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 Post subject: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:49 pm
  

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Anyone else finding Blast Missiles (Phalanx, I'm looking at you) a serious pain in the butt? Volley of 4 are Inescapable and then Shooting down even with Anti-Missiles , requires a 6! I've watched 2 games of Phalanx fire cripple opponents on turn one just because of this. Is there an errata to this? I would think just because it's a Blast Missile wouldn't change my Anti-Missile weapon from a 4 or 5 to a 6!

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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:49 pm
  

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D-Bee

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The Phalanx is OP at the moment, at least until the Zentraedi get some Gnerls or FPAs. I played today with just two phalanx and they destroyed 16+ battle pods. I don't like the 6+ rule either. Perhaps anti-missile missiles should shoot down a blast missile volly on a 5+?


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:38 pm
  

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Missiles are only Inescapable if 4 or more hit, not fired. So Volley 4 needs all 4 missiles to strike a single target. It's the danger of firing all your missiles at one target because one good anti missile shot takes them all out.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:45 pm
  

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A few suggestions, until official errata

Weapon systems with the Blast ability cause huge explosions that have the chance of damaging not only the target figure or location, but also other figures or structures nearby. When a figure makes a Blast attack, the roll to Strike is made as normal to see if it hits its intended target. Direct fire weapons such as the cannons on the Monster can be targeted to hit any spot or location at a DF of 5. Missiles with the Blast trait must be fired at a terrain feature such as a tree or building (something over ¾ inches tall) or at a unit such as an enemy mecha and the blast template is centered over the target. Missiles with the Blast trait cannot normally be targeted at a specific spot such as a corner of a building or spot on the ground. Missiles with the Indirect Fire and Blast traits can be targeted at a specific spot at a DF of 5.

This help reduce the Blast Effect. Also note volley rules allow missiles to be targeted ONLY at targets within 2 inches of the original target. Also take note that each Blast missile is taken into account and counted as a separate attack so they you cannot hit with 4+ of them since they are resolved individually.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:57 am
  

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Anything with the Volley or Volley X ability can choose to divide its number of missiles fired between multiple targets or have them all hit 1 target. If all missiles are shot at 1 target, it's ONE roll for the whole volley.

Phalanx has Volley 4 and Blast.
Serahaug-Regults have Volley X and Blast.

If either of those shoot 4 Missiles at 1 Target, then that Blast becomes Inescapable and only shot down on a 6!
All other targets hit by the Blast are Inescapable and shot down on a 6!

I watched an Area Denial Squadron get ripped apart by 2 Phalanx.

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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:14 am
  

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If you read Blast you will also see that missiles are treated as individual attacks if you attack more than one target. So you can shoot two missiles at one target and one at each of his wingmen and it is treated as 3 separate attacks. That includes scatter. Besides, you still have to hit with all 4 dice to make it inescapable.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:24 am
  

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A rule where you cannot shoot a spot on the ground but must hit a target would also help. If you hit a spot on the ground next to a Glaug with an attack roll of 4 and +2 for GUN for a total of 6, does the Glaug get hit since it has a DF of 7? What happens if you attack a Gnerl in the Air with a DF of 7? Do you still need to hit a DF of 7 or can I target a spot in the air (that makes no sense to me but is technically possible) at a DF of 5 and hit all the units.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:29 pm
  

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Mike1975 wrote:
A rule where you cannot shoot a spot on the ground but must hit a target would also help. If you hit a spot on the ground next to a Glaug with an attack roll of 4 and +2 for GUN for a total of 6, does the Glaug get hit since it has a DF of 7? What happens if you attack a Gnerl in the Air with a DF of 7? Do you still need to hit a DF of 7 or can I target a spot in the air (that makes no sense to me but is technically possible) at a DF of 5 and hit all the units.


Hitting a spot on the ground with a blast to capture a higher defense Mecha is the same as hitting a low defense Mecha to also capture a higher defense Mecha. The defense of blast-engulfed targets don't matter.

I do agree that blast doesn't account for altitude differences, so hitting a ground target (whether a Mecha or a spot) and capturing aerial targets in the blast is a bit wonky as-is. Not sure the best way to work that out if we got a rules update on it, besides tracking altitude and giving the blast a vertical component equal to it's radius (basically a hemisphere).

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:14 pm
  

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That's part of the conundrum. Gnerls have a DF of 7. If you roll to hit a DF of 5 as if shooting a spot, are they also hit with the blast? Just because a Spartan is within the Blast radius of a Defender that gets hit does he also take damage? Higher DF is not only to represent faster and move maneuverable but also harder armor. Look at the Monster. So it would not be fair to let the monster take damage on a roll of a 5 when it's got a thick hide. I think that even if you hit one target you should still need to meet or exceed the DF values of the rest of the units under the blast to damage them. Look at the Arty Pods, DF 5. Can you hit them and then automatically hit all the other Pods around it? I think it needs clarification.

Now as far as land vs air.

Correction/Modification?????
Note: Both friendly and enemy figures can be hit and damaged by the scattered Blast attack. Also take note that Blast attacks hit a defined area. If a blast attack hits a unit on the ground and units with Flight are within the blast the mecha with flight under the marker get a free dodge attempt IF they have not used Anti-Missile to attempt to shoot down the missile. The opposite will also be in effect. If the blast was targeted at one or more Aircraft or other flying units then any land based units incapable of flight may be too far below the target mecha above them to be affected by the blast and will get a free dodge attempt if they do not use Anti-Missile to try to shoot down the missile. (Not Perfect but a suggestion that can be worked on)

Now as far as scattered shots....What happens if you roll a 1 and the shot scatters, does that make the other units automatically dodge the blast from the scattered shot?

Correction/Modification?????
Now determine which figure (if any) are struck and damaged as outlined above for when a Blast attack hits, based on the new location of the Blast template. Any figures on the new location can attempt to Dodge, but must equal or exceed a 5 or the original Strike roll for the Blast attack, whichever is higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:57 pm
  

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I think you're looking for clarification because you don't like the rule, not because it is unclear. The Blast rules are very well defined and simple to boot. There are only 2 options for the Blast, either it strikes it's intended target or it doesn't.

If the blast strikes, then any mecha (my emphasis) under the template takes damage. No mention of defense differences are there because they don't need to be. Also no mention of flying vs ground are mentioned because they don't need to be.

If the blast misses, it deviates, and anything under the deviated template takes damage. In both cases, dodges are against the roll to strike result, so in your example of the missed shot on a 1, then only a 1 on a subsequent dodge roll would fail. In fact, since the lowest defense I think is a 5, that makes most misses a 4 or less, and with most Mecha having at least a PIL of 2, then really only a 1 would fail regardless of the missed Blast roll. Deviated blast attacks are easy to Dodge, just need to spend the CPs to do so.

Is it a realistic representation of how a blast works in real life - no. Does it suck that my opponent can target my DEF 5 Mecha in order to hit my DEF 7 Glaug - Yes. But if my opponent is fielding Blast weapons, then I'm going to spread out a bit more to minimize the damage.

If you're looking to make a house rule on Blasts, I would instead recommend that anything caught in the Blast takes half MD (round down). This is how most other game systems work when dealing with blast templates. That way you can target the ground or another Mecha to try and template damage a higher DEF one, but they only take a proton of the full damage. If you want to do full damage to my Glaug, then try and target the Glaug instead.

The more rules and exception-based scenarios you try and account for in a game system, the more bogged down it becomes. I for one prefer a streamlined system vs. a rules-intense system. Anyone ever play Advanced Squad Leader? Play that, then try a game like Lock n Load: Band of Heroes next. You get the same general feel squad-level of a WWII game, but in significantly less time and effort with LnL.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:36 pm
  

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My bigger issue with Blast is with Missiles.....

Why does a Missile with Blast suddenly cause my Anti-Missile Systems to be as effective as my non-AMS weapons? Just because it is Blast? And let's be real, Blast would happen upon impact, so it's still a missile like any other to be shot down, but because it has Blast, it suddenly isn't?

If they took the Anti-Missiles need a 6 for Blast, it wouldn't be so bad. Wondering if there is a typo or a missed revision with that somewhere......(after reading beta test rules and new rules....)

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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:38 pm
  

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An issue we did run into this weekend with Blast was what happens during a simultaneous attack, when you have 2 blast weapons designated at 2 different targets that happen to overlap each other. Per the rules, after all shots are designated, you then pick one target and resolve all it's attacks. During that first Blast resolution, the 2nd Blast target was killed. What happens to my 2nd Blast?

Here are my choices, in the order I think they would be applicable
1. If automatically misses and deviates
2. Since it's a simultaneous attack, I still roll vs. the original target's DEF
3. Since the target was killed, I roll to strike the ground beneath it
4. I can pick a new target for the blast
5. Something entirely different.

Thanks,
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:55 pm
  

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Okay, sitting down with the rules without the pressure of playing a game, I see where my eyes skipped over something on Blast Missiles and Anti-Missiles.

Anyone hit by a Blast Missile can make an Anti-Missile roll. The roll needs a 6 to succeed, but if ONE mecha succeeds the roll, NO damage is done. I like this. I can see why a 6 is needed if 2-6 models might be able to make an Anti-Missile roll. So, I cleared up my own issue (which is nice).

Axoid, for your situation above, #2 is correct. The model still counts as Alive for purpose of shooting. One way to handle 'Simultaneous' attacks is to lay the model down if it dies. It's still there, but will die at the end of the squad activation.

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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:46 pm
  

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ApocalypseZero wrote:
Okay, sitting down with the rules without the pressure of playing a game, I see where my eyes skipped over something on Blast Missiles and Anti-Missiles.

Anyone hit by a Blast Missile can make an Anti-Missile roll. The roll needs a 6 to succeed, but if ONE mecha succeeds the roll, NO damage is done. I like this. I can see why a 6 is needed if 2-6 models might be able to make an Anti-Missile roll. So, I cleared up my own issue (which is nice).

Yes, that's a good catch, and makes it a bit easier to shoot down blasts. 5 models affected, 5 die rolls to try an get a six. You just need to pay Command Points for any weapons systems that don't have the anti-missile trait. We used it this weekend and it was effective in shooting down the blasts. That's why I like the Phalanx's Scorpio upgrade, as it can't be shot down (special rule) or dodged (Inescapable).

ApocalypseZero wrote:
Axoid, for your situation above, #2 is correct. The model still counts as Alive for purpose of shooting. One way to handle 'Simultaneous' attacks is to lay the model down if it dies. It's still there, but will die at the end of the squad activation.


I can see that. I think we'll go with that option until we hear otherwise. You can remove the model and place a target counter in its place, to mark the blast's origin.

Thanks,
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:15 pm
  

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Check out page 10 of the rulebook, it specifically talks about ignoring elevation, even on aerial models.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:31 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Axoid wrote:
Check out page 10 of the rulebook, it specifically talks about ignoring elevation, even on aerial models.


Which is correct per RAW and the desire to keep the game a fast paced game. Will it have an option to change in some advanced rules.....likely.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:11 pm
  

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Axoid wrote:
An issue we did run into this weekend with Blast was what happens during a simultaneous attack, when you have 2 blast weapons designated at 2 different targets that happen to overlap each other. Per the rules, after all shots are designated, you then pick one target and resolve all it's attacks. During that first Blast resolution, the 2nd Blast target was killed. What happens to my 2nd Blast?

Here are my choices, in the order I think they would be applicable
1. If automatically misses and deviates
2. Since it's a simultaneous attack, I still roll vs. the original target's DEF
3. Since the target was killed, I roll to strike the ground beneath it
4. I can pick a new target for the blast
5. Something entirely different.

Thanks,
Don


Yeah the big issue here is that it's Simultaneous meaning that (and this isn't official) To make something properly simultaneous you would have to do it in specific steps.
Step 1- declare all tagets atacks and weapon systems.
Step 2- Roll all to hit rolls leaving them on the table for possible dodge referances (just my suggestion)
Step 3- Roll to dodge or shoot down for all shots that hit
Step 4- Apply All damage done to all effected models
Step 5- Optionaly spend CP to roll with impact and lessn damage.
Step 6- Remove all casualties and mark final damage.

using a step by step to make it Truely Simultaneous your model wouls still be standing and still be the target for all missles to roll to hit and not removed from the table untill after all to hit rols and such are fully resolved.

Mostly this is just a suggestion but honestly I don't know of a better way to make things Occur Truely Simultaneous.

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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:11 pm
  

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Malcontent-Khyron wrote:
Axoid wrote:
An issue we did run into this weekend with Blast was what happens during a simultaneous attack, when you have 2 blast weapons designated at 2 different targets that happen to overlap each other. Per the rules, after all shots are designated, you then pick one target and resolve all it's attacks. During that first Blast resolution, the 2nd Blast target was killed. What happens to my 2nd Blast?

Here are my choices, in the order I think they would be applicable
1. If automatically misses and deviates
2. Since it's a simultaneous attack, I still roll vs. the original target's DEF
3. Since the target was killed, I roll to strike the ground beneath it
4. I can pick a new target for the blast
5. Something entirely different.

Thanks,
Don


Yeah the big issue here is that it's Simultaneous meaning that (and this isn't official) To make something properly simultaneous you would have to do it in specific steps.
Step 1- declare all tagets atacks and weapon systems.
Step 2- Roll all to hit rolls leaving them on the table for possible dodge referances (just my suggestion)
Step 3- Roll to dodge or shoot down for all shots that hit
Step 4- Apply All damage done to all effected models
Step 5- Optionaly spend CP to roll with impact and lessn damage.
Step 6- Remove all casualties and mark final damage.

using a step by step to make it Truely Simultaneous your model wouls still be standing and still be the target for all missles to roll to hit and not removed from the table untill after all to hit rols and such are fully resolved.

Mostly this is just a suggestion but honestly I don't know of a better way to make things Occur Truely Simultaneous.


All of which is actually pretty easy and how I play it now. I use glass beads to mark attacks when they are simultaneous.


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:20 pm
  

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Yea I think It was maybe the second time we played when we realized Simultaneous just Had to be done In steps to make sense of it all. Glad you agree Mike, Makes me feel a little more confidednt with our ruling in house.

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Why are they using such primative weapons?


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 Post subject: Re: Blast Rule....
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:11 pm
  

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In Close Formation = Simultaneous
In Same Squadron but not in Close Formation with other fighters = Not Simultaneous

So if you have a squadron of 6 VT's (Squadron + Squad) and you split it in half and that half is in Close Formation, then each "half" will fire as if it were Simultaneous fire. A good reason to split squadrons. One half can blow away pods in front of Glaug while the other cleans up.


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