the players were not the problem.

I have been told that "you are a freaking great G.M." enough that I am confident in my Game Mastering. Heck, recently I even had a small group of players come to me out of nowhere and ask me to run a game so I must be doing something right. The only other factor (other than disruptive/selfish players) that has played a part is I've had players I've had to boot because they've gone to sleep during the game on a regular basis (time difference).

What I have found with a lot of online gamers, is that I will put in a bunch of work planning out a campaign. I'll say "It is going to be an espionage-based games, so I want you to make spy-type characters or intelligence officers who are from Rifts Earth" and they will send me Cosmo Knights, Prometheans, Apochs, or (as is the most often the case) Megaheroes from Heroes Unlimited; things that have nothing at all to do with the themes I've mentioned.

Meaning I am left with one of three options:
1. Completely scrapping my game, plot, and the NPCs/Antagonists I have typically spent 2-3 hours on.
2. Disallowing them to play.
3. Asking them to remake a character in accordance with my guidelines; which are always very clear.

Consequently, if I choose:
1. My players that DID spend time following the guidelines for character generation miss out.
If I choose:
2. I am often told to change my concept for the entire game or called names/abused (I've been called all sorts of things for just saying "I am sorry, I don't think this game is for you.").
Or of course trusty ole...
3. Which pretty much results in the same thing as number 2.

Leaving me with the personal opinion (which I reiterate is shared by at least three of the people who I am actually friends with on Facebook who run an online game) that most of the players you will pick up online are to quote one "Self entitled little twinks that are just out to PVP or play out ****** up rape fantasies" which frankly, is what I'd call a problem player.

I mean, there is only so many times you can laugh about someone's character shoving something up someone else's ass before it stops being funny and starts being uncomfortable and awkward for everyone involved. Then, as G.M. its your (or my or whoever is running the game) that gets the other players sending them PMs or private text messages saying "I think I am going to drop out" and "I think X is a funny guy BUT..." and then its up to you as the G.M. to have to deal with all that political garbage when its a million times easier to just say "Sorry man, not the group for you" and deal with the fact that they'll **** and moan about it without end and hound you until doomsday for it.

As for Calto's accusations and calling me a troll, I have reported the post. However, if I recall correctly you left after a couple of the other players confided in me that you were attempting to kill my character because of your damaged ego and they didn't want my character to die (because you were acting like a child). I even sucked it up and agreed to remain in the group after you started spreading lies and B.S. about me the first time but you could not leave well enough alone.

That said, as you can see Arouetta there are a lot of troubled people on the internet with nothing better to do than try to upset people and take cheap shots. I hope you will have (assuming you choose this course) have better luck than I have. And like I said before, if you need any help getting set up just let me know and I'll see what I can do. Its pretty easy though, you shouldn't have a problem.

And again, I am sorry that your game ended. Did you at least get to tie up any loose plot holes or did it all just sort of humph into a pile because of coordination and schedule problem?

[Damian Magecraft]

either you having bad luck

It COULD have been bad luck but I've had sit in with other online GMs who have expressed the same frustration I had.

or the players were not the problem.

I have been told that "you are a freaking great G.M." enough that I am confident in my Game Mastering. Heck, recently I even had a small group of players come to me out of nowhere and ask me to run a game so I must be doing something right. The only other factor (other than disruptive/selfish players) that has played a part is I've had players I've had to boot because they've gone to sleep during the game on a regular basis (time difference).

What I have found with a lot of online gamers, is that I will put in a bunch of work planning out a campaign. I'll say "It is going to be an espionage-based games, so I want you to make spy-type characters or intelligence officers who are from Rifts Earth" and they will send me Cosmo Knights, Prometheans, Apochs, or (as is the most often the case) Megaheroes from Heroes Unlimited; things that have nothing at all to do with the themes I've mentioned.

Meaning I am left with one of three options:
1. Completely scrapping my game, plot, and the NPCs/Antagonists I have typically spent 2-3 hours on.
2. Disallowing them to play.
3. Asking them to remake a character in accordance with my guidelines; which are always very clear.

Consequently, if I choose:
1. My players that DID spend time following the guidelines for character generation miss out.
If I choose:
2. I am often told to change my concept for the entire game or called names/abused (I've been called all sorts of things for just saying "I am sorry, I don't think this game is for you.").
Or of course trusty ole...
3. Which pretty much results in the same thing as number 2.

Leaving me with the personal opinion (which I reiterate is shared by at least three of the people who I am actually friends with on Facebook who run an online game) that most of the players you will pick up online are to quote one "Self entitled little twinks that are just out to PVP or play out ****** up rape fantasies" which frankly, is what I'd call a problem player.

I mean, there is only so many times you can laugh about someone's character shoving something up someone else's ass before it stops being funny and starts being uncomfortable and awkward for everyone involved. Then, as G.M. its your (or my or whoever is running the game) that gets the other players sending them PMs or private text messages saying "I think I am going to drop out" and "I think X is a funny guy BUT..." and then its up to you as the G.M. to have to deal with all that political garbage when its a million times easier to just say "Sorry man, not the group for you" and deal with the fact that they'll **** and moan about it without end and hound you until doomsday for it.

Funny that...
I have been GMing online for close 15 years now and have only ever encountered 2 (count them two) Players like those you have described (one of each).
Most players online have transportation/Travel restrictions (fuel prices too high, kids, etc...). I have one group that consists of most of my old group from 1977 we are now scattered all over the globe obviously we cant just all hop into our cars and drive to the local FLGS to game.
Again either you are having bad luck or its something else entirely.
Also: comments of being a great GM are worthless its the ones that call you horrible that really tell you what type of GM you are. I have accumulated every "bad" GM Appellation you can imagine (and ones you probably never heard before.) I have also been called one amazing GM who can really make the worlds come alive. I treasure the "you sick twisted evil ****" more mainly because those are the ones that just keep coming back for more each week.

[Akashic Soldier]

Funny that...

Not really, its pretty much a common consensus from every other G.M. that I've spoken to that runs online games except for you and the others that have expressed an opposing opinion in this thread already. However, I know you are not going to take my word on it so I have just finishing shooting e-mails/private messages to a few other G.M.s I know and hopefully they will wade in on the topic so you can see I'm not trying to be a douchebag.

I have been GMing online for close 15 years now and have only ever encountered 2 (count them two) Players like those you have described (one of each).

I'd call you the lucky one then.

Most players online have transportation/Travel restrictions (fuel prices too high, kids, etc...). I have one group that consists of most of my old group from 1977 we are now scattered all over the globe obviously we cant just all hop into our cars and drive to the local FLGS to game.

Awesome!

Again either you are having bad luck or its something else entirely.

As I mentioned in my first post, I had to "reboot" three times so I could build a game that would last more that one story arc (3 to 5 games) because certain people I allowed into the game would make my other players uncomfortable with their behavior (No, not just one or two "wussie players"). At one time I had five of my eight players coming to me expressing that a certain players anti-social behavior was ruining the game for them and they were considering leaving because of it.

Also: comments of being a great GM are worthless its the ones that call you horrible that really tell you what type of GM you are.

Why do you have to assume the negative? What is it about the human race that makes people want to believe the terrible things rather than getting to know someone, knowing their abilities, or capabilities? Why is it that rather than accepting that I could run a game that makes people happy and is fun and enjoyable such an impossible concept? What? A few venomous rumors from people that hate me? My personality? What?

Why is it that these assumptions are made, and more to the point, why is they are believed when the sources for these observations are obviously not credible or strongly bias against me?

Those questions are all rhetoric, but I felt worth mentioning. Just something to think about.

I have accumulated every "bad" GM Appellation you can imagine (and ones you probably never heard before.) I have also been called one amazing GM who can really make the worlds come alive. I treasure the "you sick twisted evil ****" more mainly because those are the ones that just keep coming back for more each week.

I've received similar complements. Typically, my games are not happy little elves holding hands. As a general rule, I run rather dark games. I also receive criticism and have from the beginning done my best to learn and improve my talents as a Game Master. For instance, when I first started I was not very confident at all. It took me (in my opinion) about 4-5 months before I felt confident. Furthermore, of the many games I have run (at least one each week for about two years now) I have only had TWO players complain about my G.M.ing style. The first did not want to play Rifts/Palladium and wanted me to run White Wolf's exalted instead and so was intentionally trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Much to my surprise my other players players actually banded together and kicked him out because they loved my game so much, that is when I knew I was doing something right! The other was Calto, though even he didn't start complaining and criticizing my G.M.ing styles until about two months after the game after we had our falling out and (if it is not obvious) his criticism is based on nothing but hatred and a self admitted desire to "hurt me" in someway, so why would I take it seriously?

So, if you are trying to imply that "something else" must be me, you're going to have to just accept that I am not going to wear that hat. Until I start losing players or people stop walking away from my games happy (and then calling/PMing/texting me through the week to gush about how awesome X was or when are they going to get to explore Y) than I am not going to accept that I am a bad G.M. or doubt myself. Its just not going to happen. Each week my players have fun (I don't always) but I make sure they DO and for me, that is enough. I've inspired players to laugh, fight for what they believe in (or what their characters do) and even bought one player to tears because of a moral dilemma (that is how invested they were ). So I'm doing something right, and if that means I have to keep kicking out "problem players" that try to molest/kill other party members, refuse to share, and constantly stab their "friends" in the back to get ahead... than so be it.

After all, I can either have "the best freaking game I've ever played!!!!" and "I heard Rifts was **** but this game is the bomb L!" or a mess of egos and infighting, who in their right mind would ever choose the latter?

[Damian Magecraft]

Funny that...

Not really, its pretty much a common consensus from every other G.M. that I've spoken to that runs online games except for you and the others that have expressed an opposing opinion in this thread already. However, I know you are not going to take my word on it so I have just finishing shooting e-mails/private messages to a few other G.M.s I know and hopefully they will wade in on the topic so you can see I'm not trying to be a douchebag.

Then you have not spoken with a very large sample...
my experiences and conversations with other GMs say the opposite.

I have been GMing online for close 15 years now and have only ever encountered 2 (count them two) Players like those you have described (one of each).

I'd call you the lucky one then.

Not really the second type you described is extremely rare. The first type? most so called munchkins barely have scratched the surface of the horrors a system and experienced GM can throw at them.

Again either you are having bad luck or its something else entirely.

As I mentioned in my first post, I had to "reboot" three times so I could build a game that would last more that one story arc (3 to 5 games) because certain people I allowed into the game would make my other players uncomfortable with their behavior (No, not just one or two "wussie players"). At one time I had five of my eight players coming to me expressing that a certain players anti-social behavior was ruining the game for them and they were considering leaving because of it.

Sorry to hear that but in my experience re-boots are not required after you ditch your "problem" player... for me after the second such re-boot (and definitely after the third) I would be questioning weather it was a run of bad luck with players or if there was some sort of miscommunication happening...

Also: comments of being a great GM are worthless its the ones that call you horrible that really tell you what type of GM you are.

Why do you have to assume the negative? What is it about the human race that makes people want to believe the terrible things rather than getting to know someone, knowing their abilities, or capabilities? Why is it that rather than accepting that I could run a game that makes people happy and is fun and enjoyable such an impossible concept? What? A few venomous rumors from people that hate me? My personality? What?

Why is it that these assumptions are made, and more to the point, why is they are believed when the sources for these observations are obviously not credible or strongly bias against me?

Those questions are all rhetoric, but I felt worth mentioning. Just something to think about.

persecution complexes are not the sign of a good GM.
And you missed my point entirely. Everyone will tell a GM that they run a great game. conflict avoidance is human nature and the assumption (due in no small part to tales of some truly epic nerd rages from horrid GMs that were pointedly told just how bad they were) by the players of being labeled "problem" players or worse by the GM is the reason they will do that.
But its the "bad GM" labels that tell you how truly effective a GM you are. (mainly because the person labeling you so is either someone you were forced to remove from the game to ensure everyone elses fun or is truly being honest with you.)
Because in order to be a great GM you have to incorporate aspects of every conceivable type of "Bad GM."
That is not to say you discount those compliments but the "insults" thrown in the heat of passion are far more telling.

[Giant2005]

And you missed my point entirely. Everyone will tell a GM that they run a great game. conflict avoidance is human nature and the assumption (due in no small part to tales of some truly epic nerd rages from horrid GMs that were pointedly told just how bad they were) by the players of being labeled "problem" players or worse by the GM is the reason they will do that.
But its the "bad GM" labels that tell you how truly effective a GM you are. (mainly because the person labeling you so is either someone you were forced to remove from the game to ensure everyone elses fun or is truly being honest with you.)
Because in order to be a great GM you have to incorporate aspects of every conceivable type of "Bad GM."
That is not to say you discount those compliments but the "insults" thrown in the heat of passion are far more telling.

I don't really understand this logic. I'm sure it is there, I just don't see it. Are you saying that if a GM doesn't get negative reviews, they can't be a good GM? That doesn't make sense at all.
I consider AS a good GM. That doesn't mean I somehow think he is a bad GM.

[The Beast]

And you missed my point entirely. Everyone will tell a GM that they run a great game. conflict avoidance is human nature and the assumption (due in no small part to tales of some truly epic nerd rages from horrid GMs that were pointedly told just how bad they were) by the players of being labeled "problem" players or worse by the GM is the reason they will do that.
But its the "bad GM" labels that tell you how truly effective a GM you are. (mainly because the person labeling you so is either someone you were forced to remove from the game to ensure everyone elses fun or is truly being honest with you.)
Because in order to be a great GM you have to incorporate aspects of every conceivable type of "Bad GM."
That is not to say you discount those compliments but the "insults" thrown in the heat of passion are far more telling.

I don't really understand this logic. I'm sure it is there, I just don't see it. Are you saying that if a GM doesn't get negative reviews, they can't be a good GM? That doesn't make sense at all.
I consider AS a good GM. That doesn't mean I somehow think he is a bad GM.

How is someone going to get better if no one gives him negative reviews?

[Akashic Soldier]

How is someone going to get better if no one gives him negative reviews?

He never said I was perfect.
I am learning constantly as I play. I often get criticism ("This was too hard with way too little reward" and "You're like a G.M. that wants to be able to rail road but refuses to so lets your games die off when they get off the tracks") being some of the most recent. I listen, I learn. It doesn't mean that I am a **** Game Master or that the one (because even the one guy that was kicked said I was a good G.M. he just didn't want to play Rifts) person that claims I am **** is correct and somehow all my players are puppets that mindlessly sing my praises. See how that might be a little offensive to some people?

To answer your question though, I am learning all the time. I know my strengths and my weaknesses. I acknowledge and recognize them and do my best to try to adapt/overcome and build upon them, just like with anything else.

Sorry to hear that but in my experience re-boots are not required after you ditch your "problem" player... for me after the second such re-boot (and definitely after the third) I would be questioning weather it was a run of bad luck with players or if there was some sort of miscommunication happening...

My problem was that I would build elaborate latticework plots where each person's character based off what they submitted had a part of the story or background information that would reveal "the metaplot" as the story went on or give the players knowledge of a certain weakness or NPC ally or... stuff, you know. I would do my best to build worlds and stories that were ABOUT the players rather than just happening to them. So, what would happen was if I lost a player character than sometimes I would be left sitting there thinking "Well, how can I introduce story element A, D, Y and X without it feeling tacky or forced now?" and often given how unique the player characters were, I couldn't. So, instead of running a hackneyed story when we lost players I'd just scrap it and say we were starting over. This would have to be my biggest "flaw" as a G.M. but it comes from the fact that I am a script writer/journalist by trade and if my story is flawed or does not connect I have it drilled into me that you scrap it and start again. Otherwise you run the risk of getting sucked into a dud and giving it more time and energy than it deserves when you could easily just move on to something that works better. I'm working on this though and I have gotten better.

However, that said, if it wasn't for "munchkins" (as Damian Clarifies them) and sexual deviancy that makes other players at the table uncomfortable and ***** to me, than I wouldn't have to have rebooted. Character death I can handle, I can find a way to link the story element ties to the character's new player... but when losing a player the story has to shrink to accommodate the loss and that could appear forced or...

Eh, it doesn't matter.

As for the persecution complex, its only a complex if you're actually not being persecuted. I mean, I am not stupid. I'm not fooled by the veil of politeness. Damian Magecraft hates me (or at least doesn't like me). I am not sure WHY since we've never really interacted but that is something I have gotten used to. That is why he tells people my past is "just a story" rather than asking for any evidence, character witnesses, or anything and gives me passive aggressive tude like the above. Doesn't matter though. This has strayed from the original topic at hand. As I said before hand, if my players are happy and keep coming back than in my mind regardless of what anyone else thinks I must be doing something right. Manipulative attempts to try to make me feel small or put doubt in my mind just aren't going to work. The only way I'd start thinking I was a bad G.M. or player (or a bad person) is if the people who I game with and actually take the time to know me told me; and in my experience its quite the contrary. So, yeah.

[Nursahburen]

I've definatley had my share of 'problemed players' and just plain old idiots I run online regularly for the past 5 years and there are people that ARE OUT to just SCREW with your game... while I also have to say I have met a lot of REALLY cool people and my regular players and GM's R the BEST you could ask for...

[Damian Magecraft]

And you missed my point entirely. Everyone will tell a GM that they run a great game. conflict avoidance is human nature and the assumption (due in no small part to tales of some truly epic nerd rages from horrid GMs that were pointedly told just how bad they were) by the players of being labeled "problem" players or worse by the GM is the reason they will do that.
But its the "bad GM" labels that tell you how truly effective a GM you are. (mainly because the person labeling you so is either someone you were forced to remove from the game to ensure everyone elses fun or is truly being honest with you.)
Because in order to be a great GM you have to incorporate aspects of every conceivable type of "Bad GM."
That is not to say you discount those compliments but the "insults" thrown in the heat of passion are far more telling.

I don't really understand this logic. I'm sure it is there, I just don't see it. Are you saying that if a GM doesn't get negative reviews, they can't be a good GM? That doesn't make sense at all.
I consider AS a good GM. That doesn't mean I somehow think he is a bad GM.

How is someone going to get better if no one gives him negative reviews?

exactly

[Damian Magecraft]

Sorry to hear that but in my experience re-boots are not required after you ditch your "problem" player... for me after the second such re-boot (and definitely after the third) I would be questioning weather it was a run of bad luck with players or if there was some sort of miscommunication happening...

My problem was that I would build elaborate latticework plots where each person's character based off what they submitted had a part of the story or background information that would reveal "the metaplot" as the story went on or give the players knowledge of a certain weakness or NPC ally or... stuff, you know. I would do my best to build worlds and stories that were ABOUT the players rather than just happening to them. So, what would happen was if I lost a player character than sometimes I would be left sitting there thinking "Well, how can I introduce story element A, D, Y and X without it feeling tacky or forced now?" and often given how unique the player characters were, I couldn't. So, instead of running a hackneyed story when we lost players I'd just scrap it and say we were starting over. This would have to be my biggest "flaw" as a G.M. but it comes from the fact that I am a script writer/journalist by trade and if my story is flawed or does not connect I have it drilled into me that you scrap it and start again. Otherwise you run the risk of getting sucked into a dud and giving it more time and energy than it deserves when you could easily just move on to something that works better. I'm working on this though and I have gotten better.

Well over planning is a common down fall of new GMs...

[Damian Magecraft]

As for the persecution complex, its only a complex if you're actually not being persecuted. I mean, I am not stupid. I'm not fooled by the veil of politeness. Damian Magecraft hates me (or at least doesn't like me). I am not sure WHY since we've never really interacted but that is something I have gotten used to. That is why he tells people my past is "just a story" rather than asking for any evidence, character witnesses, or anything and gives me passive aggressive tude like the above. Doesn't matter though. This has strayed from the original topic at hand. As I said before hand, if my players are happy and keep coming back than in my mind regardless of what anyone else thinks I must be doing something right. Manipulative attempts to try to make me feel small or put doubt in my mind just aren't going to work. The only way I'd start thinking I was a bad G.M. or player (or a bad person) is if the people who I game with and actually take the time to know me told me; and in my experience its quite the contrary. So, yeah.

Hate takes effort.
Disliking you would mean I care enough to form an emotional attachment of some sort.
What I am is indifferent.
As for the stories comments from another site (you brought this up here instead of as PM in order to try and discredit me; now you have to deal with the subject weather you like the response or not) I have seen you make multiple grandiose claims since you came to the boards; all of them designed to garner sympathy... For half of them to be true you would have to be such an emotional and mental wreck that printing your own name in something other than crayon would be a milestone achievement and forming and sharing cognitive thoughts a pipe dream.
Plus...
This is the internet... people lie. (if they didnt we wouldnt need sites like Snopes would we?)
So you can see why I show skepticism.

[Akashic Soldier]

For half of them to be true you would have to be such an emotional and mental wreck that printing your own name in something other than crayon would be a milestone achievement and forming and sharing cognitive thoughts a pipe dream.

You underestimate people Damian. Sometimes there is only so many times someone can be told that they'll never amount to anything or be nothing before that turns into fuel, passion, and drive. My entire life I've heard that same garbage thinking tossed at me, since primary school. Yet, here I am. If you want to assume that someone who comes from a bad environment cannot raise above their lot in life, that is your choice. If you want to believe that its the internet so I am a liar, that is also your choice. Likewise, if you have no sympathy for my situation (which I do not actually want, for the record) than that is your choice too. However, please don't assume to know my mind without first knowing me. I have on repeated occasions shared parts of my life with people on this forum in a grand effort for others to understand my perspective BECAUSE I myself have not always agreed with it and I UNDERSTAND why it might seem strange or different to some people. Most people have not ever imagined many of the things I have experienced and lived though, that does not mean I want pity or sympathy. It just means they do not know what a person is capable of doing. They (like the above statement) assume that just because their mother was a junkie during pregnancy that they cannot be born an intelligent person, well, I have proven that wrong. They assume that their roots limit them. However, in my case (and I am the first to admit its rare) it made me NOT want to be anything like that more than I think you can begin to imagine. I watched most of the friends I grow up with fall back into drugs and alcoholism and end up teen mothers. I watched them turn into their parents after promising that would never happen. I'm not saying that for sympathy. I am saying that because I want you to FOR A MOMENT stop and imagine what you would think in that experience. Would you think, well... if everyone else is doing it... because as "weak" and "lame" and "pathetic" as it is, coming from that I did--not for long mind you--but I did. I had that moment where I thought "Hey, maybe I should just be like Shane, or Debbie, or Matt" it looks like fun. Instead, I chose to take a hard path in life and be more than that and not repeat my mother's mistakes and become my father. So in one regard you are right, it was a massive milestone achievement in my life. I've had many. Fortunately, the good thing about being born into a crappy family life and told you'll never amount to anything, is that if you can get past it (and I won't lie, it took me years--into my mid twenties--to let go of all the bitterness and anger) than everything else seems small by comparison. Things you might think are grandiose or monumental achievements were only made possible BECAUSE of my **** past and perspective. Case-in-point, JMD, the guy who taught me to write (he is a writer that is well-known for his work on Spider-man and the DCU animated series) taught me how to write (before then I was a terrible writer!) BECAUSE someone had done the same for him. Like him, I was an aspiring comic book ARTIST but I could not find a writer. I wrote to J.M. because some of his work was the very thing that inspired me to try to be more (the earliest Spider-man Clone Saga comics; the flip books, were about coming from an abusive home and having no direction in your life but one you make and they shaped me fundamentally as a person). we became good friends and he taught me everything I know today. Without him, I would be still throwing people into walls when I felt like they were out of line and I wouldn't know the difference between THEN and THAN.
But the simple reality is, I do, because I gave it time. While other people were playing RPGs or Video Games, I traveled the world foolishly believing that I would find some magic place I would fit in or that would make sense. That doesn't take some magical talent or skill, picking up and walking somewhere else or working picking up glasses in a bar until you can afford your next plane ticket isn't anything special. Its just what I did. That was ME and that is largely what has made me "Liam."
Now, if I sat and wallowed and believed what you said (or if I was the person you categorize in the above statement) than I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't be able to express these things. So, in a way, I understand where you are coming from. However, that is not the person I want to be--and it is not the person I choose to be. I have certification from Mensa, I have accomplished a lot in my life, and I have recently started my own family. I make no aspersions that I am not a lucky guy, but I've had a long hard slog of it getting here and its been 50% luck and 50% hard work.

Plus... This is the internet... people lie. (if they didnt we wouldnt need sites like Snopes would we?). So you can see why I show skepticism.

I guess I see your point. I've just always been a larger than life person. At school I was the class clown. When someone said I couldn't do something, I did it to prove them wrong (or got hurt trying as was often the case ). I just wish, sincerely wish, that people who were going to say these things got to know me first or at least asked for references. Instead, every time I have shown someone their preconceptions aren't right they get angry. Like when people were calling me "stupid" like my old gamer friends used to so I posted my Mensa certificate from 2011 and then everyone accused me of calling everyone else stupid. Which, I never even did. I just want the respect and credit I am due. If people were upset over my actions, I'd understand, but I don't get (I honestly don't get!) why people feel compelled to try to attack/hurt me on this forum just because I do not agree with their assessment of things and (like you) do not take their non-sense at face value. The thing is Damian, people don't just lie on the internet. They lie in real life too; they lie to themselves. They see the truth they WANT to be true and rarely take the time to scrape below the surface and find facts. I call this Willful Ignorance and I hate this more than anything else in the world. More than I hate my wanker of a father, more than I hate James for giving Joel the **** he O.D.ed on. I hate ignorance and I hate ignorant people who pick and choose their reality and then condemn others based on that. People who cut people down instead of trying to be more than they are. Very recently (last night actually) after some deep soul searching, prayer, and thought I realized why that was... because for me, its easy to fight. I've had to fight very hard my entire life, verbally, physically, emotionally. So when I am attacked, I respond in kind. Likewise, when I see attacks on people I consider dear friends, I attack. It is a bad habit (I never claimed I was perfect) and there are a lot of things I need to work on as a person, but being a liar isn't one of them.

I am lucky to have the opportunities and experiences I have had (case in point).

Well, yet again I have put myself out there (but this is the last time). Now, you can read it and use it as a tool for understanding me or you can assume I am a liar and out for sympathy. However, at the end of the day what do I get if you are sympathetic? Sweet **** all, it'd be a hell of a lot of effort just for someone to say "There, there, Liam." Especially someone I do not know, and I'd never meet. I share this personal information with strangers so they can get a new perspective. If you don't want to, that is up to you and I won't be bringing it up on the boards again. I sincerely, just wanted to help people understand HOW I reach the conclusions I do because to quote an old friend of mine "You think more deeply than most other people, so sometimes you might need to explain that for people to understand."

Finally, as for over-planning thing being common to new G.M.s that is good to know, makes me feel a little better about things. Thanks.

[The Dark Elf]

Im sick of reading ****** arguments on these ****** forums (said in a non-jovial Sam L Jackson voice).

This isnt the "all things" forum take your **** elsewhere (pls). No one reads your arguments anyway so forget the publicity crap.

Sick of it. Absolutely sick.

shut up (pls).

*editing with politeness in brackets as these were left out originally in anger. This applies to all arguments about posters too.

[calto40k]

Im sick of reading ****** arguments on these ****** forums (said in a non-jovial Sam L Jackson voice).

This isnt the "all things" forum take your **** elsewhere (pls). No one reads your arguments anyway so forget the publicity crap.

Sick of it. Absolutely sick.

shut up (pls).

*editing with politeness in brackets as these were left out originally in anger. This applies to all arguments about posters too.

Here Here. I'm hopefully awaiting your PFRPG supplement Dark Elf

[Cinos]

Im sick of reading ****** arguments on these ****** forums (said in a non-jovial Sam L Jackson voice).

This isnt the "all things" forum take your **** elsewhere (pls). No one reads your arguments anyway so forget the publicity crap.

Sick of it. Absolutely sick.

shut up (pls).

*editing with politeness in brackets as these were left out originally in anger. This applies to all arguments about posters too.

Going to the internet and expecting to not see an argument is like going to war and expecting not to shoot at people. Possible, but a poor idea. Learn to identify an argument, and then not read it.

[The Dark Elf]

Im sick of reading ****** arguments on these ****** forums (said in a non-jovial Sam L Jackson voice).

This isnt the "all things" forum take your **** elsewhere (pls). No one reads your arguments anyway so forget the publicity crap.

Sick of it. Absolutely sick.

shut up (pls).

*editing with politeness in brackets as these were left out originally in anger. This applies to all arguments about posters too.

Going to the internet and expecting to not see an argument is like going to war and expecting not to shoot at people. Possible, but a poor idea. Learn to identify an argument, and then not read it.

LOL, Easier said than done. And I expect it (although mainly in the "all things" forums not this one), Im just sick of having to expect it and not the only one. I'd prefer people take it to PMs. These forums seem to get personal and off topic more quickly these days (oops - see!).

[arouetta]

Wow, thanks everyone for the support and words of wisdom. My group is back again and better than ever. I have three strong players and two so-so players, but those two get better every week. I had to "kiss a few frogs" along the way, but I like the current table. I didn't have to reboot the campaign, I simply found logical excuses to where everyone left to (the most comical being the Minotaur PC leading an Orc tribe and having a harem) and the players worked as hard as I did at welcoming incoming characters to the group.

[Akashic Soldier]

Wow, thanks everyone for the support and words of wisdom. My group is back again and better than ever. I have three strong players and two so-so players, but those two get better every week. I had to "kiss a few frogs" along the way, but I like the current table. I didn't have to reboot the campaign, I simply found logical excuses to where everyone left to (the most comical being the Minotaur PC leading an Orc tribe and having a harem) and the players worked as hard as I did at welcoming incoming characters to the group.

Good to hear!
Funnily enough, that is the third time I've heard about a minotaur PC having a harem.