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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:57 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
So when they went from RMB to RUE they massively upgraded missile damage...
then we come to the Fleets of the Three Galaxies and find out that cruise missiles still do less damage than LRM nuclear missiles and that K-Hex missiles now do the same damage as regular missiles?
What the heck?

Especially since everyone ELSE gets cruise missiles that do massive damage boosts and get more efficient missiles and the like.
Should we assume that K-Hex (and Concussion, and Slammer, and all the other specialized RMB missiles) scale up the same as regular ones? Or just assume that they are all now pointless?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:42 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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DB2p53 "Money and Trade" mentions an exchange rate of 10 Rifts Earth credits for everyone one Three Galaxies credit... perhaps it would be solved be implementing such an 'exchange rate' for all damage too?

It wouldn't even be that unbalancing, considering there are 1/10 damage phase fields floating around in that dimension.

If the concern is the weapons coming to Rifts Earth, maybe some dimensional barrier hijinx somehow degrades them upon import, similar to whatever the Nightlords do.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:24 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

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two reasons i think.
1, Phase world was not considered when RUE upped the damage. no more than the variant missiles in japan or WB5 triax were given thought.

2, since phase world was a Carella work, and Kevin S. has this odd idea that everything carella created is massively over powered*, it probably wasn't seen as needing it.


*while carella made more than few fairly powerful things, this for the most part isn't true. which makes Kevin S's suggestion to cut the damage and armor 40-50% across the board fairly bad.


i would suggest just upping the damage to match their old dynamic.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:29 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:11 am
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I understand the cruise missile issue and I would just up the damage. On the K-Hex missile side the mini-missiles have better damage and I would use those as a guide. The K-Hex He mini-missile does 1D4x10, average damage 25, vs the regular HE mini-missile doing 5D6, average damage 17.5, so the K-Hex does about 40% more damage for He and Frag missiles. The double price for K-Hex missiles is of course outrageous when K-Hex only costs about 4% more as an explosive vs the most expensive NG MD plastique.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:39 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
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I honestly dont think it is an issue.

LRMs cap out (Nuclear Multi-Warhead) at 2d4x100MD.

The "weak" Nuclear Cruise Missiles do 2d6x100 MD, and the stronger Anti-matter missiles do 4d6x100 MD.

They are categorically better than LRMs, even with the RUE/CWC upgrade.

Remember that Cruise Missiles cant be interdicted (shot down) if launched within 3 miles of the target, except by a counter-volley of 20+ missiles, and even then it may not shoot them all down! (you roll to see how many cruise missiles were intercepted, the rest hit, no matter what)

So, i dont see the need to upgrade the Cruise Missiles. They are still better than LRMs all day, every day. ANd keep in mind these are the "off the shelf" consumer model Cruise Missiles that anyone can buy from an arms dealer.

The big power bloc's have their own Cruise Missiles that are better - Heavy Antimatter for the CCW, Singularity Missiles for the TGE, a multi-warhead missile for the Kitani (10 submunitions, each at 2d6x100), and Neszam Torpedos for the Altess ("regular" anti-matter warheads but they are super-smart-missiles, and their launchers can launch huge volleys)

The other blocs are less technically advanced and cant make the super advanced warheads (like the Golgan).

K-HEX on the other hand...

Yeah, it needs a buff, since it is supposed to be better than regular missiles and after the upgrade, it is not.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:16 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:01 am
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Location: Gates of Hell, Microsofts newest Division
Generaly I posit that theres 4 tech levels in Rifts,

Early Rifts tec and black market,

first generation CS upgrade, some NGR gear and some pre war stockpiles that have not decayed into uslessness, and some stuff in orbital facilities

second generation CS gear that is just starting to show up,

Phaseworld standard,

Khex which adds 20% to Phaseworld damage

Thing is with most missiles If I need to quick roll some salvaged missiles I tend to use 1D4 rolls to quick stat something

1 Short 2 med 3 long 4 "Cruise"

Range multiple being 1 10 50 and 100/200/300/400

Offensive warhead being HE(Standard)
Plasma (no role with punch) one range band reduction
fragmentation(Double point blank blast radius and extend secondary and tertiary damage radius, half range
Plasma-napalm incendiary point blank blast radius only, half damage + 1D4 minuets of burn damage a 1/10th damage, not counting ignition
AP (one range band increase, damage bumped up by one step point blank damage to target only with blast damage and radiuses halved)

Damage and range I roll 1D4 6 8 or 10, range gets a bonus of +1 most of the time
SRM base is 10X (based in the roll) 1D4/1D6/1D8/1D12 .. 4D4/3D6 .. /5D4/4D6 .. 5D6 4D8 6D6 Base blast radius is 10X

(1~3~5 plus warhead "level" damage is full-10% 1% .o1 for another 10-60 ft beyond that, even if SDC f you realy need to to be that detailed

MRM base damage will be a number of D6 based on the type of roll

LRM starts getting into my personal "This is actually a special effect" territory with the reality being why would you waste one on a human sized target? with the damage being like the srms only multiplied by100

Cruise missiles tend to be the big slammers anti bunker and anti star ship, (given that our equivalent has a 1000 pound warhead capacity) same as MRM but with a 1D6X1000 point damage, seriously if you shoot one at a glitter boy.....do I need you to role damage for a Phase world Khex High Explosive missile? theres a crator where It stood,

Nukes tend to be one step up the food chain on this with Micro nukes being srms and kind of rare, MRM nukes being the Equivalent of LRM warheads, and Cruise missle nukes? well....

https://youtu.be/Uc1khcA-ud8?t=56

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:37 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9250
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I honestly dont think it is an issue.

LRMs cap out (Nuclear Multi-Warhead) at 2d4x100MD.

The "weak" Nuclear Cruise Missiles do 2d6x100 MD, and the stronger Anti-matter missiles do 4d6x100 MD.

They are categorically better than LRMs, even with the RUE/CWC upgrade.

Remember that Cruise Missiles cant be interdicted (shot down) if launched within 3 miles of the target, except by a counter-volley of 20+ missiles, and even then it may not shoot them all down! (you roll to see how many cruise missiles were intercepted, the rest hit, no matter what)

So, i dont see the need to upgrade the Cruise Missiles. They are still better than LRMs all day, every day. ANd keep in mind these are the "off the shelf" consumer model Cruise Missiles that anyone can buy from an arms dealer.

The big power bloc's have their own Cruise Missiles that are better - Heavy Antimatter for the CCW, Singularity Missiles for the TGE, a multi-warhead missile for the Kitani (10 submunitions, each at 2d6x100), and Neszam Torpedos for the Altess ("regular" anti-matter warheads but they are super-smart-missiles, and their launchers can launch huge volleys)

The other blocs are less technically advanced and cant make the super advanced warheads (like the Golgan).

K-HEX on the other hand...

Yeah, it needs a buff, since it is supposed to be better than regular missiles and after the upgrade, it is not.

The problem is that we have two classes of cruise missile tier weapons
Tier 1
Nuclear: 2d6x100
Antimatter 4d6x100
Nerzam: 2d6x100
Ion torpedo 2d6x200

And the Tier 2
Singularity 2d6x1000
Heavy Cruise 2d6x1000
Splinter Cruise 2d6x1000
Heavy Antimatter 1d6x1000
Heavy Singularity 1d6x1000
Heavy Phase 2d6x1000

That's pretty Jarring.
(for more fun the Slammer missiles got worse in RUE)
Add in all the various missiles that never got brought over to RUE and your looking at some serious problems.

2d6x100 for a nuclear cruise missile was pretty impressive... when a multi-warhead LRM did 4d6x10.
But now?
For Cruise missiles have less range (many LRMs have a range of 1800 miles vs the 1000miles of a cruise missile), and are only marginally more powerful... and that's totally setting aside the MRM sized firefly.
This just doesn't make sense.
If we use the same math as PW/RMB
then a nuclear cruise missile would do 1d4x1000 (ten times half the damage of a nuke) basic antimatter would do 2d4x1000 (double what a nuke does)
And then the specialty stuff like Splinter, Singularity and Phase all make total sense at 2d6x1000
This leaves us with three
I would say that Nerzam should be a 2d6x1000 and Ion do 1d6x1000 (its future tech but a low tech people doing it)
I would give the Naruni a 2d6x1000 missile myself (why in the world do they have one of the weakest missiles in the book?!?!?!)

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:20 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1846
I still think people are vastly undervaluing the fact that Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted (the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work) there’s a secent likelyhood that 20-50% of them will get through anyway.

That alone makes Cruise Missiles far better than LRMs. If you launch 20 LRMs, i can 100% shoot them down with a counter-volley of 20 missiles, even if you launch at point blank range. If you shoot me with 20 CruMs, a decent number will get through no matter what.

Really, thats all the better they need to be.

Even the “low-end” CruMs still do more damage than a LRM, and the “average” ones (anti-matter) inflict 3x as much (800 max vs 2400 max), so, im not really seing the problem.

And when you factor in that those are the commercially available “off the shelf” models, and the various factions have better missiles (1d4x1000 or better), it seems fine to me.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:44 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9250
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
I still think people are vastly undervaluing the fact that Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted (the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work) there’s a secent likelyhood that 20-50% of them will get through anyway.

That alone makes Cruise Missiles far better than LRMs. If you launch 20 LRMs, i can 100% shoot them down with a counter-volley of 20 missiles, even if you launch at point blank range. If you shoot me with 20 CruMs, a decent number will get through no matter what.

Really, thats all the better they need to be.

Even the “low-end” CruMs still do more damage than a LRM, and the “average” ones (anti-matter) inflict 3x as much (800 max vs 2400 max), so, im not really seing the problem.

And when you factor in that those are the commercially available “off the shelf” models, and the various factions have better missiles (1d4x1000 or better), it seems fine to me.

Which still leaves it bizzare that the "old" cruise missiles got no boost...
...but every NEW missile? Yeah, every new one is x1000
Which pretty much tells you right there that it was just lazy "I can't be bothered to update these old things so I'm going to cut and paste them"

That and...out of curiosity...
Where is the rule about cruise missiles?
I know that the Khreghor Berserker has that as a special rule for its salvo if fired from less than 3 miles away... but I am not seeing that as a universal CM rule. Can you share the citation please?

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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