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 Post subject: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:42 pm
  

D-Bee

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The GU-11 gun pod has the rapid fire description. It can be fired an extra time through the expenditure of a Command Point. In battloid mode, it says these guns may be fired an additional time. Does that make 3 times at the cost of 3 CP? Can Roy Fokker fire his four times at 4 CP?


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:14 pm
  

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jdseibert wrote:
The GU-11 gun pod has the rapid fire description. It can be fired an extra time through the expenditure of a Command Point. In battloid mode, it says these guns may be fired an additional time. Does that make 3 times at the cost of 3 CP? Can Roy Fokker fire his four times at 4 CP?


I would say No... The GU-11 is Rapid Fire. The range doubles In Battloid and you can rapid fire an additional time.

If you use the GU-11 as the first free shot:

1) in Battloid you can fire up to twice more for 1CP each shot, hence firing three times for 2CP...all at double the range.
2) in Guardian Mode, you can only fire once more for 1CP
3) in Fighter you can't fire additional Rapid Fire shots limiting the GU-11 (or any weapon system) to the first free shot.

Why would Roy get another attack using the GU-11? You can only fire the GU-11 a maximum of three times in battloid per activation.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:53 am
  

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I would disagree, about Rapid Fire more than once. I think the Battloid description is just restating the Rapid Fire rule because it also is stating the double range. Looking at Rapid Fire itself, it says "Rapid Fire weapon systems may be fired one additional time each turn..." not "...may be fired more than once each turn..."

It's a little unclear, and doesn't help my argument, that they also didn't put the same wording under the Guardian mode about firing an additional time with Rapid Fire.

Also, under the battloid description, the wording is

"GU-11 range is doubled and can be used to Rapid Fire an additional time each turn" not "GU-11 range is doubled and can use Rapid Fire an additional time each turn"

I know it's a slight wording change, but it makes a big difference I think. The printed wording describes what Rapid Fire does, while the second wording states that Rapid Fire can be used again.

My 2c.

Thanks,
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:18 am
  

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Yea, I originally thought that too and even worded a response to that effect. But before I posted it I reviewed the card and the book, and noticed the same thing you just pointed out...

On the card: GU-11 Gun Pod Weapon description: "Rapid Fire, RG:24 in Battloid Mode" Notice the comma. meaning the rapid fire is seperate from the range increase. It did not say 'Rapid Fire AND RG:24'

In the Book: Under the weapon description on the Valkyries: "RG 12 (or 24 in Battloid Mode), MD: 6, Rapid Fire" Further making the distinction that Rapid Fire is separate from the Range increase.

On the Card: The GU-11 special function is only listed in the Battloid stats on the front of the card.
On the Card: Under the GU-11 special: "While in Battloid mode Range is doubled and can be used to rapid fire an additional time."

In the Book: Under the Battloid description it read the same as the card: "While in Battloid mode Range is doubled and can be used to rapid fire an additional time."

So the above illustrates, the Rapid Fire is separate from the range increase, indicating that it is a weapon function and not tied to the Battloid mode alone, thus allowing the Guardian Mode to Rapid Fire as it did not say 'Rapid Fire in Battloid mode'. The Fighter mode can't rapid fire due to the Fast Mover rule.

So if the Guardian Mode can Rapid Fire, the Battloid can “rapid fire an additional time." per the GU-11 Special.

But now for the subjective view point... MISSILES! Why would anyone want to go to Battloid mode when you still have those pretty missiles on the wings. Battloid is the weakest form of the three modes IMO. By beefing up the shots and range for the GU-11 in Battloid, it at least gives a use for the Battloid Mode when you run out of the missiles. So I could understand why the Battloid Mode would have a more powerfull weapon.

Just my nickle... with inflation and all.

:-D feel free to poke holes in my viewpoint though.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:57 am
  

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All good points for the use of rapid fire twice while in battloid mode. I would be fine if it ends up being the way it is, I was more playing devil's advocate.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:04 pm
  

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And it is a good thing you do. This should be a community effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:35 am
  

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I'd have to disagree here. I honestly think it's just reiteration poorly worded. Getting 3 shots for 1 CP would make the GU-11 horribly powerful and it already is a pretty powerful weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:50 am
  

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I would suspect that if it is indeed a third shot or second rapid fire shot then it would still fall under the rules of 1 CP for extra shots so 2CP to make three shots with the gun pod. I think this interpretation of the description actually gives me a reason to have my Valkyries in Battloid for the first time in a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:23 pm
  

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Have a 6 damage gun that can Rapid Fire and having a higher gunnery in Battloid mode is vicious. The first couple games I played I kept the VT's in Guardian so I could still use the missiles and have a better DF. If you have a Battloid in some cover the GU-11 is NASTY.

1. The higher GN means that the shots are harder to dodge.
2. Not being a missile weapon means there is no free chance for a pod to shoot the shot down.
3. Enemy Battlepods MUST dodge, roll or die. The only other option is to shield one another when in Close Formation.

The ideal defense is to have one Pod Shield another so that each takes 3, don't even try to dodge, just have each pod Roll with Impact and then instead of a dead pod you have 2 pods that each took 1 point of damage. This is also where the Defender with Air-Burst munitions shines.....


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:12 pm
  

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Mike1975 wrote:
I'd have to disagree here. I honestly think it's just reiteration poorly worded. Getting 3 shots for 1 CP would make the GU-11 horribly powerful and it already is a pretty powerful weapon.


Based on the wording I 'd say it would be 3 shots for 2 CP not one. I mostly agree with Phaze especially because the wording is , May Rapid Fire an additional time. Since rapid fire costs 1 cp then 2 rapid fires 2 cp.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:05 pm
  

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Normally you cannot fire any weapon twice. The GU-11 can be fired twice with the Rapid Fire rule. This costs a single command point for the second shot. There is no third shot with the GU-11. Since you are in Battloid mode you can use the range of 24 inches per shot.
Any Character rules may further alter firing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:32 pm
  

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funny, thats not what the rules as written say. "may rapid fire an additional time".. as in, in addition to the normal 1 rapid fire the GU-11 can do in any other mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:35 pm
  

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I would disagree, I understand the RAW, but it's more a matter of poorly written fluff trying to match the intent. 3 shots or even 2 shots is a bit overpowered for those who have played the game a few times. Even 2 allows a lot of firepower.

The GU-11 CANNOT Rapid Fire in Fighter it Guardian modes, only Battloid, hence the description, although badly written.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:45 pm
  

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See the third post on why I think RF cannot be used more than once. But it can be used in Guardian mode, why do you say it can only be used in battling mode Mike. The Gunpod is a base weapon system of a Valkyrie, and it has Rapid Fire, not any one mode. Also, fighter mode has Fast Mover, which specifically cancel Rapid Fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:31 pm
  

D-Bee

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my vote is in the camp of can be fired a third time, since there would be ZERO reason to write "can be rapid fired one additional time this turn" if it didnt work like that, since the gunpod itself already has rapid fire as a base rule and the extra sentence would be completely redundant if it did not actually give a third short.

yes 3 shots can be extremely powerful, especially when used at gunnery 3-4, but it is also a giant drain on command points. not to mention you have to declare all your targets with your shots before you even begin shooting. so if they want to fire 3 times at 3 different battlepods for example, you run a high risk of destroying none of them (close formation damage shuffling, and roll with impact) and if you declare multible shots at a single target then you run the risk of overkill.

not to mention if you want an entire valkyrie squadron to shift over to battleoid mode where they are hilariously vulnerable to damage (lower defense, no hover), you are basically going full offense sacrificing a big chunk of command points that could have been used for defense.

granted as always this is just an opinion and i could be completely wrong.

i think the best bet is to discuss this with your opponent before battle, and decide how you are going to do it. if you have a play group try and get everyone together to agree on a group rule, or if you are in a game store come up with a store rule. at least until an FAQ comes out.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:49 pm
  

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Mike1975 wrote:
I would disagree, I understand the RAW, but it's more a matter of poorly written fluff trying to match the intent. 3 shots or even 2 shots is a bit overpowered for those who have played the game a few times. Even 2 allow a lot of firepower.

The GU-11 CANNOT Rapid Fire in Fighter it Guardian modes, only Battloid, hence the description, although badly written.


Why do you say it cannot rapid fire in Guardian mode? Under the gun stats it states "Rapid Fire" with no link to the Battloid restriction, AND is specifically separated from range bonus... In the Book: Under the weapon description on the Valkyries: "RG 12 (or 24 in Battloid Mode), MD: 6, Rapid Fire” The weapon is Rapid Fire... I don't care what mode you are in. Flight mode restricts fire to one shot. So that is the only mode IMO that it cannot fire twice.

So again I have to point out that if Guardian can Rapid Fire, then Battloid can rapid fire 'an additional time'.

I would be ok if it goes either way. However, I would be surprised if I am wrong, because the Battloid mode isn't very strong unless you can pour CP into it and have deal some damage and it would mean that the creators were not only unclear in ONE sentence, but in many aspects of the description of this weapon and failed to get their point across in no less than five different instances where this weapon is described.

warmaster21 wrote:
i think the best bet is to discuss this with your opponent before battle, and decide how you are going to do it. if you have a play group try and get everyone together to agree on a group rule, or if you are in a game store come up with a store rule. at least until an FAQ comes out.


Great advice!

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:06 pm
  

D-Bee

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Seems pretty clear to me that Battloids can Rapid Fire their GU-11 twice (hence "an additional time"), provided you can spend 2 Command Points, one for each additional shot.

Would be nice to have an official ruling. Does anyone official monitor, and reply on, these forums?


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:24 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Your right, I was zoned out, you can Rapid Fire in the other modes, just the range is half. I still think that allowing 2 shots for battloid free of charge is a bit too much firepower. That means they can easily kill 2 pods or a Glaug, especially with the higher gunnery that battloid ALREADY gives the VF. Errata will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:24 pm
  

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does it say free of charge though? according to the rulebook, the use of rapid fire costs a command point. one would presume that a battloid able to rapid fire twice would need a command point for each... meaning your shot limit is 3, but you need 2 CP per mecha to reach it.

compare this to the special ability of the Spartan special pilot, which specifies that he gets his extra HtH attack for free,

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:32 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
does it say free of charge though? according to the rulebook, the use of rapid fire costs a command point. one would presume that a battloid able to rapid fire twice would need a command point for each... meaning your shot limit is 3, but you need 2 CP per mecha to reach it.


No...not free. If you used its first shot as the free shot then the extra shots would cost you one CP each. 3 shots for 2 CP. If you used another weapon as the free shot, then it would cost you 3 CP to fire all three times.

ThunderingAsteroids wrote:
Would be nice to have an official ruling. Does anyone official monitor, and reply on, these forums?


Confirmed list of questions are in the designers hands, NMI and I have delivered it to them. Only time will tell when we get answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:33 pm
  

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I dont say this to be insulting in any way please don't take it as such. But im Very confident that phaze is correct on this assessment.

The rules seem pretty clear how they read to me Rapid fire an additional time, means 2cp for 3 shots If a battleoid chooses to fire the gu-11 three times.

Obviously the official FAQ will eventually decide this but my local group and I are Pretty confident that this is not only how the rule reads, but also the intention of the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:30 am
  

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I think I was right I just had to go back and look it up to have some reasoning to share.

After reading the description you could also interpret the GU-11 this way...Rapid Fire is ONLY in Battloid, here is why.....if you look on the mecha card it shows "Rapid Fire and RG 24 in Battloid Mode" all in italics. From that you can see that Rapid Fire is also added in Battloid mode. Hence the GU-11 cannot use Rapid Fire in any mode other than Battloid and can use Rapid Fire and fire 2x (Not 3x) in Battloid mode. So the description is correct if you know that Rapid Fire is ONLY in Battloid.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:50 am
  

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the problem is the entry for the VF-1's go:
GU-11 Gun Pod: 55mm Triple barrel rotary cannon - Rg12 (or 24 in battloid), MD 6, Rapid Fire

under weapon systems.. which are used in all modes.

then it says;
Battloid mode:
hands, its GU-11 range is double and can be used to rapid fire an additional time each turn

which means that additional time each turn in addition to the rapid fire the GU-11 can do normally.. and this is repeated for every VF-1 variant.

fighter mode has a special rule that prevents rapid fire, but guardian does not.. meaning it can use a normal rapid fire in guardian mode.

and in battloid, it can rapid fire an additional time, so it can rapid fire twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:46 am
  

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It's Book Contradicting Mecha Cards....so will depend on errata. Both clearly contradict if you look at the card.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:47 am
  

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Will cards trump book as new stuff is released? Likely.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:00 am
  

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funny.. the card says the exact same thing as the book

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:14 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
funny.. the card says the exact same thing as the book


No it does not, on an entirely different like in italics you have both the Rapid Fire and Increased Range and it says in battloid mode after. Having it all in italics means that Rapid Fire AND Range 24 are both added in Battloid mode. Not in the other modes. Subtle but an important difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:08 pm
  

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it says in the weapon stats (that all modes use) that is is rapid fire.

then in the battloid mode modifications (which add on to the base stats), it lists "can rapidfire an additional time"

so the card is saying the exact same thing as the book.. it can rapid fire in guardian.. and rapid fire 2x in battloid.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:18 pm
  

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Errata will tell. Awaiting reponse to my list from the MAs.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:28 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
it says in the weapon stats (that all modes use) that is is rapid fire.

then in the battloid mode modifications (which add on to the base stats), it lists "can rapidfire an additional time"

so the card is saying the exact same thing as the book.. it can rapid fire in guardian.. and rapid fire 2x in battloid.


Incorrect, the card does not say that it has Rapid Fire in any mode Except it adds it for Battloid. Again, errata is needed but book and cards contradict.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:47 am
  

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so evidently i'm just hallucinating then?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... ca2818.png

the weapons listing is for all modes.

the battloid modifiers state "an additional time'..

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:34 pm
  

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Yes, like I said, Rapid fire and RG 24 are both in the same line and in Italics so Rapid Fire could be construed as being added in Battloid mode only. It can go either way. So if you choose to hallucinate...that's something on your own time. No use in being petulant.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:50 pm
  

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Mike1975 wrote:
Yes, like I said, Rapid fire and RG 24 are both in the same line and in Italics so Rapid Fire could be construed as being added in Battloid mode only. It can go either way. So if you choose to hallucinate...that's something on your own time. No use in being petulant.

except the italics aren't representing alternate rules.. they reflect that they are game rules in general. the non-italic part is just a descriptive text; "GU-11 gunpod: 55mm triple barreled rotary cannon" is the weapons NAME.
the blue boxes are it's main stats.. MD6, Rg12
the italics are it's RULES. Rapid Fire, range 24 in battloid.

that is, it is rapid fire.. and in battloid it becomes range 24.

if it wasn't rapid fire normally, the wording would have been 'range 24 and rapidfire in battloid' (or something similar)

and the battloid mode adjustments would have said 'while in battloid the range is doubled and the weapon gains rapid fire" (or something similar)

but they didn't.. they list rapid fire with the base stats.. and under battloid mode they said it can rapid fire an additional time.

ergo, it can normally rapid fire.. and in battloid it can rapid fire twice.

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Last edited by glitterboy2098 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:58 pm
  

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Mike1975 wrote:

Incorrect, the card does not say that it has Rapid Fire in any mode Except it adds it for Battloid. Again, errata is needed but book and cards contradict.


I think what GB was referencing was this line of yours, since the weapon itself has the Rapid Fire special ability (both on the card and in the book), and therefore can be used in any mode except where trumped by another special ability (like Fast Mover for instance.) Your argument is akin to saying that the anti-missile of the head leaser can't be used at all, since it's not listed in any of the modes or called out specifically again anywhere in italics.

Listing it again under Battloid mode gives credit to the notion that it can be used again to fire the gunpod 3 times, though I still choose to disagree on that point :)

Thanks,
Don


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:53 pm
  

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Axoid wrote:
Mike1975 wrote:

Incorrect, the card does not say that it has Rapid Fire in any mode Except it adds it for Battloid. Again, errata is needed but book and cards contradict.


I think what GB was referencing was this line of yours, since the weapon itself has the Rapid Fire special ability (both on the card and in the book), and therefore can be used in any mode except where trumped by another special ability (like Fast Mover for instance.) Your argument is akin to saying that the anti-missile of the head leaser can't be used at all, since it's not listed in any of the modes or called out specifically again anywhere in italics.

Listing it again under Battloid mode gives credit to the notion that it can be used again to fire the gunpod 3 times, though I still choose to disagree on that point :)

Thanks,
Don



I understand his point, he chooses to use it a proof of his idea, I'm saying that it is still ambiguous and errata is needed. Simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:58 pm
  

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By the logic being used by some people here then the range in Battleoid would be 48. Because it'd be 24 from the weapon, then doubled by the "special ability" GU-11 Gunpod. I mean, it's the same way you're reading getting two uses of rapid fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:34 pm
  

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actually it's not ambiguous at all.. it's pretty clear. especially the addition of "an additional time", which is pretty tortuous phrasing otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:59 pm
  

D-Bee

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I seriously hope we get an official clarification on this soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:41 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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The fires an additional time language shows on the VT's and Supers, but is conspicuously absent on the Armored VT's


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:03 pm
  

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ummmm... Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the armored VT is not able to transform until it jettisons its extra armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:31 pm
  

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and they're wearing a couple dozen extra tons of bulky, movement restricting armor and missiles?

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:55 pm
  

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I do find the rules to be rather clear and non ambiguous, If the weapon appears in the discription of the unit. Then it functions that way in all forms hence repid fire. Unless the form changes something. Like no rapid fire for fighter mode, or Additional rapid fire for battleoid with 24" range. seems oddly clear I must be missing something that is making this seem uncertain to some.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:12 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
and they're wearing a couple dozen extra tons of bulky, movement restricting armor and missiles?


None of which restricts a Battloid from simply pulling the trigger.....


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:13 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Phaze wrote:
ummmm... Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the armored VT is not able to transform until it jettisons its extra armor.


I see the point I just disagree, we are not talking about any other mode than Battloid and both are in Battloid mode


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:17 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:00 pm
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The Jotun does not have the same language either, likely since they do not transform it was left off by accident.


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