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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:36 am
  

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I do not understand why we cant post adaptions/convesrions from other games here on the forum. I was thinking of a thing where one poser waned to make an arch-villain in the Rifts forum of a AI called Lucifer, Now I know that this poster did not want to convert from one game to another but Lucifer has been made into an NPC in White Wolf's Demon the Fallen, so by making an NPC that appears to be alike that (and transferred to PB game mechanics) is this a breach against the rules?

Then comes my other question. PB has obviously themselves done this, and taken signature monsters from other games and adapted them to their settings, is this not infringement of copyrights?
The thing i talk about mainly is the Bal-Rog in dark Conversions. When you look at it the Bal-Rog in the picture, approximate appearance and abilities down to the fire whip is a straight copy of the Tolkien Balrogs (all PB has done is to add a new background to it and ad a - between the syllables.

So if PB does it, why can't we post such things.

This, I want to point out, is not a bashing of PB at all, it is just a request of information why we can't do it here on the forums? Because I have a few questions how one can convert things to PB from other lines, but until i get an answer here I will not ask these questions.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:26 am
  

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Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:35 pm
  

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übermensch wrote:
Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

Not to mention the balrog is a mythological creature as well...

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:34 pm
  

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Pretty sure all there Palladium references fall under general use of common myths. Not to say someone hasn't maybe accidentally cross the line. I doubt anyone who is there now, ever did it intentionally.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:52 pm
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

Not to mention the balrog is a mythological creature as well...

Sure. The Balrog is part of a mythology created by Tolkien.

Are you also implying that Lucifer, and by extension the Bible, is a myth? :twisted:

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:10 pm
  

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übermensch wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

Not to mention the balrog is a mythological creature as well...

Sure. The Balrog is part of a mythology created by Tolkien.

Are you also implying that Lucifer, and by extension the Bible, is a myth? :twisted:

According to the definition of myth?
Also Balrogs are older than Tolkien.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:23 pm
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

Not to mention the balrog is a mythological creature as well...

Sure. The Balrog is part of a mythology created by Tolkien.

Are you also implying that Lucifer, and by extension the Bible, is a myth? :twisted:

According to the definition of myth?
Also Balrogs are older than Tolkien.


I'm pretty sure that he invented them.

On the other hand, Baalrogs were invented by Palladium, as far as I can tell.
Imitation is not always plagiarism.
Conversion, on the other hand, is always conversion.

In theory, if you wanted to write up an alien species for Rifts (or HU, or whatever) named "Schmulkans," who have green skin, pointy noses, and who are very logical, you wouldn't be converting anything.
Whether or not you're imitating anything.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:36 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
übermensch wrote:
Lucifer is a biblical figure and probably falls under the umbrella of public domain material. Also, while you can't post a conversion of Lucifer the Space Hamster from another system, you are welcome to create Lucifer the Space Gerbil.

As far as Palladium infringing on copyright (specifically the Tolkien estate), maybe you noticed there once was a land of magic and strange creatures in Rifts called Tolkeen? I just have to assume that Palladium has a lawyer that knows this stuff better than we do.

Not to mention the balrog is a mythological creature as well...

Sure. The Balrog is part of a mythology created by Tolkien.

Are you also implying that Lucifer, and by extension the Bible, is a myth? :twisted:

According to the definition of myth?
Also Balrogs are older than Tolkien.


I'm pretty sure that he invented them.

On the other hand, Baalrogs were invented by Palladium, as far as I can tell.
Imitation is not always plagiarism.
Conversion, on the other hand, is always conversion.

In theory, if you wanted to write up an alien species for Rifts (or HU, or whatever) named "Schmulkans," who have green skin, pointy noses, and who are very logical, you wouldn't be converting anything.
Whether or not you're imitating anything.

In this case only the word is invented....
Balrog is the Tolkien Elvish word for Demon.
There are countless descriptions of demons wielding fire in the manner of the LOTR beast all throughout the various mythologies.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:08 pm
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
In this case only the word is invented....
Balrog is the Tolkien Elvish word for Demon.
There are countless descriptions of demons wielding fire in the manner of the LOTR beast all throughout the various mythologies.

Don't try to back-pedal now that you checked Google :wink:

If you had said, "whip-wielding fire demons are prevalent across many mythologies" I would heartily agree. Tolkien coined the term Balrog to describe his. Thus, Tolkien created The Balrog.

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Last edited by übermensch on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:38 am
  

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Go read the early Dragon magazines of the 70s and 80s. Copyright wasn't a big concern apparently so you get Balrons and Bobbits in Ultima, Hobbits in the original D&D and host of other stuff that wouldn't be okay today.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:32 am
  

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Spinachcat wrote:
Go read the early Dragon magazines of the 70s and 80s. Copyright wasn't a big concern apparently so you get Balrons and Bobbits in Ultima, Hobbits in the original D&D and host of other stuff that wouldn't be okay today.


Yup, anyone putting a Hobbit into an RPG today would quickly hear from Tolkien estate about it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:46 am
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
In this case only the word is invented....
Balrog is the Tolkien Elvish word for Demon.
There are countless descriptions of demons wielding fire in the manner of the LOTR beast all throughout the various mythologies.


Right.
And Tolkien didn't invent Orcs either, because there were "humanoid creatures" in various mythologies before he came up with the idea. ;)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:45 am
  

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So...all fantasy roads lead back to Tolkien?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:15 am
  

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Jorel wrote:
So...all fantasy roads lead back to Tolkien?

RPG wise? Most likely...
Gary was heavily influenced by Tolkien.
And the hobby is influenced by what has come before.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:16 am
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
In this case only the word is invented....
Balrog is the Tolkien Elvish word for Demon.
There are countless descriptions of demons wielding fire in the manner of the LOTR beast all throughout the various mythologies.


Right.
And Tolkien didn't invent Orcs either, because there were "humanoid creatures" in various mythologies before he came up with the idea. ;)

Orcs I will concede...
Can't recall anything in myth that corresponds.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:24 am
  

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Gotta admit I thought Orcs were like Goblins...based in some European mythology. Learn something new every day.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:17 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:22 pm
  

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The modern fantasy genre (and all it entails) was and continues to be heavily influenced by what Tolkien did.

As for direct conversions....while I understand why Palladium doesn't want them here, I also do not agree with it as other gaming companies make no real issue of it the way Palladium does. Some even embrace and endorse it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:57 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
The modern fantasy genre (and all it entails) was and continues to be heavily influenced by what Tolkien did.


Don't forget the influence of Howard and Vance! Though their influence might be a bit more subtle...

jaymz wrote:
As for direct conversions....while I understand why Palladium doesn't want them here, I also do not agree with it as other gaming companies make no real issue of it the way Palladium does. Some even embrace and endorse it.


Those other gaming companies also don't seem to trademark every new name used in a publication (whether for creature, organization, or manifestation), so there is likely less for them to defend. That said, even those companies controlling significant licenses don't seem to be bothered by conversions.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:09 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
The modern fantasy genre (and all it entails) was and continues to be heavily influenced by what Tolkien did.

As for direct conversions....while I understand why Palladium doesn't want them here, I also do not agree with it as other gaming companies make no real issue of it the way Palladium does. Some even embrace and endorse it.


IIRC, Palladium's argument is that THEY don't have a problem with it, but they've been contacted/threatened in the past by other game companies who were upset about that kind of thing.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:19 pm
  

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The only one we know of for sure is McFarlane with Spawn/Nightspawn and myself along with others think that was ridiculous then. It was after that that they came down on the conversions and essentially killed the webring and sharing of websites they used to do...

Again though, I understand it I just don't like or agree with it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:40 pm
  

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Oh the others send out C&Ds as well...
I got one on my desk from Evil Hat, and another from WW...

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:53 pm
  

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A C&D letter or C&D order? There is a significant difference between the two.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:08 pm
  

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Has anyone ever converted Toxie, the Toxic Avenger? I'm not asking for stats, I am just curious. He screams post apocalypse to me, but so does every Troma film.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:29 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
A C&D letter or C&D order? There is a significant difference between the two.

Letters....
Which as I understand it is all that PB has ever sent out.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:39 pm
  

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Dunia,

The reasons for the policy have everything to do with copyright law, specifically American copyright law which is somewhat different to the British copyright law you are used to. Under American copyright law the provisions for fair use are much curtailed and there is every reason for a copyright holder to pursue even the slightest infringements.

Because of such, in order to protect Palladium from legal threat conversions are explicitly banned on the forum. The specific examples you site are stuff from an older period and through their existence all this time have essentially made themselves protected. Were Kevin just starting out today, those items would be riskier to print. Not all of those items are necessarily copy-written either.

In regards to the specific item you are asking about, something using the non-copy-written name of Lucifer is certainly acceptable. Making it some sort of demon is as well. These are both common literary elements and reference older works that no copyright existed on or would have long since expired anyway. However a character that seems to be directly copied off of another copy-written character would definitely be a violation of the rules because of the potential of opening Palladium up to legal action.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:43 pm
  

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did he get taken out mid post?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:46 pm
  

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More or less? Using an iPod and had a finger slip.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:49 pm
  

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Jefffar wrote:
More or less? Using an iPod and had a finger slip.


Here I was thinking you were taken out by the same hunter that ended poor Trevor the Vampire...

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:52 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
As for direct conversions....while I understand why Palladium doesn't want them here, I also do not agree with it as other gaming companies make no real issue of it the way Palladium does. Some even embrace and endorse it.


This is PB's forum and I think that, rightly so, they can make whatever policy they want.

People have a choice if they want to participate here or not. If they find the issues they have to be too problematic for them, they can take their business elsewhere.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to question policy. However, I believe that this has been a long-standing multiyear policy if I'm not mistaken, and I strongly would guess that most users here are aware of this fact. I don't recall, but I think it was even mentioned in the terms of service.

So I'm kind of at a loss to understand the tone of the OP, and the question itself.

All who agree to be here agree to follow PB's rules. Simple as that. Personally, I see no need to question the motives behind it, but that's just me.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:11 pm
  

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Little Snuzzles wrote:
jaymz wrote:
As for direct conversions....while I understand why Palladium doesn't want them here, I also do not agree with it as other gaming companies make no real issue of it the way Palladium does. Some even embrace and endorse it.


This is PB's forum and I think that, rightly so, they can make whatever policy they want.

People have a choice if they want to participate here or not. If they find the issues they have to be too problematic for them, they can take their business elsewhere.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to question policy. However, I believe that this has been a long-standing multiyear policy if I'm not mistaken, and I strongly would guess that most users here are aware of this fact. I don't recall, but I think it was even mentioned in the terms of service.

So I'm kind of at a loss to understand the tone of the OP, and the question itself.

All who agree to be here agree to follow PB's rules. Simple as that. Personally, I see no need to question the motives behind it, but that's just me.



Personally I don't dispute that. As I said I understand the why, I just don't like it or agree with it. Mind you as you said it is their rules which is why I do not post any of my conversions or links to said conversions publicly here on the forums :)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:42 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
I thinkn the OP wanted a little clarification.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:54 pm
  

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OLD ONE

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Comment: PROUDLY Not a member of the "Cabal of 24"
Palladium has been "talked to" before in the past about conversions posted here. More specifically, I believe this was during the days of mailing lists and such. Lucas films sent a Cease and Desist to Palladium about conversions of Jedi's to Palladiums rule system.

I dont know if this was before or after Rifts and Cyberknights.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:04 pm
  

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Thank you Jeffar and NMI.

The reason why I wanted to know was that if I should post something that I waned to post. But I thought it prudent to ask before I did so.

Please do close this thread if possible, i has started to show the seeds of the usual argument now.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:08 pm
  

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Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Dunia wrote:
Thank you Jeffar and NMI.

The reason why I wanted to know was that if I should post something that I waned to post. But I thought it prudent to ask before I did so.

Please do close this thread if possible, i has started to show the seeds of the usual argument now.


Locked at OP's request.

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