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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:23 pm
  

D-Bee

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1) Special Characters - specifically the Zentraedi characters that can use Regults, Grell and Pirion-Galarr (p.68). What happens when they are eliminated from a unit subject to the Reinforcement rule, can they return to play? Also, since they are in a mecha that cannot contribute VPs via the 'Life is Cheap' ability does an opponent get VPs for destroying them?

2) Crossfire (p.19) - The rule states that eligible units "gain the [i]Crossfire bonus[i] if they attack simultaneously (like close formation)". Is the crossfire bonus only available to units of the same squadron attacking in close formation? The diagram Figure 4 contradicts this as the units are clearly not in close formation, but when or how does a unit attack simultaneously if it is not in close formation? Why does the sentence not end after the word "bonus"?

3) VPs - How precisely does a player earn VPs from a Zentraedi Attack Squadron considering the Reinforcement ability? Does a player still have to destroy half/all the unit? How is that determined for a regenerating regult unit? Is it intended that a Zentraedi player can create a 0 VP force (All Attrition Squadrons and Regult squads plus Grell) and, at worst, tie any VP based scenario? At best win by destroying 2 enemy mecha from the same squadron regardless of losses?


Last edited by Very Fun One Jr on Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:50 pm
  

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Comment: Pirate Wisdom:
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I'll try this out...

Very Fun One Jr wrote:
1) Special Characters - specifically the Zentraedi characters that can use Regults, Grell and Pirion-Galarr (p.68). What happens when they are eliminated from a unit subject to the Reinforcement rule, can they return to play? Also, since they are in a mecha that cannot contribute VPs via the 'Life is Cheap' ability does an opponent get VPs for destroying them?


IMHO, I would say yes they can come back on as reinforcements. Nothing says they can't or won't that I can tell. Special note: It does say on the Reinforcements rule, "Tactical Battlepod only" but I would interpret that as the type of mecha and not necessarily any attachments. Unless the Life is Cheap ability is negated by the special character rules in units that have a Glaug attached, the special character and his pod still do not toward VPs.

Very Fun One Jr wrote:
2) Crossfire (p.19) - The rule states that eligible units "gain the [i]Crossfire bonus[i] if they attack simultaneously (like close formation)". Is the crossfire bonus only available to units of the same squadron attacking in close formation? The diagram Figure 4 contradicts this as the units are clearly not in close formation, but when or how does a unit attack simultaneously if it is not in close formation? Why does the sentence not end after the word "bonus"?


Crossfire attacks must be declared and used just like the Close Formation rules, even though the units are not in close formation. All attacks are declared by the units before the dice is rolled (negating the benefit of resolving one attack at a time) So there is a possibility of wasting shots by overkill, but you get the benefit of the bonus of crossfire (and close formation if you have multiple units in the front and or rear arcs).

Very Fun One Jr wrote:
3) VPs - How precisely does a player earn VPs from a Zentraedi Attack Squadron considering the Reinforcement ability? Does a player still have to destroy half/all the unit? How is that determined for a regenerating regult unit? Is it intended that a Zentraedi player can create a 0 VP force (All Attrition Squadrons and Regult squads) and, at worst, tie any VP based scenario? At best win by destroying 2 enemy mecha from the same squadron regardless of losses?


All squads have VPs. VPs are calculated by point cost, not by the mecha that are in that squad.

Attrition squads calculate their VPs as normal squads, UNLESS they have a Glaug attached as a special. The Reinforcement rule is not tied to the VPs of the squad...they are separate. Attrition squads with a Glaug attached as a special, Recon Squads, and Attack squads still have the point cost so they still have VPs, but the opposing player receives those VPs based on the number of mecha that do not have Life is Cheap...hence if the only mecha in the squad without Life is Cheap is a Glaug, then destroying the Glaug would earn the opposing player all of the VPs of the squad.

This is discussed in another thread but I would like to throw out a two further examples:

First,

A Recon Squad (6 Pods, 1 Scout Pod, 1 Glaug) has two other support option cards attached -- A recovery pod (Quel-Gulnau) and a Telnesta-Regult Squad.
Points would be (70+10+15)=95 or 10 VPs. Since there are 5 mecha without Life is cheap, the VPs are awarded as follows: if any three of the mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, 5 VPs are awarded. If all 5 of the mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, all 10 VPs are awarded, regardless of how many regular pods remain.

Second,

An Artillery Squad (4 light arty pods, 2 heavy arty pods) have two option cards attached, a Glaug and a Regult squad (6 pods). Points: 90+20+35= 145 or 15 VPs. Since there are 7 mecha without Life is cheap, the VPs are awarded as follows: if any four of the mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, 8 VPs are awarded. If all 7 of the mecha without Life is Cheap are destroyed, all 15 VPs are awarded, regardless of how many regular pods remain.

That's how I would roll. Anyone else have an opinion for discussion?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:16 pm
  

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Phaze wrote:
I'll try this out...

Very Fun One Jr wrote:
1) Special Characters - specifically the Zentraedi characters that can use Regults, Grell and Pirion-Galarr (p.68). What happens when they are eliminated from a unit subject to the Reinforcement rule, can they return to play? Also, since they are in a mecha that cannot contribute VPs via the 'Life is Cheap' ability does an opponent get VPs for destroying them?


IMHO, I would say yes they can come back on as reinforcements. Nothing says they can't or won't that I can tell. Special note: It does say on the Reinforcements rule, "Tactical Battlepod only" but I would interpret that as the type of mecha and not necessarily any attachments. Unless the Life is Cheap ability is negated by the special character rules in units that have a Glaug attached, the special character and his pod still do not toward VPs.



My opinion on this one differs a bit. I would suggest that a special character in a Regult is lost if that Regult is destroyed. The regult would still come on the board as a reinforcement (assuming required conditions are met) but would be a new pilot.

My opinion is based on the idea behind Life is Cheap; life is cheap for these guys because there are always clones freshly made to take their place. Special Characters they have abilities that set themselves apart from every other clone because they have survived many battles and have gained experience in battle, so if an individual is lost in battle they are gone, a new clone takes his place.

Now based on the rules as written a character is bought to pilot a specific mecha. If that mecha is destroyed the character doesn't jump to a different mecha, he is no longer usable. So when a Regult Mecha is destroyed a reinforcement can replace it on the battlefield, a new mecha. This mecha is not the one the character started out piloting and can't just jump on in.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:10 pm
  

D-Bee

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This touches on the topic of another post, whether the special characters are in fact unique or named generics. If generic then it would be simply another clone with similar abilities. Nothing in the rules says you cannot have multiples of the same special character or that they are unique.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:19 pm
  

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I'm going to go with Pythdamion on the Special characters returning thing. While there is no rule saying they can't, I would point out there is no rule saying they can. My understanding is that Special characters are unique. There is only one Kyron if you shoot him down he probably didn't die, but its highly unlikely he's going to grab another mecha in time to return to the battle before its over.

Again the rules just don't cover it. But as a general rule of thumb when reading rules its best to assume that when your not told something your not allowed to do it. In other words without permission don't assume you can.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:09 pm
  

D-Bee

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Ugggh. I hate that reasoning. It is no more authoritative than the opposite: "Without prohibition don't assume you can't". Sure there is only 1 Khyron, but out of a race of billions there is no other Zentraedi with similar abilities by a different name? The argument that you can bring multiple copies of the same character or that he characters represent anything other than gifted members of that faction is every bit as strong as the one you made.


Last edited by Very Fun One Jr on Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:47 pm
  

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That's a good point. Most other game systems have named characters that can be in an army once and generic characters that you build up to what you want. Until a FAQ is created I would suggest that your gaming group, or local store game organizer agree on house rules interpretations that are mutually agreed upon to make sure everybody playing together is playing with the same set if rules.

The danger the RRT community ahould avoid is getting into arguments over ambiguous rules with each side attempting to take advantage if the lack of clarity to gain a unintended benefit in the game. The rule book clearly states in this situation tole a die, highest roll wins argument.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:50 pm
  

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Look on page 53, it talks about using characters as templates for Malcontents. It's noted that you can't use Roy, Rick, Max, and Miriya as templates, suggesting that yes these characters are unique, or more precisely their abilities are unique. Of course there is no reference to not using any Zentraedi characters as templates, so no definitive answer it seems.

But for me I would consider them unique and once lost they can't come back for that battle as reinforcements. If I had an opponent set up with more than one special character, I'd ask him to change up his army or not play against him. He may have the choice to interpret the rules and I have the choice who to play against.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:20 pm
  

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Check and mate Axoid

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:24 pm
  

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You know... after reading these posts, I would have to change my mind on that point. I like the idea of bringing back the pod without the special character. It is a replacement mecha, not a clone. Besides, allowing the special character back on the field opens other issues, like: If the special character has an ability that can only be used once per game, does he get to use it again after he comes back on the field?

Yea, the more I think about it, the special character should not respawn with the pod for the Reinforcements Rule.

But it is on the list for a FAQ.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:50 pm
  

D-Bee

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Axoid wrote:
Look on page 53, it talks about using characters as templates for Malcontents. It's noted that you can't use Roy, Rick, Max, and Miriya as templates, suggesting that yes these characters are unique, or more precisely their abilities are unique. Of course there is no reference to not using any Zentraedi characters as templates, so no definitive answer it seems.

But for me I would consider them unique and once lost they can't come back for that battle as reinforcements. If I had an opponent set up with more than one special character, I'd ask him to change up his army or not play against him. He may have the choice to interpret the rules and I have the choice who to play against.


It says they can't be used in a Malcontent force, but that's just a special restriction for the Malcontent faction. It doesn't imply anything about uniqueness to me, it merely indicate that some characters can't be used in a Malcontent army. The Malcontents are a special case because they use characters from other factions and thus require special rules that are unique to them. It doesn't make clear that you can't use multiple Miriyas in the same UEDF force.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:05 pm
  

D-Bee

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Pythdamion wrote:
That's a good point. Most other game systems have named characters that can be in an army once and generic characters that you build up to what you want. Until a FAQ is created I would suggest that your gaming group, or local store game organizer agree on house rules interpretations that are mutually agreed upon to make sure everybody playing together is playing with the same set if rules.

The danger the RRT community ahould avoid is getting into arguments over ambiguous rules with each side attempting to take advantage if the lack of clarity to gain a unintended benefit in the game. The rule book clearly states in this situation tole a die, highest roll wins argument.


I can get behind that! My biggest hope is that we in the active community can discover these ambiguities early so new players and TOs know what to expect. Thanks everyone for working together on these questions.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:52 am
  

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Very Fun One Jr wrote:
I can get behind that! My biggest hope is that we in the active community can discover these ambiguities early so new players and TOs know what to expect. Thanks everyone for working together on these questions.


This ^. Also I would think it only fair and logical to make special characters unique meaning only one Roy or khyron per side. And the book does technically contain rules for custom created characters one can use it links with the pen and paper RPG but that allows people to create their own commanders and aces and such so to me it reinforces the unique character feel of the named people. I feel that special characters are respawning with life is cheap might be kind of overpowered and would say that probably shouldn't happen but the mecha is still valid to respawn. Just my humble opinion. Everyone is welcome to shoot holes in that logic if you see them of course.

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