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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:13 am
  

D-Bee

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We were playing the other day and I think we might have done something wrong..

option 1)
firing a volley of four missiles with blast at one target we were rolling 4 dice and any misses we would put a different template and scatter it.


option 2)
after reading the rules in detail it seems that you only roll to hit once...if you hit then there is no scatter and damage x 4 under the template( four missiles ) and if you miss then it scatters and only gives damage x 1 under the template

thoughts? is option 2 how you read this ?

thanks


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:51 am
  

D-Bee

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This rule needs some serious rewording / clarification!

The way I've been looking at it (using the Phalanx as the example) is :

Roll 4 dice for your volley size. If ALL dice miss, there is a scatter, but the template only does 9 MD. If 3 of 4 dice hit, there is no scatter, and the template does 27 MD. Shooting down this Volley would need a raw 6. Anyone trying to dodge has to beat the highest roll in the Volley that hit. And if all 4 hit, that would make things Inescapable, so you better get hot dice to shoot the missiles down!


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:54 pm
  

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I've got the same question, actually. When we have used volley blasts, we played it the second way - roll once to hit, do full damage on a hit and if scattered only one missile worth of damage. After a few reading through it a few times, we thought that was right.

We could have been incorrect - if anyone else (Mike?) would help confirm one way or the other I'd be happy to hear it.

Heck, My UEDF would love it if it scattered 4 times. :D

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:03 pm
  

D-Bee

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and btw, when doing option 2 my reading is that the missile don't gain the inescapable since this is a different mechanic...

I really wish they would come and clarify the interaction between blast and volley... :(


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:06 pm
  

D-Bee

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Also I believe that under option 2 a volley of 4 does not gain the inescapable characteristic based on the description on pgs 27-28 since the missiles don't "directly" hit the target except as per blast


I wish they would clarify the interaction between blast and volley...it is pretty critical..


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:00 pm
  

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Just my opinion upon reading this again: I think option two is how it reads. I think option 1 is how it should work. I think the paragraph on pg. 28 is the issue. Choosing multiple targets (as outlined in that pg 28 paragraph) seems to give you a huge advantage over choosing a single target. There seems to be yet another letter/spirit debate within this. It seems incongruous to have a volley do one missiles worth of damage in one scenario but do x missiles worth of damage in another. The bottom line: missiles should follow the same rules all the time!

Second point: If PB really wants to run tournaments of a game an issue like this should never come up. This game has not been properly vetted for tournament play in my opinion. I hope, for the sake of all who wish to participate as well as the people who have to adjudicate a skirmish, that questions like this have officially resolved answers that are made public knowledge with enough lead time for a tournament player to know how the game is played.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:41 am
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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See below for an update

I'll take a stab at it...

Since these are missiles with the Volley X trait, which are handled just like regular missiles with exception of ammo, each missile has a separate roll to attack. Now, we add the Blast trait to the mix.
See the diagram here: http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/Jakovaltrade/Robotech%20Games/missileblast.png

In this example we have a phalanx (1) that fires four missiles at two targets, he wants three of those missiles to target the center pod of a group of pods clumped together (Pod D), and the last missile to hit the lonely scout pod (Pod S), off on its own. The attacker rolls 4 dice, keeping the one for the scout separate (I would use a different color dice). Now for our example, he hits with two, misses the third, in hits with the fourth-- the scout.

Now determine the scatter: the one missile that missed Pod D scatters with a scatter roll d6 of 5 (direction) and a 2d6 roll of 5 inches (purple arrow).

So, for the first two missiles that hit, ALL 5 Pods under the template (blue circle) get an attempt to shoot them down. Roll 5 dice (for 5 Pods) and if any of the dice are 6, BOTH missiles go away. If none of the dice are a 6, each pod would need to ‘Dodge’ and then ‘roll with it’ if wanted and paying the command points to do so.

The Missile that scattered, clips the edge of Pod C. Pod C would get a chance to shoot down that missile with a roll of 6. If it fails, he can attempt to ‘Dodge’ and then ‘roll with it’ if wanted and paying the command points to do so
.
Now the scout has a single missile on him. He would get a chance to shoot down that missile with a roll of 6. If it fails, he can attempt to ‘Dodge’ and then ‘roll with it’ if wanted and paying the command points to do so.


That’s my take on it…any comments?

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Last edited by Phaze on Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Comments for Phaze
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:00 am
  

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I agree with everything you wrote. However, the paragraph on page 28 reads in part "to determine if the volley hits" and not what it should likely say- 'how many missiles of the volley hit' or even 'determine if the volley hits as normal." It implies that the volley either hits or misses as a whole unit, even though that is not how missile volleys work.

So, in your example as written, I don't think there are any questions. Furthermore, if only one missile hits the first pod I think it is clear that two missiles now scatter (also from page 28). The question is what if the entire volley targets Pod D? Do you still roll 4 times or just one (see excerpt above)? No matter what the answer to that is, what then happens when some number of missiles miss? For constancy sake, it should be that up to 4 missiles with blast scatter individually. However, it clearly states that you determine a single scatter point and the damage is from one missile. My question at that point is simply, why?

There is no sensible reason to put this restriction in. Even if someone argues that the blast weapons would become 'too powerful' the simple fact that they can unpredictably take out your own figure is what balances that out. The more random they become, the more likely they are to be a detriment to using.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:39 am
  

D-Bee

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So,two votes for reading as option 2 and one vote for reading as option 1..

one comment regarding your answer Phaze...

since the phalanx does not have split fire it can only split the missiles among targets 2" away so why would he target a scout on its own, and while at it why would he center the templates on any pod.. in fact since the rules allow to hit the ground on a 5 in our games blast weapons always are shot at the ground thus allowing you to hit on 5 instead of the 6 of the pods... so in that case if it reads as option 1 he would just center the targets on spots on the ground catching the scout and someone else...

if the rules that apply to missiles in general ( inescapable if 4 hit, allowing to split missiles among ttargets 2" away ) apply to blast missiles, then option 2 is irrelevant since I can still split my missiles in 4 spots separated by fraction of an inch and stil get all my targets under the template ...

combining the volley rules with the blast rules beyond what is outlined on page 28 is really powerful, particularly if they always hit targets on 5s since you always target the ground next to the enemy. if that is the intention then no problem, but if it is not the intention then this could be a big unbalancing factor...

a clarification is certainly critical in this sense:

how much of the volley rules apply to blast mssiles, beyond what is outlined on the page 28 paragraph?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:42 am
  

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Phaze, remember you can only attempt to shoot down missiles OR attempt to dodge them, not both.

I think we could read it either way, after reading it again I'm starting to think the individual rolls to hit are the way to go - lines like "...if the target(s) of a missile volley is hit by multiple missiles..." make me think it might be that way, just poorly worded.

Wish there was official word.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:10 am
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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Dang...didn't have my thinking cap on. You caught me on two points:

Quote:
since the phalanx does not have split fire it can only split the missiles among targets 2" away so why would he target a scout on its own


You are correct. My example is not good with regard to splitting the fire. I will rework the example after I get some clarification on the page 28 paragraph.

Quote:
Phaze, remember you can only attempt to shoot down missiles OR attempt to dodge them, not both.


Yea, I didn't follow that in my example description. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hang tight guys, I see if I can't get this cleared up today.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:45 am
  

D-Bee

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With the huge # of playtesters listed in the front of the rule book, I'm really wondering how things like this that are unclear made it into the rulebook?!

The way I read it, I'm not seeing anything that makes me think a weapon with Blast ONLY rolls one die to hit. The Phalanx says "Volley", and under volley the UEDF rolls 4 dice. Is there a reference somewhere where it clearly says 'only roll one die with a blast weapon'? If not...

Is there an Admin that is The Rules Owner for making decisions, that is here on a regular basis? I've scanned thru here and most of the questions seem to be a bunch of us trying to interpret things with nobody taking true ownership to give an official answer. Am I missing something?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:32 am
  

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Comment: Also known as: Lonnie Langston
Each Missile gets its own roll. 4 Missiles, 4 rolls. If all 4 hit, Inescapable. Blast missiles (even just 1) require a Natural 6 to Shoot Down (even with Anti-Missile/Missiles). Determine Scatter for any Miss Missile.

Target and Roll like Volley.
Scatter, Damage, and Shoot Down like Blast.

Blast rule is too wordy which confuses everything.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:26 pm
  

D-Bee

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I'm pretty sure I agree with ApocalypseZero except on this :

"Determine Scatter for any Miss Missile." It appears the rules say you only scatter if ALL the dice miss. So you could hit with 3 of 4, and the 4th miss would not result in a scatter template if that is the case.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:18 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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After reading the rules carefully, there does seem to be a choice that can be made between attacking with one role or attacking with each missile separately. Although the rules don’t explicitly say whether that choice can be made. It seems that the attacker can make that choice simply by targeting multiple points on the ground to cover the same targets and resolve the attack with multiple roles. Page 28 says, “If a missile volley with the blast ability is divided between multiple targets, each individual missile attack must be resolved separately. If any of them missed their intended targets completely, they will scatter separately as well.”

I tried to get a hold of Jeff Burke today but it seems that the snowstorm has left Palladium with nobody to answer the phones. I will push this to the top of the list to get answered. I’ll call Jeff tomorrow and have the discussion. He may wish to call the creators of the rules to verify the answer.

Thanks all for your patience.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:30 pm
  

D-Bee

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oops, I haven't even considered PATACK's version, that is also an alternative view, if 3 hit and one misses you get an on target template but no scatter for the lost one, that one just is ignored... ( all under option 1 of the reading of the rules )

that is also a way to read it and it makes a big difference to have only one or no templates scatter as one of the issues for us was the excessive amount of scatter templates going around :)

Phaze, it will be fantastic if you managed to clarify this, at the end of the day we just need to understand what is the way they intended us to play this so that we can plan tactics accordingly. In either interpretation it will be good to know the answer to the point you and I talked about regarding the option to break up a volley template into 4 almost superimposed templates.

looking forward to the answer to this !

cheers
Francisco


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:01 pm
  

D-Bee

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@Phaze: Can we confirm that we need to roll 6's in order to shoot down missles even with the Anti-Missle/Anti-Missle+Missle traits please?

I fully understand it - RAW, must roll a 6 to shoot down blast missiles - I just don't understand the game logic that dictates that blast missiles should be harder to shoot down than other missiles. To me, the only thing unbalanced about blast missiles is that they are harder to shoot down. I get it - anything under the template can attempt to shoot them down, but anything under the template also has a real good chance of being hit with inescapable. On average, 3+ MD9/missiles hit every time a volley4 blast missile launcher is fired at the ground (needing a 3+ roll to hit). 27+MDea. hitting EVERY mecha under the template needs something that can balance it out.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:33 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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MattK512 wrote:
@Phaze: Can we confirm that we need to roll 6's in order to shoot down missles even with the Anti-Missle/Anti-Missle+Missle traits please?


Yes you need a 6 to shoot it down. This is offset by the multiple mecha that can attempt the shot (everyone under the template). I presume blast missiles are heavier, more armored, and have more counter measures to ensure a better effective payload delivery. Hence the limited ammo.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:10 pm
  

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After having a good conversation with Jeff Burke this is the method of Blast missiles:

The attacker can decide if he would like to target all missiles on the same mecha or point of impact or he can choose to target individual points for each missile.

Option 1: the attacker can pick a target of the attack and launch all or some of the missiles at a single target. The group of missiles rolls 1 Dice to hit. If it hits, the damage is all of the missiles in the group MD damage combined. If it misses, it scatters as per the rules, but the scatter damage is only one missiles MD damage.

Option 2: the attacker can pick multiple targets, one for each missile (this includes multiple spots on the ground). Roll for EACH missile. Misses scatter as normal and deal damage as normal.

Attempts at shooting the missiles down are for EACH Attack Dice. If the missiles are grouped under one attack, then every mecha under the template gets a shot at the incoming missiles, any success shoots down all of the missiles in that group. If the attacks are separated yet overlap, the mecha under the templates gets a free shot at EACH attack, treating them separately. A success eliminates only that missile or group.

Likewise, attempts to ‘Dodge’ and ‘Roll with Impact’ are handled per attack DICE, not individual missiles. So, if the attacked launches 4 missiles at three targets (1 group of 2 missiles, 2 individual missiles), he would roll 3 dice to attack. Each attack dice would be treated separately with regard to ‘Dodge’ and ‘Roll with Impact’.

I will post an example when time permits and put this in the FAQ.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:28 pm
  

D-Bee

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thanks for the answer, one thing that might not have been clarified, if chosing option 1 with a four volley missile where you only roll one d6 to hit.. is a hit inescapable as per a 4 volley missiles or is it only inescapable if you get hit by 4 different templates ? or is maybe never...


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:52 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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seldonmba wrote:
thanks for the answer, one thing that might not have been clarified, if chosing option 1 with a four volley missile where you only roll one d6 to hit.. is a hit inescapable as per a 4 volley missiles or is it only inescapable if you get hit by 4 different templates ? or is maybe never...


If a group attack of 4 missile hit (One attack roll) it is inescapable.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:08 pm
  

D-Bee

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Phaze wrote:
seldonmba wrote:
thanks for the answer, one thing that might not have been clarified, if chosing option 1 with a four volley missile where you only roll one d6 to hit.. is a hit inescapable as per a 4 volley missiles or is it only inescapable if you get hit by 4 different templates ? or is maybe never...


If a group attack of 4 missile hit (One attack roll) it is inescapable.


is that for everyone caught under the blast or only for the sole target of the attack in the case when the attack is not aimed at the ground but rather directed at a specific mecha target?


Thanks for all your work on this, it is a major clarification...


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:26 pm
  

D-Bee

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No kidding. Good to see an official clarification. Bad to see that the intent of the clarification is nothing like the RAW, IMO! :(
Especially the scatter, which clearly talks about multiple attack dice. The Inescapable part seems very potent.

I wonder if the above is how everyone played in testing?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:33 pm
  

D-Bee

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agreed, if the inescapable applies to everyone under the template, combined with the only shoot them down on a 6 looks deadly... if it only applies to the direct target actually hit, the original target (ie when not targeting the ground) then it might be less dramatic


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:04 pm
  

D-Bee

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Meh - inescapable is bad and should be, but I wouldn't worry about it.

The shear volume of 9MD hits that will be happening is what is amazing. There is undeniably a distinct advantage for dividing your missiles up in a volley and targeting different mecha (or spots on the ground) over keeping them together. It is harder to shoot them all down and if they scatter you don't lose any MD (a scatter is always reduced to 1x MD9 missile).

4x mecha with blast weapons of just about any type can fire 16 blast missiles in one close formation barrage - per turn. They can target all 16 missiles at slightly different targets (missiles in volleys can be aimed at different targets within 2" of a target - without needing Split Fire, which can be open ground) and so any and all missiles will have a chance to cause damage to something even if they scatter. Each missile must be dodged on a PER missile basis, not per volley with 3 or less hits and all Anti-missile rolls are only successful on 6s.

If aiming at the ground right in front of your target (and why wouldn't you?), strikes are successful on 2+ if in Close Formation and if the ground is not obscured by cover or if Phalanxes are using the Indirect Fire upgrade. Misses will not happen often - most times just on 1's. Targets saturated by that kind of damage will run out of ways to shrug off hits and will just get picked up - you can only half and pass along so much damage with hit by multiple blast missiles.

Nice to have the rules clarification and thanks for that!

The effect will be that players will only ever want to fire their blast missile volleys seperately - even if just slightly different points on the ground 1-2" apart. they are harder to dodge, harder to shoot down and keep their full MD potential if they scatter. They can cover large areas of the board.

Here is some rough math on the area a barrage can cover: 4x mecha firing 16 Missiles coming from a unit with blast (any unit - I'll keep that generic, but some Mecha are much better than others for delivering Blast missiles) can each brovide a blast marker roughly covering 19 square inches in size - so some 304 square inches can be covered per 4x mecha barrage? they hit on a 2" if in a close formation (and if not it don't matter cause they scatter - still hit something.

That is pretty rough - in truth most of the blast circles will have overlap. But some mecha can provide this type of damage density (9MD to all mecha under the template per 16 templates) for 11 turns!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:47 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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seldonmba wrote:
is that for everyone caught under the blast or only for the sole target of the attack in the case when the attack is not aimed at the ground but rather directed at a specific mecha target?

Thanks for all your work on this, it is a major clarification...


Thanks! I believe it is for all under the template... I'll find out and validate.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:04 pm
  

D-Bee

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To make it easier, for Blast weapons, I recommend just taking a trash can lid and dropping it on the table. Any mecha not covered by the lid or knocked down by the dropping of the lid survives. Repeat as necessary, up to 11 times, until Ammo has been consumed.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:20 pm
  

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First of all, thanks for getting an official answer posted so quickly.

Comment 1: It does say a lot about the company and their dedication to both the game and the players that they roll out rules clarifications that quickly.

Comment 2: WTH? That ruling reads almost nothing like the rule book!?! Who is in charge here? Did anyone proof read this beyond spelling errors? What other pages of the rulebook should be ripped out? Given all the production delays there is no way such a ridiculous discrepancy should be printed.

Question: So you can now shoot at multiple locations if you aim at the ground. Has that always been the case until now? Are there any restrictions on distance (like the 2 inch limit you have on targeting mecha)? If this is made clear somewhere in the rules I apologize for overlooking it. In the end, I think the fact that you just created wholly new rules for this situation you need to create a few more to deal with their consequences. But I do appreciate the effort...


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:03 pm
  

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mrwrightkkpsi wrote:
First of all, thanks for getting an official answer posted so quickly.

Comment 1: It does say a lot about the company and their dedication to both the game and the players that they roll out rules clarifications that quickly.



This is an effort by the MA coordinators to get information to the fans. Palladium is supporting us as coordinators to get this to the players. The coordinators are gamers and volunteers and were able to secure an avenue of discussion to Palladium for this purpose. So this is really about the dedication of Fans of (and with) Palladium. Thank you... and big thanks to Palladium, especially Jeff Burke, who takes my requests for information willingly and enthusiastically.

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:
Comment 2: WTH? That ruling reads almost nothing like the rule book!?! Who is in charge here? Did anyone proof read this beyond spelling errors? What other pages of the rulebook should be ripped out? Given all the production delays there is no way such a ridiculous discrepancy should be printed.


Rhetoric aside...This was a clarification. With no changes to the rules. Blast attacks always rolled one dice to hit, missiles are able to target independently. The paragraph on Page 28 says, “If a missile volley with the blast ability is divided between multiple targets, each individual missile attack must be resolved separately. If any of them missed their intended targets completely, they will scatter separately as well.” This merely clarified on the ability to shoot down missiles, dodge, and roll with impact. Please read the RAW and let me know where the FAQ and the RAW differ and I will (with Palladium's help) try to clear things up. Ripping pages from the book is not necessary.

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:
Question: So you can now shoot at multiple locations if you aim at the ground. Has that always been the case until now? Are there any restrictions on distance (like the 2 inch limit you have on targeting mecha)? If this is made clear somewhere in the rules I apologize for overlooking it. In the end, I think the fact that you just created wholly new rules for this situation you need to create a few more to deal with their consequences. But I do appreciate the effort...


1) Page 16, yes you can target locations on the ground with blast weapons.
2) Per the Volley rule, there is a two inch restriction on targeting missile. Page 29 under Volley.
3) I don't believe it is a wholly new set of rules....but thank you.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:54 pm
  

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1) Page 16's statement that you can target the ground does not address targeting multiple locations on the ground. Hence my question.
2) Page 29 specifically says you can target multiple mecha. '...that target and any other mecha within two inches...' It also says 'At least one of the missiles must target the original target mecha.' There is no mention of targeting multiple spots on the ground in either the firing at the ground, blast, or volley sections- only multiple mecha- hence my question.
3) Since there is no mention in the rulebook about targeting multiple spots on the ground I find that this rule is new. Sorry if that was taken the wrong way.

I do want to point out that I am grateful for your efforts and I am sorry if this is coming off snippy or 'rules-lawyery' but you cannot govern by implication.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:03 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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mrwrightkkpsi wrote:
1) Page 16's statement that you can target the ground does not address targeting multiple locations on the ground. Hence my question.
2) Page 29 specifically says you can target multiple mecha. '...that target and any other mecha within two inches...' It also says 'At least one of the missiles must target the original target mecha.' There is no mention of targeting multiple spots on the ground in either the firing at the ground, blast, or volley sections- only multiple mecha- hence my question.
3) Since there is no mention in the rulebook about targeting multiple spots on the ground I find that this rule is new. Sorry if that was taken the wrong way.

I do want to point out that I am grateful for your efforts and I am sorry if this is coming off snippy or 'rules-lawyery' but you cannot govern by implication.


No worries! I like a good discussion concerning the rules. Its the only way to get to the true intent and good game play.

ok... Good point on the 'mecha'. As it stands now that wording really should be 'target'. Volley allows each missile to target independently. Blast allows them to target the ground. I just verified that these were intended to be used together and not that the rule book was missing something. Now, whether this is balanced is yet to be seen... :twisted: I think I'll take a few rounds of Phalanx vs pods in the near future, to form my own opinion...I'll play the Phalanx... :-P

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:16 pm
  

D-Bee

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Phaze, once again .. thanks for helping us with this!

Did you get any clarification on inescapable?
Even if the inescapable would apply only to the target at the center of the template and not the full blast , that would do a lot for balance... among other things it is harder to hit a mecha than the ground.. and the original 4 missiles hit and inescapable does refer to a direct target not a blast collateral so,maybe that was the concept..

thanks!

great discussion..

Francisco


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:01 pm
  

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Targeting a mecha within 2 inches is for Non-blast missiles against mecha that cannot be seen. You can shoot missiles around corners at mecha you cannot normally target if they are within the allotted 2 inches (pg 29). As stated Volley allows each missile to target independently. Blast allows them to target the ground. Blast missiles are not effected by the 2 inch rule because they can target a point on the ground or a mecha and possibly catch any unseen mecha in the blast with no modifiers to hit. Also shooting the ground requires beating a DEF of 5 to hit.

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 Post subject: Red Duke vs Phaze
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:34 pm
  

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RedDuke- I agree with some of what you say, but not all of it. Yes, volley will allow you to hit mecha you do not have line of site with, but it will also allow you to target things you do have line of site with (-3 to hit is no line of site). It allows you to target multiple mecha without spending additional command points (for additional attacks) or ammunition (in terms of volleys) and without the weapon having rapid fire. It is one of the several advantages that are built in for missile weapons. Blast does not specifically allow you to target the ground- you can target the ground with weapons that do not have blast (pg. 16). It specifically creates an exception for firing blasts weapons (must roll against Def 5 as you stated) but does not keep you from firing non-blst weapons.

I question your 2-inch or not 2-inch interpretation. You state it is not affected by the 2-inch rule but do state that it can target mecha or points on the ground. Therefore, it seems you argue that I can shoot a volley of 4 missiles from a Phalanx targeting a battle pod and three separate points on the ground and that those three points can be anywhere within the range of the weapon. That is clearly against both the spirit and the existing letter of the rules (and that includes both RAW and the clarifications in the FAQ/Errata). I welcome any feedback.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:01 am
  

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So we had a lengthly discussion on the Blast rules Phaze posted on the Facebook page. Here is a summary of what we thought would work better.

Option 1: basically you fire all at one spot, add the damage like one super missile. If you miss they all miss/deviate. If you hit they all hit. If a unit is hit it only pays one CP to attempt to dodge.

Bad: All or nothing to hit.....
Bad: The present rules make deviated shots basically a given to dodge since you need to roll at 1-3 to miss since you only need to hit a DF of 5.
Good: Die rolling iis minimized.

Option 2: basically split up the missiles 1/4 inch apart or more. Roll at attack die for each missile.

Very Very Bad: Defender needs to roll against every single missile with AM. If Defender has no AM or wishes to dodge, he must pay one command point PER UNIT and PER DODGE attempt in order to dodge the missile.
Bad: Misses are again too easy to dodge.

FIX: 1. Each salvo declares location of center of blast and marks it on the table.
2. For each missile roll to strike
3. Deviated shots are moved to new locations
4. Under each individual blast roll for Anti-Missile, remove if successful.
5. Working from one end/blast marker to the other, If a unit wishes to dodge and did not do Anti-Missile and is covered by multiple blast it will only pay one command point and make one dodge roll attempt. If successful at dodging a few of the blasts the other blasts will hit normally. So if one missile hits with a 7, one with a 6 and one with a 5 and you roll a 6 total to dodge (adding in PIL), then only the blast with the result of a 7 strikes the target.
6. Once all the units under one blast marker have been taken care of (AM/Dodge/Roll)remove the marker from the table and move to the next blast marker.
7. Any missiles that missed and deviate count as if they have hit the ground with a DF of 5. So deviated blast missiles are not automatically dodged but AM and other functions are repeated as normal.
8. Units with cover between them and the center of the blast will get the cover bonus.
9. Blasts that roll a high enough DF to hit some targets under the blast radius but not all, such as A Glaug (DF 7) and a Glauf (DF 6) only strike the targets that they roll high enough to meet or exceed the DF for. The reason is that some units like the MAC II and the Glaug have higher DF to represent thicker and harder to penetrate armor. So a Monster will need to be struck with a high enough strike roll as to penetrate the armor. Example is a Monster surrounded by Defenders. The Blast may well strike the target zone but not have the ability to damage the Monster but still damage the Defender.

This reduces the total amount of command points a defender burns when attacked by blast missiles to a more reasonable level. This also increases the effectiveness of missiles that deviate from their target.

And one of the important responses
Robert Shewring So you are proposing that you can still target a spot on the dirt, and that is a roll of a 5 or higher to hit that dirt. if you miss it scatters, but any units that are under the template the missle to hit roll still must exceed their base DF to do damage to that target.
If the missle misses the 5 and scatters, then there is no point in rolling to scatter becuase an attack of 4 or less wont hit a def of a 6 or 7 even if the scatter template still hits the targets, otherwise you are giving the scatter missle 2 chances to hit targets, 1 roll for the initial attack, and then if it misses, another roll to see it if "hits" the targets that are under the template after resolving the scatter.
If that is the case, then the ones that dont "get hit" dont get a chance to shoot down the missle becuase that only works if you are getting "hit". Does that make sense?
I like the idea of one roll dodging multiple blast templates, as that will for sure happen with only a 2 inch spread from each missile, and it wont burn through the defenders command points if they decide to either dodge (if they dont use the anti option) or roll with the damage (again with rolling they roll for all missiles not individual ones if going with the logic so far, though for battle pods a rolling for 2 or more missles will still kill them )
I also like the idea that cover can help with the defence because some of the blast would be absorbed from the cover.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:04 am
  

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Comment: Also known as: Lonnie Langston
The big issue is that BLAST is so wordy and modifies ANTI-MISSILE, MISSILE, and VOLLEY (# & X) to a point of confusion and contradiction. It needs to be kept simple.

BLAST should be treated like all the other MISSILES and even with those with VOLLEY. Only difference is the Template used for BLAST and the modified Natural 6 to shoot down for ANTI-MISSILE.

So now I ask, are people playing where they only roll 1 Die for a Volley of Missiles (at a single target) or are they rolling 1 Die for each Missile in the Volley?

I've played both ways. I find that if you roll 1 Die per Missile in the Volley, Blast isn't the super nasty that it seems to be. (given the higher probability for a Dodge to occur AND be successful), but still is deadly for those hit by it.

Personal Note: My brother and I find the Missile Damages to be so high that it is fueling this discussion. NO ONE wants to get hit by a Blast because it would kill damn near everything under it. And the damage doesn't even follow that rules for the RPG either. In the RPG, Missile Target takes Full Damage. Missile Blast Radius takes Half Damage. Putting this into effect here (Any Model under the center hole of the template takes Full, all those not but still being touched by the template takes Half. Like Warhammer Cannon Shots) and this would likely be a more equalized situation. Otherwise, any Competitive/Tournament situation will likely be dominated by Phalanxes (and Serahaag-Regults).

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:25 am
  

D-Bee

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Ok,
I'm a bit confused...

First of all, I am one of those resisting Facebook so that debate is kind of out of scope for me.

However regarding the proposed fix, a couple of things I don't understand. When you note that if the missile misses the ground spot (5+ ) and scatters there is no point because nobody under the blast will get hit since they'll be 6+ to hit, well not sure why that follows if the to hit roll is only to see where the blast ends and anyone under the blast then takes damage ( no matter if the to hit roll was a 3 and the mechas are 5 or 6s to hit ).

Also as far as I understand this is a proposed fix, correct, not an official ruling ?

I tend to agree with Apocalypse that when played as 1 D per volley it is not supper nasty, except that 4 missile volleys only need to hit with one D6 and they automatically get inescapable like Patack mentioned. Allowing as per current interpretation to target different ground spots like Phaze explained does make it powerful because one volley covers a huge area...

But all of this is a bit hypothetical, I just want to understand what is the current official ruling. As I see it, the only official ruling is what Phaze posted after talking to the design team, correct ?
And under that ruling what still could be clarified is if the inescapable applies to everyone under a 4 missile blast template or only to the target at the center of the template, which could be another interpretation.

Fixes can come later and debated but I want to know how are we to play it today in our group.

PS: Apocalypse, we are having the same issue with blast of course, and my original interpretation of the rules, was just like you as close as possible to the RPG to help me understand the spirit of the rule. One comment on your statements, when you say that 1D roll for blast is less terrible because it is easy to dodge, I agree with that except for the pesky inescapable which again breaks that... What a headache ! :)

thanks

Francisco


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:20 pm
  

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Comment: Also known as: Lonnie Langston
I want to clear something up.

When I first started playing RRT and when missiles were fired, whether in a Volley or Single, we'd only roll ONE (1) Die for the attack, regardless of Missiles fired. This was fast, but also felt very lacking. The all or nothing of the missile shots left something to be desired (and felt wrong).

After doing some looking, we opted to roll ONE (1) Die PER MISSILE FIRED. (i.e. 4 Missile Volley means 4 Dice rolled). This felt rewarding. It feels the same as other attacks. Compared to GU-11 using Rapid Fire (twice, so 3 attack rolls), it was essentially the same mechanic. With Missiles, there are specific rules that call out after Roll to Hit, where they become one attack and what not. This is how we've been playing it since.

Now, could be playing it wrong. Sadly, this isn't a RPG where house rules or interpretations CAN differ. Tabletop games need to be set in stone. There's too much uncertainty with several rules that need to be addressed.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:32 pm
  

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Ok, to clarify a bit more.

Important things to Note on Blast and Missiles
A. Units with cover between them and the center of the blast will get the cover bonus.
B. Missiles are shot down on a 6 by any units using AM under the blast radius.

Points of Debate
A. If I choose a spot on the ground and hit does everything under the blast radius automatically get hit? So if I shoot the ground only needing to make a DF of 5, below a veritech in fighter mode (DF 6), do the veritechs automatically get hit too? The reason is that some units like the MAC II and the Glaug have higher DF to represent thicker and harder to penetrate armor. So a Monster will need to be struck with a high enough strike roll as to penetrate the armor. Example is a Monster surrounded by Defenders. The Blast may well strike the target zone but not have the ability to damage the Monster but still damage the Defender.
B. If 4 Blast missiles target the same spot and all 4 hit are they considered inescapable? Personally I would say yes for continuity.
C. From B it follows what if I spot all 4 missiles .002 inches apart, can I still call the shots if they hit inescapable? I'd say as long as 4 blasts regardless of target cover a unit from a single attack, then yes.
D. Missiles are not designed to hit a "spot". Missiles should have to target a specific unit. If a target's base is within 2 inches of the primary target a blast missile is allowed to be placed over the center of the base of that target. The target must be a feature on the table or a mini. Not a blade of grass on the ground. So a tree or building or something fairly large.
E. If I target flying units presently anything under the blast is hit whether ground or not. Should this change?
F. Missiles used as Anti-Missiles receive a +1 to their AM rolls against Blast missiles (IE they need a 5+)

FIX and how to properly handle Blast:
1. Each salvo first declares location of center of blast and marks it on the table with a die or some other marker. You cannot overlap the normal 16mm dice. If they are close enough that they bump together they are stacked and considered one attack.
2. For each missile roll to strike
3. Deviated shots are moved to new locations and the attack roll re-rolled with GN of 1, disregard the GN of the unit that fired the shot. This allows the possibility of a missed missile to still roll a 7 and hit targets like the Glaug. This also gives only a 50/50 to hit easier targets like Destroids and a 66% of damaging some of the smaller buildings.
4. Under each individual blast roll for Anti-Missile, remove if successful.
5. Working from one end/blast marker to the other, If a unit wishes to dodge and did not do Anti-Missile and is covered by multiple blast it will only pay one command point and make one dodge roll attempt. If successful at dodging a few of the blasts the other blasts will hit normally. So if one missile hits with a 7 one with a 6 and one with a 5 and you roll a 6 total to dodge (adding in PIL), then only the blast with the result of a 7 strikes the target. DO NOT ADD all the damage but resolve each blast individually. Make sure to place any dice for the dodge result next to the target if it is under the blast from another missile as to resolve the next blast results and as to not forget and pay additional command points to dodge again.
6. Once all the units under one blast marker have been taken care of (AM/Dodge/Roll)remove the marker from the table and move to the next blast marker.
7. Any missiles that missed and deviate count as if they have hit the ground with a DF of 5. So deviated blast missiles are not automatically dodged but AM and other functions are repeated as normal.

This reduces the total amount of command points a defender burns when attacked by blast missiles to a more reasonable level. This also increases the effectiveness of missiles that deviate from their target.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:32 pm
  

D-Bee

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I'm leaning more towards keeping Blast-type missiles the exact same as all other missiles (in terms of targeting, volleys, dodging, etc...) except that it gets a blast marker that can obviously expand the pool of effected mecha. That way the only rules clarification would be focused on the blast template itself as opposed to making a new rule around how it is 'delivered'.

I wonder if you can get around the Inescapable part by reading it as only the TARGET is effected by Inescapable (so if you target the ground you may hit more mecha, but you'll give up the Inescapable ability). Then all of the mecha under the blast template take their turns Dodging / Shooting down, or dying...

Fun times!


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:39 pm
  

D-Bee

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ApocalypseZero wrote:
The big issue is that BLAST is so wordy and modifies ANTI-MISSILE, MISSILE, and VOLLEY (# & X) to a point of confusion and contradiction. It needs to be kept simple.


Agreed - and not only is it complicated, but it is incredibly powerful RAW and I suspect Blast weapons of being significantly under-costed in comparison to most other weapons.


ApocalypseZero wrote:
any Competitive/Tournament situation will likely be dominated by Phalanxes (and Serahaag-Regults).


Agreed - but Serahaag-Regults cost the same mecha:mecha as a Phalanx but don't have 44 rounds of ammo or armor. So, really, Phalanxes would dominate very quickly and can take upgrades to have the Indirect Fire rule as well as missiles that negate what meager Anti-missile defenses there are.

My opinion as a miniature wargamer: if blast are not clarified/errata'd/nerfed to pull them inline with the damage potential per point of other weapon systems, this game may not be the best pick for a tourney system. That is not a bad thing necessarily, it just means that Zentraedi specifically may need some help to keep the game fun for all.

Personally - I think we should try using blast targeting/ scattering as written (or as should have been written) but simply remove the disabilities given to blast volleys for dodging and anti-missile. Basically, just treat dodging blast volleys and shooting down missiles that same as if it is any other regular missile volley.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:33 pm
  

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PATACK wrote:
I'm leaning more towards keeping Blast-type missiles the exact same as all other missiles (in terms of targeting, volleys, dodging, etc...) except that it gets a blast marker that can obviously expand the pool of effected mecha. That way the only rules clarification would be focused on the blast template itself as opposed to making a new rule around how it is 'delivered'

Fun times!


I think this is the wrong way to go. You take something that is hard to shoot down and make it even harder by allowing it to target only one mecha and getting only one chance of getting shot down. That is a big part of the problem. Powerful is OK as long as there is an effective counter to offset it. The offset is not that great. I have played both ways and think they do need special rules but they are not something when you try to come up with effective rules for that can be kept really simple and easy and keep them balanced.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:24 pm
  

D-Bee

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Mike1975 wrote:
PATACK wrote:
I'm leaning more towards keeping Blast-type missiles the exact same as all other missiles (in terms of targeting, volleys, dodging, etc...) except that it gets a blast marker that can obviously expand the pool of effected mecha. That way the only rules clarification would be focused on the blast template itself as opposed to making a new rule around how it is 'delivered'

Fun times!


I think this is the wrong way to go. You take something that is hard to shoot down and make it even harder by allowing it to target only one mecha and getting only one chance of getting shot down. That is a big part of the problem. Powerful is OK as long as there is an effective counter to offset it. The offset is not that great. I have played both ways and think they do need special rules but they are not something when you try to come up with effective rules for that can be kept really simple and easy and keep them balanced.


I don't think that is what he meant - the blast template would still bring in other targets that could contribute Anti-missile rolls, be able to dodge, ect. I would also think that performing Anti-missile as normal - 4+/5+ AMM/AMS would also be a good way of taming blast missiles.

I also think it important to note that we don't want to change the blast mechanic too much. We are having trouble now with MD9 blast missiles, but in wave2 there will be a lot of much smaller and less powerful Blast weapons that are not missiles and would be easier to digest.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:30 pm
  

D-Bee

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Not sure I understand the above from Mike. I'm not making it harder to shoot down - I'm making it exactly the same to shoot down as every other missile in the game. Same with targeting - I'm not saying you can ONLY target one mecha - you target just like every other missile in the game. So yes - it is powerful, but you have every chance to avoid getting hit as you do with other missiles.

In summary a Blast-type missile acts like every other missile with the exception of the blast marker which can hit not just the target (ground or a mecha), but things around that target. And you can easily still say any mecha under the template can try and dodge or shoot down and that adds no complexity (although that probably does make this missile more likely to get shot down).


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 Post subject: Fix from the ground up
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:31 pm
  

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Wow. This has taken on a life of it's own at this point. I'm going to apologize in advance if this gets wordy. I also want to point out I have only been participating here so I don't know what has gone down on FB. I think the only way this really gets resolved is to start at the beginning- what does Blast do- or perhaps, what should blast do?

Weapons with blast are some grenade launchers, gigantic cannons, and big missiles. I think the extraneous sentence on pg 16 and the first paragraph under Blast on 27 point to a version of the rules where Blast weapons did not target mecha, only points on the ground. It is only in the second and subsequent paragraphs where they begin to mention a target mecha. I am of the opinion that this was probably batted back and forth a few times (should a blast weapon be able to target a mecha or a spot on the table or both) and it probably started as spot on the ground and ended up as both. The debate probably centered on the best way to represent what you see in the animation but make the rules consistent and fairly simple. Ultimately, long range missiles are the crux of the problem because you want them to be blast weapons but you don't want to have two sets of rules governing missiles based on whether or not they have blast. I don't think anyone would reasonably argue a Monster's cannons are really intended to target a battle pod on the move. That is like a battleship trying to use it's big cannons to fire at an incoming fighter. You might get lucky but that is not how they are meant to work...

So here we are trying to make this all work. After taking in all of these ideas, I am of the opinion you have to start with Blast weapons target a spot and not a mecha. Center your blast template, roll to strike, scatter any misses. Everything under the template after hitting or scattering takes damage or can roll with damage, or dodge (insert debate about dodging this kind of attack here).

How does this now treat a missile or volley of missiles? First off, you should be able to shoot it/them down and I don't find that controversial. Does it need it's own antimissile rule? I would say no but would not fight to the death over it. I will argue that you follow all establish missile and volley rules that this point and scatter the missiles that fail their rolls. Resolve all defensive actions (shoot down, dodge, roll with impact) one blast template at a time in the order the attacking player choses. That's my proposal and I'm sticking to it!

If and when the rules themselves can be agreed upon (and by that I mean any rules, not just they way I have presented them) game balance could be achieved through errata to the range, ammo, volley, and MD of a specific weapon or point value of the mecha. There is already precedent for this as they have modified the ammo of VF-1's with the (ironically) Long Range Missile upgrade. Personally, I can't believe I have spent as much time thinking about this as I have. I welcome any feedback on this. I hope the opening paragraphs explain my train of thought and how I arrived at the conclusions. Ultimately, I think the biggest arguments against this proposal come from 'flavor' (not targeting a mecha) or from a rigid view that the MD, range, etc. should not be modified. Either way, I'm ready to take it...


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:34 pm
  

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MattK512 wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:
PATACK wrote:
I'm leaning more towards keeping Blast-type missiles the exact same as all other missiles (in terms of targeting, volleys, dodging, etc...) except that it gets a blast marker that can obviously expand the pool of effected mecha. That way the only rules clarification would be focused on the blast template itself as opposed to making a new rule around how it is 'delivered'

Fun times!


I think this is the wrong way to go. You take something that is hard to shoot down and make it even harder by allowing it to target only one mecha and getting only one chance of getting shot down. That is a big part of the problem. Powerful is OK as long as there is an effective counter to offset it. The offset is not that great. I have played both ways and think they do need special rules but they are not something when you try to come up with effective rules for that can be kept really simple and easy and keep them balanced.


I don't think that is what he meant - the blast template would still bring in other targets that could contribute Anti-missile rolls, be able to dodge, ect. I would also think that performing Anti-missile as normal - 4+/5+ AMM/AMS would also be a good way of taming blast missiles.

I also think it important to note that we don't want to change the blast mechanic too much. We are having trouble now with MD9 blast missiles, but in wave2 there will be a lot of much smaller and less powerful Blast weapons that are not missiles and would be easier to digest.


If that is the case....fair enough.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:35 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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PATACK wrote:
Not sure I understand the above from Mike. I'm not making it harder to shoot down - I'm making it exactly the same to shoot down as every other missile in the game. Same with targeting - I'm not saying you can ONLY target one mecha - you target just like every other missile in the game. So yes - it is powerful, but you have every chance to avoid getting hit as you do with other missiles.

In summary a Blast-type missile acts like every other missile with the exception of the blast marker which can hit not just the target (ground or a mecha), but things around that target. And you can easily still say any mecha under the template can try and dodge or shoot down and that adds no complexity (although that probably does make this missile more likely to get shot down).


I can see that point. I thought you were eliminating the AM rolls for all except the target.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:37 pm
  

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mrwrightkkpsi wrote:
Wow. This has taken on a life of it's own at this point. I'm going to apologize in advance if this gets wordy. I also want to point out I have only been participating here so I don't know what has gone down on FB. I think the only way this really gets resolved is to start at the beginning- what does Blast do- or perhaps, what should blast do?

Weapons with blast are some grenade launchers, gigantic cannons, and big missiles. I think the extraneous sentence on pg 16 and the first paragraph under Blast on 27 point to a version of the rules where Blast weapons did not target mecha, only points on the ground. It is only in the second and subsequent paragraphs where they begin to mention a target mecha. I am of the opinion that this was probably batted back and forth a few times (should a blast weapon be able to target a mecha or a spot on the table or both) and it probably started as spot on the ground and ended up as both. The debate probably centered on the best way to represent what you see in the animation but make the rules consistent and fairly simple. Ultimately, long range missiles are the crux of the problem because you want them to be blast weapons but you don't want to have two sets of rules governing missiles based on whether or not they have blast. I don't think anyone would reasonably argue a Monster's cannons are really intended to target a battle pod on the move. That is like a battleship trying to use it's big cannons to fire at an incoming fighter. You might get lucky but that is not how they are meant to work...

So here we are trying to make this all work. After taking in all of these ideas, I am of the opinion you have to start with Blast weapons target a spot and not a mecha. Center your blast template, roll to strike, scatter any misses. Everything under the template after hitting or scattering takes damage or can roll with damage, or dodge (insert debate about dodging this kind of attack here).

How does this now treat a missile or volley of missiles? First off, you should be able to shoot it/them down and I don't find that controversial. Does it need it's own antimissile rule? I would say no but would not fight to the death over it. I will argue that you follow all establish missile and volley rules that this point and scatter the missiles that fail their rolls. Resolve all defensive actions (shoot down, dodge, roll with impact) one blast template at a time in the order the attacking player choses. That's my proposal and I'm sticking to it!

If and when the rules themselves can be agreed upon (and by that I mean any rules, not just they way I have presented them) game balance could be achieved through errata to the range, ammo, volley, and MD of a specific weapon or point value of the mecha. There is already precedent for this as they have modified the ammo of VF-1's with the (ironically) Long Range Missile upgrade. Personally, I can't believe I have spent as much time thinking about this as I have. I welcome any feedback on this. I hope the opening paragraphs explain my train of thought and how I arrived at the conclusions. Ultimately, I think the biggest arguments against this proposal come from 'flavor' (not targeting a mecha) or from a rigid view that the MD, range, etc. should not be modified. Either way, I'm ready to take it...


The problem I see is that Blast missiles can also be a HUGE Command Point Drainer, which I do not think was the intention. If you do one at a time a unit may need to pay command points to dodge each and every shot one by one since you resolve each missile individually.


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 Post subject: In my scenario...
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:33 am
  

Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:43 pm
Posts: 26
The only way you burn through any more command points for an individual mecha is if it is overlapping blast templates. While that is possible and powerful, you still can shoot down the missile or volley and all mecha under the blast radius can take a shot (including friendlies...) and if you have an AM weapon it is still free. Plus a blast template is only 5 inches wide. Every roll 5 or greater on scatter (2D6) means no overlap in initial target area. Remember you would be resolving each template, not missile- just as in normal volley rules. 4 hits from a volley 4 weapon = 1 blast template just like being directly hit by a volley of 4 missiles. Shoot down the volley= no damage.

And keep in mind this also: lets just say PB calls me Saturday and says 'Thanks, that is how it is going to work in all future editions' (which is not going to happen) they could just as well finsih with '... and a Phalanx now cost 40 points each and the MD of the weapon is going down to 7.' This is really the point I'm making- there is probably not one single tweak that marries all the inconstancies together and fixes every problem. I think this is really a case of not enough testing the rules as they ended up being printed- I think they tested many variations and probably had many people write sample rules and when it all got mashed together for printing we ended up with mashed up incomplete ideas. All that being said, rules need to be consistent. Once those are decided on or clarified or whatever, then we could revisit other aspects too.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:13 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:00 pm
Posts: 334
if more than one missile is fired by a mecha the shots will always have some overlap


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