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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:03 pm
  

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Wanderer

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I have no problems with Wolfen having variants of Silver Hawk or Ground Pounder PA; the race makes up a large percentage of the CCW military. There's also no reason to change the stats of the PA to account for the races that use them. As others have pointed out, the TGE has the Warlord Mk II for races other than Khreegor, and the CCW is at least as inclusive.
I also have no problems with artists' depictions being just that; I'm pretty sure I read something about that in some official place somewhere... so, I really don't care. There's no need to take things literally, or we're going to be nit-picking Palladium's art for the rest of the epoch. Again to bring up the Mk II, the picture looks like that particular suit was made for a human.
As a GM, I would rule that the CCW has variants of things for various races... as does the TGE. One can always put it to a vote with one's players, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:58 pm
  

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Fenris2020 wrote:
I have no problems with Wolfen having variants of Silver Hawk or Ground Pounder PA; the race makes up a large percentage of the CCW military.

GMs are free to house-rule that variants can exist of any armor. I could in theory customize a SAMAS so that a 60ft giant could pilot it.

Fenris2020 wrote:
There's also no reason to change the stats of the PA to account for the races that use them. As others have pointed out, the TGE has the Warlord Mk II for races other than Khreegor

The difference is that we're EXPLICITLY told that the Mark II fits both humans and wolfen. At 10ft it's 1ft taller than 9ft CCW power armors such as the NF series, Ground Pounder or Silverhawk (none of which mention Wolfen can fit inside) so there's probably more room for customization there.

It's not even clear that all human heights would fit within CCW boundaries. I don't think we're ever actually given guidelines as to what the maximum height is for PA pilots, except the common sense that a pilot couldn't fit inside if they were taller than the PA.

You're probably looking at a necessary difference of more than zero though.

If you look at Kreeghors for an ideal example: they range between 6-8 feet tall and the Mark I is 12 feet tall. That's a height difference of 4-6 feet, between 50% and 100% gap necessary.

Based on that, I'd expect the racial range for the Mark II to be 5/6 of 6-8 which works out to a range of 5'0" to 6'8".

Now, let's say perhaps a Wolfen is actually 6'8" at the head with 4 inch long ears: you have your 7'0", so the shortest Wolfen could fit in a Mark II so long as they fold their ears down.

Or... Royal Kreeghor can actually get up to 10ft tall, so I should've done 5/6 of 6-10, which brings the upper cap to 8'4" which nears the midpoint of the 7-9 foot range of Wolfen. Yeah, that actually works a bit better...

So while I would be okay seeing 7-8 ft wolfen in the Mark II, I could see it feasible that the Wolfen who range from 8'5"-9 feet would be too bulky to fit inside it.

You'd probably also have trouble getting a 4'6" human to use it proper too.

Of course ANYTHING can be customized, but if things were standardized as a baseline then I think we would see variable heights and not fixed heights listed for these armors.

Fenris2020 wrote:
Again to bring up the Mk II, the picture looks like that particular suit was made for a human.

No idea how you'd know that, it's facing away so you can't exactly tell if there's a snout-pouch or anything.

Plus a Silhouette / Machine Person can have human dimensions.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:37 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Fenris2020 wrote:
I have no problems with Wolfen having variants of Silver Hawk or Ground Pounder PA; the race makes up a large percentage of the CCW military.

GMs are free to house-rule that variants can exist of any armor. I could in theory customize a SAMAS so that a 60ft giant could pilot it.

Fenris2020 wrote:
There's also no reason to change the stats of the PA to account for the races that use them. As others have pointed out, the TGE has the Warlord Mk II for races other than Khreegor

The difference is that we're EXPLICITLY told that the Mark II fits both humans and wolfen. At 10ft it's 1ft taller than 9ft CCW power armors such as the NF series, Ground Pounder or Silverhawk (none of which mention Wolfen can fit inside) so there's probably more room for customization there.

It's not even clear that all human heights would fit within CCW boundaries. I don't think we're ever actually given guidelines as to what the maximum height is for PA pilots, except the common sense that a pilot couldn't fit inside if they were taller than the PA.

You're probably looking at a necessary difference of more than zero though.

If you look at Kreeghors for an ideal example: they range between 6-8 feet tall and the Mark I is 12 feet tall. That's a height difference of 4-6 feet, between 50% and 100% gap necessary.

Based on that, I'd expect the racial range for the Mark II to be 5/6 of 6-8 which works out to a range of 5'0" to 6'8".

Now, let's say perhaps a Wolfen is actually 6'8" at the head with 4 inch long ears: you have your 7'0", so the shortest Wolfen could fit in a Mark II so long as they fold their ears down.

Or... Royal Kreeghor can actually get up to 10ft tall, so I should've done 5/6 of 6-10, which brings the upper cap to 8'4" which nears the midpoint of the 7-9 foot range of Wolfen. Yeah, that actually works a bit better...

So while I would be okay seeing 7-8 ft wolfen in the Mark II, I could see it feasible that the Wolfen who range from 8'5"-9 feet would be too bulky to fit inside it.

You'd probably also have trouble getting a 4'6" human to use it proper too.

Of course ANYTHING can be customized, but if things were standardized as a baseline then I think we would see variable heights and not fixed heights listed for these armors.

Fenris2020 wrote:
Again to bring up the Mk II, the picture looks like that particular suit was made for a human.

No idea how you'd know that, it's facing away so you can't exactly tell if there's a snout-pouch or anything.

Plus a Silhouette / Machine Person can have human dimensions.



Not to get any further into this nit-pickery but sure, a Silhouette could use it. :roll: Gee, you really told me. But since it has the "standard humanoid knee" and not the Wolfen reverse knee, I was just using the base humanoid/ human comparison. I can see where this discussion is going to go (swirling), so I'm done with it.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:06 am
  

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Knight

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Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:32 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?



No, in fact the wolfen picture in Phase World shows a Wolfen with wolf-legs rather than human ones... or at least my copy does.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:09 am
  

Champion

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Fenris2020 wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?



No, in fact the wolfen picture in Phase World shows a Wolfen with wolf-legs rather than human ones... or at least my copy does.


Ermmm... you may want to look again.

The knees clearly bend the same direction as a humans; the difference is, they appear to have a second joint lower down with canine-like foot articulation (looking at page 67 of Phase World).

in CB1/r, the picture of the three Canine races shows that both Wolfen and Kankoran, at least, have a knee that bends like a human, and then a reverse-join lower down above their foot/paw. (page 77 of CB1r, not sure on CB1).

The Kankoran, especially, has a very pronounced second joint.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:22 am
  

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Im not going to go through the several posts that have made this point (from several posters)/expressed this basic opinion (im using quotes here merely to highlight it and paraphrase the argument).

Quote:
In the real world/military, they dont make special equipment for you if you are too big or too small they just assign you to a different job"


Thats great and all... but this is NOT the real world at all.

In the real world, humans are the only form you have to account for, and we dont build millions upon millions of a particular vehicle. So, yeah, they dont build a bigger version of the F-16 (or F-35, or F-22, whatever) to suit bigger guys or smaller guys, because, AT BEST, we're producing a few thousand of those vehicles (in the modern era, not even that many - usually a few hundred OR LESS), and it would cost tens of millions or even hundreds of millions to build a variant that is just a little bigger.

This is not the case in Phase World (or even Rifts Earth, though it IS kinda pointed out in NG1/2 (whichever one has Power Armor) that Power-Armor for non-human-shapes is not common, has to be custom ordered, and is stupid expensive; that's the reason the whole Dog Boy Power Armor was created in the first place!).

The CCW has TRILLIONS of sentients. Four of those races make up over FOURTY PERCENT of their population, and one of them (the Wolfen) are extremely likely to enter the military and are noted as pursuing military careers in excess of their population numbers (not that that is small - well over 10% of the entire CCW is Wolfen).

On top of that, a lot of these military devices/craft are produced by independent corporations that are trying to sell to the public and independent Star Nations as well! There's no way they limit themselves to "humans and very human like only!" when about 1/3 of the population of the entire 3Gs (or maybe more, im just back of the napkin mathing here) are not human shaped or sized AT ALL (Kreeghor, for instance).

Given the population sizes involved, and the fact that most of these craft are available on the open market from the companies that make them - they HAVE to be made in variants that fit most of the major races at the very least.

With Wolfen making up ~15-18% of the population of the 3Gs (remember that the TGE has about as many Wolfen in it as the CCW does, and even the UWW has a sizeable population of Wolfen (higher than 5% IIRC).. no way that most of the standard fighter craft and power armors dont have Wolfen variants.

Its not like the US Air Force being like "no, you have to be between size X and Y because you have to fit in the cockpit of this 100$ million dollar aircraft that we only have 200 of" (F-22). Given the size of the CAF, we'd be talking MILLIONS of suits of Silverhawk armor, with potentially a million or more (likely more) for Wolfen and Seljuk (who ALSO have the two-joint leg) alone.

So its not like the cost doesn't pay off, unlike, say, having them produce a variant of the F-22 for taller people when you have a massive pool of people that ARE the right size who are happy to fly. (I.E. you have many times more potential pilots than planes for them to fly, so you get to be picky).

It DOES pay off. You're going to have to be able to fit all your major races, and THEN you look at the sub-1% of the population races and THOSE are the guys you tell "well, we'll find a place for you to serve".

As for fighter cockpits - most of the cockpits on the Fighters in the 3Gs have enough space for a passenger, or at the VERY least, have enough space for a decent bit of gear - im not getting the impression that Space Fighter cockpits are as cramped as modern Jet Fighter cockpits. Again, there's no way they COULD be, given that you want to market those to EVERYONE.

Cockpits are almost surely adjustable. It would be insanity for it not to be. "Nope, only human shaped, human-sized people can fly fighters"....

Just think how stupid that sounds in a setting like that.

Also, can we all stop pretending like the average human is only 5 feet and the average Wolfen is obviously their max height? Srsly.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:49 pm
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
they appear to have a second joint lower down with canine-like foot articulation (looking at page 67 of Phase World).

in CB1/r, the picture of the three Canine races shows that both Wolfen and Kankoran, at least, have a knee that bends like a human, and then a reverse-join lower down above their foot/paw. (page 77 of CB1r, not sure on CB1).

The Kankoran, especially, has a very pronounced second joint.

Pretty sure those are just ankles and they have very big feet and walk on their forefoots (heels raised) like wolves in the wild do. I sometimes walk around this way too, great exercise for the calves/soleus muscle endurance, helps stretch out your toe flexors by hyperextending them.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
In the real world, humans are the only form you have to account for, and we dont build millions upon millions of a particular vehicle.

So, yeah, they dont build a bigger version of the F-16 (or F-35, or F-22, whatever) to suit bigger guys or smaller guys, because, AT BEST, we're producing a few thousand of those vehicles (in the modern era, not even that many - usually a few hundred OR LESS), and it would cost tens of millions or even hundreds of millions to build a variant that is just a little bigger.

This is not the case in Phase World (or even Rifts Earth, though it IS kinda pointed out in NG1/2 (whichever one has Power Armor) that Power-Armor for non-human-shapes is not common, has to be custom ordered, and is stupid expensive; that's the reason the whole Dog Boy Power Armor was created in the first place!).

The CCW has TRILLIONS of sentients. Four of those races make up over FOURTY PERCENT of their population, and one of them (the Wolfen) are extremely likely to enter the military and are noted as pursuing military careers in excess of their population numbers (not that that is small - well over 10% of the entire CCW is Wolfen).

There's plenty of roles for the Wolfen to serve in the military besides Silverhawk pilots though. Assuming it's adapted for their use on a regular basis is not necessary.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
On top of that, a lot of these military devices/craft are produced by independent corporations that are trying to sell to the public and independent Star Nations as well! There's no way they limit themselves to "humans and very human like only!" when about 1/3 of the population of the entire 3Gs (or maybe more, im just back of the napkin mathing here) are not human shaped or sized AT ALL (Kreeghor, for instance).

Well, I'm sure that Naruni would opt to customize their suits for a wide variety to maximize sales, but the CCW isn't interested in maximizing sales, because the soldiers who wear them don't tend to actually buy the power armor.

I'm sure with how amazing it is, the amount of those willing to pilot it eclipse CCW resources to actually produce them, so if it would cut costs in any way to limit it to the most humanoid of humanoids, they probably would.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Given the population sizes involved, and the fact that most of these craft are available on the open market from the companies that make them - they HAVE to be made in variants that fit most of the major races at the very least.

Silverhawk aren't available on the open market to my knowledge. They're a specialized anti-ship armor made to jump through force fields and harass the hull, probably at an angle where many guns couldn't hit them (if we actually had some rules for that)

If you're talking about the cheaper knockoffs with less MDC which lack the disruptor/stealth systems, those might be built from scratch and have other unspecified variations from the "Statistical Data" (perhaps there are 20 ft tall knockoffs, for example) so I think I'd be fine with that, since the CCW isn't producing them.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
With Wolfen making up ~15-18% of the population of the 3Gs (remember that the TGE has about as many Wolfen in it as the CCW does, and even the UWW has a sizeable population of Wolfen (higher than 5% IIRC).. no way that most of the standard fighter craft and power armors dont have Wolfen variants.

Fighters are big enough that I don't think they would need much (if any) customization to allow wolfen to fit into their cockpits.

There are plenty of fighters to accomodate Wolfen, so I don't see why we'd necessarily need Silverhawk armor customized for them too.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its not like the US Air Force being like "no, you have to be between size X and Y because you have to fit in the cockpit of this 100$ million dollar aircraft that we only have 200 of" (F-22). Given the size of the CAF, we'd be talking MILLIONS of suits of Silverhawk armor, with potentially a million or more (likely more) for Wolfen and Seljuk (who ALSO have the two-joint leg) alone.

Just because the CCW produces a lot of them doesn't mean they aren't expensive and they might be hesitant about wasting cost on customizing new versions of them to accomodate new CCW races.

You're talking something that goes for 3.4 million credits on the market, when a CAF Trooper makes only 24,000 credits per year. He wouldn't be able to afford one if he served 100 years in the army.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
So its not like the cost doesn't pay off, unlike, say, having them produce a variant of the F-22 for taller people when you have a massive pool of people that ARE the right size who are happy to fly. (I.E. you have many times more potential pilots than planes for them to fly, so you get to be picky).

What makes you think that isn't the case here too? The "power armor squadron" that accompanies a Scimitar-Class Light Patrol ship is only 10 PA, and there are 10,000 in CAF service, so that would only account for 100,000 for example, and some of those might be Ground Pounders rather than Silverhawks.

I'm not sure exactly how many humans are in the CAF, but I'm pretty sure with over a trillion humans, there's at least a billion who are the right age to fight in the military, and a million of those willing to pilot a silverhawk.

Did we maybe get clearer numbers of how much of each vehicle exist in the CAF in a later book?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
It DOES pay off. You're going to have to be able to fit all your major races, and THEN you look at the sub-1% of the population races and THOSE are the guys you tell "well, we'll find a place for you to serve".

Or you can just tell Wolfen to pilot the tanks they brought to the table to honor their engineer ancestors.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
As for fighter cockpits - most of the cockpits on the Fighters in the 3Gs have enough space for a passenger, or at the VERY least, have enough space for a decent bit of gear - im not getting the impression that Space Fighter cockpits are as cramped as modern Jet Fighter cockpits. Again, there's no way they COULD be, given that you want to market those to EVERYONE.

Cockpits are almost surely adjustable. It would be insanity for it not to be. "Nope, only human shaped, human-sized people can fly fighters"....

Just think how stupid that sounds in a setting like that.

I 100% agree with you on this.

The best example I can think of for big guys in human-intended cockpits is in Vampire Kingdoms pg 112 where a 940lb 12ft D-Bee is able to pilot an "exploration and light combat bot": the TR0992 found on RMB 215 which is 20'8" tall, 11 feet wide, 7'2" long, with room for 1 pilot, 4 passengers and 4 feet for clothing.

I think it a safe assumption that Mii-Tar the Destroyer probably engages in some Manspreading so you probably couldn't still fit the full compliment of 4 human-sized passengers, given that he probably takes up the volume of 8 humans by himself.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Also, can we all stop pretending like the average human is only 5 feet and the average Wolfen is obviously their max height? Srsly.

Who's doing that? I've repeatedly brought up the 7 foot minimum height of Wolfen.

That said: I don't think there's any guarantee that a Silverhawk (or a SAMAS for that matter) would necessarily accomodate a 6'6" human. Either might well be made with average/short humans in mind. We don't know since we're never given guidelines as to acceptable ranges, but we are given a fixed height for these power armors.


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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:27 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?


The Quatroia being a cyborg might have plantigrade legs instead of digigrade they normally have.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:05 pm
  

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SpiritInterface wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?


The Quatroia being a cyborg might have plantigrade legs instead of digigrade they normally have.

That or, being a Beaux illustration, you can't tell WHAT style of knee it is. :D
Regardless, Quatoria are borgs; they can have extra long "grashopper" legs if they feel like going out side their own somatype... or 'monkey' legs if they want to fit in with the "humies" gear.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:45 am
  

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The argument that the CCW has two versions of the Silver Hawk or the Ground Pounder is kind of funny. I am betting that there is just one version made by multiple manufactures. On Wolfen worlds they use the same base pattern just adjusted a little when they manufacture either armors. Remember that we are talking many worlds here. By standardizing the design you can standardize ammo and other consumables. It also means that maintenance and parts would be common.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:53 pm
  

Champion

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SpiritInterface wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Based on the full illustration of the Wolfen Quatoria, I was under the impression that Wolfen in the Three Galaxies had human-like knees and not the reversed ones of PF. Did any later dimension books go back on that?


The Quatroia being a cyborg might have plantigrade legs instead of digigrade they normally have.


Except the entire point of the Quatoria is to look EXACTLY like a living, non-Cyborg Wolfen.

So that their bionic abilities are a shock/surprise to their quarry.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:00 pm
  

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SpiritInterface wrote:
The argument that the CCW has two versions of the Silver Hawk or the Ground Pounder is kind of funny.


Its weird that you say this....

Quote:
I am betting that there is just one version made by multiple manufactures. On Wolfen worlds they use the same base pattern just adjusted a little when they manufacture either armors.


And then say this, which is exactly what "two versions" means.

Quote:
Remember that we are talking many worlds here. By standardizing the design you can standardize ammo and other consumables. It also means that maintenance and parts would be common.


They can have as high as 90% parts commonality and still be "two versions". The ammo is a non-issue (as the weapons outfit is the same regardless of sub-type, and largely energy-based).

But there are still at least two versions (one for taller species like the Seljuk and Wolfen, who also have two-jointed legs). The power plant, electronics, most of the servomotors, etc, are likely all compatible. Itd mostly be armor plates and the frame that are different.

I.E. all the expensive bits are interchangeable, but the basic frame and armor plates (which are quite a bit easier to manufacture, its basically just extruded material) are different.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:05 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
The argument that the CCW has two versions of the Silver Hawk or the Ground Pounder is kind of funny.


Its weird that you say this....

Quote:
I am betting that there is just one version made by multiple manufactures. On Wolfen worlds they use the same base pattern just adjusted a little when they manufacture either armors.


And then say this, which is exactly what "two versions" means.

Quote:
Remember that we are talking many worlds here. By standardizing the design you can standardize ammo and other consumables. It also means that maintenance and parts would be common.


They can have as high as 90% parts commonality and still be "two versions". The ammo is a non-issue (as the weapons outfit is the same regardless of sub-type, and largely energy-based).

But there are still at least two versions (one for taller species like the Seljuk and Wolfen, who also have two-jointed legs). The power plant, electronics, most of the servomotors, etc, are likely all compatible. Itd mostly be armor plates and the frame that are different.

I.E. all the expensive bits are interchangeable, but the basic frame and armor plates (which are quite a bit easier to manufacture, its basically just extruded material) are different.


So based on that then in WWII in addition to the various Marks of the M4 Sherman there were duplicate versions for the Canadian Built ones. When the basic difference between the two countries versions was the Main Gun.

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 Post subject: Re: CCW Power Armor
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:10 am
  

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Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
SpiritInterface wrote:
The argument that the CCW has two versions of the Silver Hawk or the Ground Pounder is kind of funny.


Its weird that you say this....

Quote:
I am betting that there is just one version made by multiple manufactures. On Wolfen worlds they use the same base pattern just adjusted a little when they manufacture either armors.


And then say this, which is exactly what "two versions" means.

Quote:
Remember that we are talking many worlds here. By standardizing the design you can standardize ammo and other consumables. It also means that maintenance and parts would be common.


They can have as high as 90% parts commonality and still be "two versions". The ammo is a non-issue (as the weapons outfit is the same regardless of sub-type, and largely energy-based).

But there are still at least two versions (one for taller species like the Seljuk and Wolfen, who also have two-jointed legs). The power plant, electronics, most of the servomotors, etc, are likely all compatible. Itd mostly be armor plates and the frame that are different.

I.E. all the expensive bits are interchangeable, but the basic frame and armor plates (which are quite a bit easier to manufacture, its basically just extruded material) are different.


So based on that then there are many different versions, because every world would have their own versions based on who made the parts and the technique used, from 10 to 20 up to a couple of hundred version of each model.

_________________
Veni Vidi Vici
Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant


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