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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:08 am
  

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Rifter® Contributer

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Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Hi there,

this was taken from KC's thread on "system errors", so that that valuable thread is not wasted or hijacked. I am worried about the conduct in these forums. I see a very vocal minority make this a less enjoyable place. These forums are a beautiful place and we all should take care that they remain a good place and not a trolls' and ranters' hell.

Spinachcat wrote:
Hendrik wrote:
All this talk of "Palladium did not go with the times", "we have developed, why not Palladium" to me - with all due respect - seems like terrible nonsense. RPGs are not a science. It is a gaming hobby.


RPGs are a business and if PB wants to thrive, it needs fresh blood and young blood - neither of whom are drawn to the current system. You can call that nonsense, but an aging, dwindling fan base isn't a good barometer for future success for any business.

Oh, no. I agree that RPGs are also a business. I agree that an "ageing and dwindling fan base" would not bode well, and neither would if no "fresh blood ... [were] ... drawn to the current system." I also agree that this may be an issue Palladium has and if not then should be wary about. I am sure that Palladium is very much thinking about this themselves, and I think that many valuable (useable for Palladium), frank, candid and constructive points have been raised about Palladium's options. Your points included, 'cat.

What I object to is that there is a lot of really bad form armchair quarterbacking that abounds in the Forums of the Megaverse these past couple of months. There is a lot of, actually sometimes rather brazen, critique. I like critique. I am also not Palladium. I even agree that Palladium does well to put there ear to what the fan base says (all of them, NOT just the very vocal and very repetetive few)! What I see much at the moment, though, and that was never so bad as it currently is, is that a few people tend to repeat the same stuff over and over again, ad nauseam and at every corner, even highjacking threads to put their 1 cent in again and again.

I do not mean you, Spinachcat. We sometimes agree and sometimes don't, that is not the point of the following. It is just a rant on general policy and behaviour that I find has very much taken a downturn here, an unneccesary one at that, too:

I will be honest, I do not like the negativity, especially not if it is coming hidden under the mantle of "I am objective" (mostly, it is NOT), "I have a right to speak the truth" (yes, but why be impolite about what the repective author BELIEVES; belief is NOT truth and NOT objective), "I love ... but" (love is good, but a but often makes anything before it entirely worthless), etc.

Do not get me wrong. As said, repeat: critique is good, ideas are good, but none of us really has concrete numbers to actually make even an educated guess on what Palladium "must" do. Often I read that people do not even bother to say "should do" or "could do" or "I would like to see them do this or that", but it comes over more, err, straightforward, "ungloved" as it is called. I call it unpolite and I assume such critique may sometimes even serve the poster's vanity more than a cause.

These forums are a beautiful place. I like to hang out here. Blimey, I have really good friends here. This is one of the places I can meet them. I do not exclude those I sparred with, discuss stuff. I appreciate most of you here. I do not have a beef with anyone, really. These forums are all about the games I play and love.

True, I can elect not to read certain posts. Maybe I can even block certain people. Yet, that was never necessary before and I would hate doing it. It does not feel right. And, how can I evade certain posts?

The ranting and trolling takes place in the topics I am interested in as well. I am interested in the fate and future of "my" Palladium. I wanted to know what's up with Lemuria. I really think that KC's thread here is very valuable! And, never ever did I have a problem with KC when I was not of his opinion, as I should like to add.

Why should I be forced to ignore such threads just because a very few people cannot "agree to disagree" and have to force their beef on me. Beef they may have, their say they should have, but they should have their say and that's it. I invite anyone who loves to repeat himself to put in a link in his post to his prior (identical) rant or put it in "spoiler" instead of regurgitating his/her negative.

I am not conceited to say the following, but I am a moderate and I think it is a bad sign if I and others think of taking a break from this place we love.

I do not want to name names, and I won't. I do not want to turn this into a general policy discussion, but when you (whoever you are) read this, stop and think if that could be you, either "side", and do us all a favour and rethink your behaviour.

Sincerely, frankly and respectfully submitted,
Hendrik

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:19 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Last few months?
Try years...

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:24 am
  

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Rifter® Contributer

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:52 am
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Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Last few months?
Try years...

I hear you, but I have been around for awhile, 2007 IIRC. I hope I can dare to say I am a tolerant, patient and moderate person. I really mean the last couple of months. Thereis always dissent. There is always discussion. There is always vanity. There is always one or the other guy who shoots "past the target". I do not mind that. What has deteriorated is the discussion culture. That is not necessary and serves no good purpose. But, Damian, I see you agree, right?

The FotM are not a pit like other RPG forums and I should not want to see them go down that drain.

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:30 am
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:59 am
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Location: Memphis, TN
Unfortunately, it also goes both ways. There is also a vocal minority on the other side of the coin that exasperates the issue by offering a rebuttal, and engaging full guns blazing. Once they have engaged, both sides seem to think that they have to get the last word in; and then, as we have seen multiple times, a tread will end in flames. Though, I have to admit, that other side has been much quieter over the past month or two. Maybe that is why the negativity seems so much more prominent right now?

-Chris

_________________
"Quality takes time. Poop comes out multiple times a year." -MrNexx

"Choosing to house-rule in order to customize the game to your liking can be a beautiful thing.
But being forced to house-rule in order to make the game playable at all is not." - Killer Cyborg


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:34 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
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Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
True: Both of you...
However...
If any of the "detractors" (and by this I mean the insulting incessant ones) posted on other companies boards in the manner they do here for the length of time they have here (some for over a decade) they would have been banned long ago...

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:56 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10602
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
I like to think of myself as more middle of the road. I know at times I can be a little overzealous but most of the time I liek to at least think I am a bit more articulate and moderate in my criticism of Palladium.

In recent months I too have refrained from posting as much as I usually do because I am getting tired of those that just scream "fix it" with nothing else to add. I at least like to think when I do say "fix it" I at least offer what seems like a reasonable way to do so....

EDIT - Now to be sure, I am no Defender of the Faith as some are when it comes to Palladium but nor am I part of what used to be the Cabal of 24 that seem to hammer Palladium at every opportunity....and this is coming from someone that was wrongfully thrown under a bus by Kevin himself in one of his murmurs over the whole Facebook fiasco.

Just ask Damian what I am like. We discuss things a plenty.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:46 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:46 pm
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Comment: "Honk Honk Honk Mother ******! Where's your God now?" - Untitled Goose
Compared to a lot of forums, both company and independent, the FotM are a bastion of calm and etiquette.

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@Wordsmith_Josh

JOSHHILDEN.COM

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:54 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 8296
Location: somewhere between Tolkeen and Chi-Town
Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
I think there is a lack of balance. People are more likely to complain if something seems like it isn't right. They are more likely to sit quietly if they are content. This is the way of the world. There will always be a more vocal part for the negative aspect, cause that is how they expect to illicit change to remove what they find negative. Also those who are "guilty" of being overly vocally negative must be doing it right, or the admins would have banned them. Free speech does not equate positive speech, so I don't see any reason they would be banned. The admins here are pretty fair and just.

_________________
Customer Service Director for Northern Gun

"The Devil's among us!
Stay back boy!...This calls for Divine Intervention!
I kick arse for the Lord!"
-Father McGruder- Braindead (a.k.a. Dead Alive)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:44 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 2:17 pm
Posts: 185
Location: Tempe, AZ
Comment: Guns don't kill people, e-clips do.
On one hand, people have the right to say what they want, within reason.

On the other hand, just because you can say something doesn't mean that you should.

And the acidic hatred some people have toward their fellow human beings when socializing with them on an internet forum devoted to a game about imagination, I just don't understand.

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"Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... now you tell me what you know." - Groucho Marx


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:50 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:37 pm
Posts: 4916
Location: Tampa FL
Comment: Poster's making baseless accusations of illegal actions go on the Foe list...
RuneKatana wrote:
On one hand, people have the right to say what they want, within reason.

On the other hand, just because you can say something doesn't mean that you should.

I agree on both acounts.
People have the Right to complain when a product they buy is below par or ill-functioning.
but in general we have 2 sides that disagree on several key points, and both sides dig their heals in when the "Debate" starts.

_________________
Give another Gamer a hand up with his education.
"By no means am I an expert on Southern Cross (I cordially detest the series)"-Seto
"Truth is determined by the evidence, not some nonexistent seniority system."-Seto
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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:56 pm
  

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Rifter® Contributer

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:52 am
Posts: 1503
Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Josh, welcome back.

jaymz wrote:
Jorel wrote:
I think it is flat out wrong to tell SS to edit his post which is what I felt Damian was getting at. As the OP had suggested to put it in a spoiler, I think that is also wrong. If people want to do that (to their own posts) fine, but no one should be telling anyone else here how to post except the admins.


Problem is Jorel, when threads like these come up and then you get people almost hijacking them with something that is really not appropriate, it ends up causing a thread to get locked in most cases and THAT is not the way to dialogue in anyone's book I would hop.e

I don't think it is too much to ask that people post in regards to the topic NOT add stuff that has no place in the discussion.

That is part of exactly what I meant, Jaymz.

I agree with what you said, Damian.

Jorel, I am not about telling people how to post. I don't care if they attach hearts and loops to their posts or don't.

I do care about politeness, I am against highjacking threads, I think a discussion culture should be better than what it has been here these past couple of months, but I do not tell people that they must put stuff in spoilers.

The freedom of speech is not hindered by good conduct. Demanding behaviour more conductive to reasonable and fruitful discussion is also not impeding freedom of speech.

What I said and meant was that it would do everyone good if the rather senseless regurgitation of positions could be handled quite and much more efficiently and less annoying if a poster maintaining a position ad nauseam and no matter what would just post a single line referring to his rant elsewhere or put said rant in a spoiler. I merely think that would be practical. Others could then follow that stuff or not, but it would not waste space, as cheap as electronic space is these days. I do not mind if someone holds his position no matter what. I could not care less.

Each to his own but there are people who really need to learn to "agree to disagree", cleans the air a lot, anything else is quite unproductive (duly noted, that we produce nothing here, but I am sure you know what I mean). If you have fat beef with someone else, write a PM. Stays between the people it belongs and nobody else is bothered with the flames.

Regarding the "argument" that this forum is at least a bit if not much better than some/many others and the demand to leave a comfort zone. It is not an argument at all, saying "you could have it worse" is weak. Besides, I do not need to leave my comfort zone. I do not have to leave my comfort zone. This is my leisure time, why should I? This is about my hobby. I am here to talk with others who share the same pursuit. I want to enjoy my time. I am here precisely because it is a very good forum and snotlings and trolls do NOT abound.

It just got quite a bit less good and that need not be at all. As futile as it may prove, I think it is worth a try.

Peace.

Cheers
Hendrik

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:02 pm
  

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Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
If that does not suffice, I think people should use the "vent off" forum or however it is called. There they can spar happily away and everyone who goes there wants to be a bit loose.

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:10 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 8296
Location: somewhere between Tolkeen and Chi-Town
Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
I feel we are entering a weird area where people are asking other people to keep their unpleasant opinions to themselves. "If you have nothing good to say, then it is better to say nothing." kinda thing. I don't agree. I don't think people need to go find a previous position and reference it in a link. Seems like censorship to me. I already do that with what I post here, as do others. I don't think we should limit the conversation like that. Yes, some beat that dead pulp that was once a horse, but so do others blindly accept. So what. They are all entitled to the their respective say, as long as they aren't breaking rules. Yes, it does devolve some topics, and sometimes stops them, but if they are important they are resurrected more oft then not.

_________________
Customer Service Director for Northern Gun

"The Devil's among us!
Stay back boy!...This calls for Divine Intervention!
I kick arse for the Lord!"
-Father McGruder- Braindead (a.k.a. Dead Alive)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:17 pm
  

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Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
I am definitely against censorship. I am also decidedly against telling people to keep their opinion to themselves. I am fine with people saying negative or positive things. I am, however, talking about good conduct and essentially asking, either side, to use common sense and avoid beating a dead horse. Forgetting about the latter, to ask to argue politely and respectfully is not a weird area. It is the "how" and not the "what" this thread is about. Repeat: I am not to censor the "what" (as long as it stays within forum rules). I am asking for a more tactful "how".

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:18 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Jorel wrote:
I feel we are entering a weird area where people are asking other people to keep their unpleasant opinions to themselves. "If you have nothing good to say, then it is better to say nothing." kinda thing. I don't agree. I don't think people need to go find a previous position and reference it in a link. Seems like censorship to me. I already do that with what I post here, as do others. I don't think we should limit the conversation like that. Yes, some beat that dead pulp that was once a horse, but so do others blindly accept. So what. They are all entitled to the their respective say, as long as they aren't breaking rules. Yes, it does devolve some topics, and sometimes stops them, but if they are important they are resurrected more oft then not.
I don't believe that is what Hendrik intends with this thread.
I know I do not intend that.
I am tired of visiting a thread only to find it twisted in yet another diatribe on the ills of the company.
I get it you are disappointed in the direction and choices Kevin has made but there are threads already in place for you to voice that opinion. And if that is not good enough there is the create thread button at the top of the page. You (general not specific) do not have to highjack a thread to get your point across.

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:18 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10602
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
@Jorel - I don't think censorship is the request or desire but asking one to not bring up something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand is both desired and should be standard expectation.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:20 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
jaymz wrote:
@Jorel - I don't think censorship is the request or desire but asking one to not bring up something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand is both desired and should be standard expectation.

exactly

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:24 pm
  

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Rifter® Contributer

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:52 am
Posts: 1503
Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
It really is not censorship to suggest a more streamlined approach to regurgitation. I agree with what Jaymz and Damian just said on that issue.

Stopping other topics is bad. People who jump into a discussion on X by ranting on Y and forcing their topic on a different one just very simply are rude. Do we really need that? Those people can, as suggested either PM or open a new thread for whatever they want to talk about.

I am happy to agree to disagree with you, Jorel. I just did not want to avoid to make the effort to bring my point across to you or anyone else who may share your take on what I said.

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:39 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Jorel wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
I get it you are disappointed in the direction and choices Kevin has made but there are threads already in place for you to voice that opinion. And if that is not good enough there is the create thread button at the top of the page. You (general not specific) do not have to highjack a thread to get your point across.

I never once said I was "disappointed in the direction and choices Kevin has made". Don't put that on me. I do not like that he "promised" 6 books before the year end, and just recently said he wasn't getting to the last 2 this year, and one of those an Insider which has been paid for by many here. For a while now I have been keeping that to myself, but it bugs me. Other than that, Kevin is free to make every decision, for better or worse. He should learn to keep his promises or people will not trust him, as they already don't trust him to meet a deadline. Or he shouldn't promise things. See I'm not hijacking, cause D-man there had to go and put words in my mouth.
Believe it or not Jorel I was not putting words in your mouth.
I was ranting about those who highjack threads in general. It was not targeted specifically at you.

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:44 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 8296
Location: somewhere between Tolkeen and Chi-Town
Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
Hendrik wrote:
It really is not censorship to suggest a more streamlined approach to regurgitation. I agree with what Jaymz and Damian just said on that issue.

Stopping other topics is bad. People who jump into a discussion on X by ranting on Y and forcing their topic on a different one just very simply are rude. Do we really need that? Those people can, as suggested either PM or open a new thread for whatever they want to talk about.

I am happy to agree to disagree with you, Jorel. I just did not want to avoid to make the effort to bring my point across to you or anyone else who may share your take on what I said.

What happens when you point out said behavior in a PM? Does that not also redirect the flow of the thread back towards it's original intent? Some people are missing certain social skills, whether because of a disability or because they are socially lacking for whatever reason. They deserve to say whatever in whatever manner they can while still not breaking any rules. Usually when I've seen that behavior, it is dealt with in one manner or another pretty quickly, and if it breaks a good thread another arises. Stopping topics is bad, but it happens for a lot of reasons, and sometimes it is because of overbearing posters, and I think that is worth reporting to the admins if it keeps happening. The message I got from the OP is that certain people are posting too much of the same negative drivel, and it needs to be contained. The topic it came from has been all over the megaverse at this point. Yes it should continue, but it has also served it's purpose. If it is valuable it will resurface or resurrect to continue the work, should it be disrupted.

_________________
Customer Service Director for Northern Gun

"The Devil's among us!
Stay back boy!...This calls for Divine Intervention!
I kick arse for the Lord!"
-Father McGruder- Braindead (a.k.a. Dead Alive)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:55 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Since it bothers some in this thread I put it in a spoiler. I am not going to remove or alter it. That being said its one of the few times I will do so. Dont expect it to become a habit.

Saying that its worse elsewhere is not weak. If you never go outside your comfort zone. Never visit other forums than imo you dont have a reason to say that this place is becoming a bad place to visit. Since as a poster one have little to no experience in what passes as a truly bad forum in the first place. This place is a pretty good place compared to others. Take my word for it. If you still dont believe me I do not know how else to try and prove it to some in this thread. Its like saying that the PB system as a whole is only for munchkin and power gamers galore without even having played in a game let alone read the rules. While playing only D&D. I respect the position of some in this thread. Unless you actual go to other forums imo your in no position to say this place is the worst place to be. Let alone call out others for being overly negitive all the time because there is so much worse out there.

I repeat I do no want this place turning into one big echo chamber where only stuff that can be written is good and postive. Since if we write somethign else it might offend or bother someone.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


Last edited by Sureshot on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Sureshot wrote:
Since it bothers some in this thread I put it in a spoiler. I am not going to remove or alter it. That being said its one of the few times I will do so. Dont expect it to become a habit.

Saying that its worse elsewhere is not weak. If you never go outside your comfort zone. Never visit other forums than imo you dont have a reason to say that this place is becoming a bad place to visit. Since as a poster one have little to no experience in what passes as a bad forum in the first place. This place is a pretty good place compared to others. Take my word for it. If you still dont believe me I do not know how else to try and prove it to some in this thread. Its like saying that the PB system as a whole is only for munchkin and power gamers galore without even having played in a game let alone read the rules. While playing only D&D. I respect the position of some in this thread. Unless you actual go to other forums imo your in no position to say this place is the worst place to be. Let alone call out others for being overly negitive all the time because there is so much worse out there.



Now See? THAT was on topic :D :P

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:01 pm
  

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Hero

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People are going to go to the mat over pointless points and grouse about things that have negligible impact on the real world. It's the internet and people are going to say what they want to say, the anonymity of the computer has created a consequence vacuum that allows people a freedom that they have never had in the past. I for one love it and will always ere on the side of the guy that wants to blow his stack with an insane rant than the side that wants people to conform to an arbitrary standard of decorum.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:03 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:

Now See? THAT was on topic :D :P


Well the sky sometimes does fall. It does. dam those meteorites.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:05 pm
  

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Knight

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Sureshot wrote:
I repeat I do no want this place turning into one big echo chamber where only stuff that can be written is good and postive. Since if we write somethign else it might offend or bother someone.
No one wants an echo chamber (in either direction).
Which is partially what this thread is about.
Preventing it from becoming too one sided.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:08 pm
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
I did not say this is "the worst place to be", Sureshot.

I know several other forums, some good, some "worse" than this one. Do not fear for my knowledge base.

I am very much in a position to voice my opinion about what I consider good conduct, no matter whether I see other forums or not. Good conduct, politeness, and discussion culture are pretty universal in civilized countries (forgetting about the mostly lamentable conduct of many politicians these days who tend to behave either like bad preachers or roguish horse traders more than anything else and do give a bad example) I do not see a single reason why such standards should or could not be mirrored in a forum.

True, I said it is a weak argument and I maintain that. My OP and this thread is not about other forums and how good or bad this forum is in contrast. That is really very much beside the point. Let me make an example: there is a totalitarian regime in country X, now they want to take rights of the people away in country Y and there argument is "see, you could be in X and have it worse be happy that we leave you some of your rights". Just an example.

What I mean to say: This is focussed on how this forum is and whether it should and could be better, which I happen to think it can and should.

Oh, and I do not want an echo chamber either.

Josh, I agree with your basic premise, but differ on the conduct issue. The internet is just a way to communicate it should not damage discussion culture.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:15 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Poster's making baseless accusations of illegal actions go on the Foe list...
I in no way would ever see the forums becoming one sided on the issues with the (game/company/system/settings), unless the Mod staff took a real active role in censorship.
The Issues I see are the Divisions being seen as to great to find a common ground on the topics.
when "debates" turn into "the game needs work"-"no it don't"-"yes it do"-"no"-"yeah"-"nope"-"yep"....
And honestly... Even my "Nagative" attitude in the past has netted Changes, for nearly 5 years Kevin said eh would only do Manga-sized Robotech books... and after years and years of being "incessant" and continued "senseless regurgitation of [my] position". Kevin Changed his mind.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:19 pm
  

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I am a fan of polite behaviour but not a fan of censorship. With that being said I'm going to have to agree with Hendrik, Damian and Jaymz.
I'm not asking everyone to post love poetry on here and this is not Ghost Busters 2 (asking all of New York to be nice to each other) but the amount of negativity that fills theses boards is getting very tiresome.

I mean it's getting to the point where almost every post is being turned into an "I hate PB/Kevin" kind of post. For example, someone starts a post with a question about the TW OCC or constructing a TW item, etc. instead of simply answering their question it always gets turned into a "I hate RUE so much" situation. Fine we get it everyone has different preferences, but the OP didn't ask your opinion on which version you think is best they asked what the answer in the book was. Yes I realize that the answer will vary between RMB and RUE, but from a technical standpoint the correct answer would be what was found in RUE (regardless if you like the edition or not) seeing as how it is the most up to date version of it.

Now I'm not saying people shouldn't have an opinion of which book is better, by all means discuss it. What I feel people shouldn't do is have that debate in the person's thread simply asking for clarification. Start your own thread and debate to your hearts content.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:21 pm
  

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Well this was whole thread was an interesting read. LOL

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:23 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Evil GM
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Colonel Wolfe wrote:
I in no way would ever see the forums becoming one sided on the issues with the (game/company/system/settings), unless the Mod staff took a real active role in censorship.
The Issues I see are the Divisions being seen as to great to find a common ground on the topics.
when "debates" turn into "the game needs work"-"no it don't"-"yes it do"-"no"-"yeah"-"nope"-"yep"....
And honestly... Even my "Nagative" attitude in the past has netted Changes, for nearly 5 years Kevin said eh would only do Manga-sized Robotech books... and after years and years of being "incessant" and continued "senseless regurgitation of [my] position". Kevin Changed his mind.
but I seem to recall though that you tried to contain your comments to appropriate threads..

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:23 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Colonel Wolfe wrote:
I in no way would ever see the forums becoming one sided on the issues with the (game/company/system/settings), unless the Mod staff took a real active role in censorship.
The Issues I see are the Divisions being seen as to great to find a common ground on the topics.
when "debates" turn into "the game needs work"-"no it don't"-"yes it do"-"no"-"yeah"-"nope"-"yep"....
And honestly... Even my "Nagative" attitude in the past has netted Changes, for nearly 5 years Kevin said eh would only do Manga-sized Robotech books... and after years and years of being "incessant" and continued "senseless regurgitation of [my] position". Kevin Changed his mind.
but I seem to recall though that you tried to contain your comments to appropriate threads..


That is as I recall it as well.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:25 pm
  

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Hendrik wrote:
Josh, I agree with your basic premise, but differ on the conduct issue. The internet is just a way to communicate it should not damage discussion culture.

I agree.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:35 pm
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
Jorel wrote:
The majority of posters here appear to be Adults. We do not need to be policed into conforming to someones idea of what is pleasing to everyone. Damian is wrong as usual.

An attempt was made to turn this thread into yet another "here is what is wrong with Palladium and Kevin" diatribe even though that is clearly not the intent of the OP.
And I am the one that is in the wrong?


Nope. You're not the only one.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:26 am
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Hi there,
Sureshot wrote:
Either a poster grows a thick skin and/or learns to tune out threads that a poster is not interested it or that offends them.

I am anything but thin skinned.

I just get impatient from and very annoyed by what I have described and bemoaned in my OP. Mind, I am impatient but I give my best to reign that in out of courtesy, but I am never easily annoyed. As I tried to explain - the conduct I found quite deplorable had taken to pervade many interesting threads. Repeatedly.

I do not think it is cricket to demand of me or others to ignore an interesting thread that is disturbed by the diatribe of merely a few. I do not see anybody but those few discuss things like it has happened. Why should the few be allowed to impress their idea onto anybody else?

For me saying that I should grow a thick skin is the discussion equivalent of 5 people [random but intentionally low number] using trash cans as cymbals and singing bawdy songs in the middle of the road at night and asking anybody else to ignore them and grow more thick skinned as they are just expressing their freedom of speech.

Just because we use an incorporeal and sort of anonymous written communication, does not mean we should give up certain standards. That is like saying "it is ok to commit a crime if nobody is looking". It is not. We are humans and peers, we should behave, hopefully as gentlemen, at least like decent disputants. Common courtesy and common decency is a minimum standard.

It is not right to demean that standard by giving the example that it is worse elsewhere. A good part of the world is governed by despots and does not know the rule of law. Bad enough, but would you like the argument from your government saying "hey, it could be worse, accept what you get"?

Josh Hilden wrote:
People are going to go to the mat over pointless points and grouse about things that have negligible impact on the real world. It's the internet and people are going to say what they want to say, the anonymity of the computer has created a consequence vacuum that allows people a freedom that they have never had in the past. I for one love it and will always ere on the side of the guy that wants to blow his stack with an insane rant than the side that wants people to conform to an arbitrary standard of decorum.

Any standard is arbitrary. Not shooting people, not stealing, not insulting, or something comparatively trifling as being courteous and decent are all arbitrary standards. The internet and its half anonymity should not lead us to degrade in demanding respectful and reasonable behaviour of ONESELF AND ONE's PEERS. I mean we are all hobby enthusiasts. We are those happy few who will happily - mostly - sit together and roll dice together pretending we are heroes, mutant animals, even superheroes, etc. I think we will not loose out when we are polite to each other, including respecting a choice of topic. This is not about censoring people's right to be heard. On the contrary. The question is very simply, must every one be heard with e.g. the same single grievance everywhere, over and over again? Why not excercise that freedom of speech, which I hold to be a good thing and would indeed defend to the death, in a thread on THAT TOPIC? At best once and be done with it.

Sureshot wrote:
COT

What is "COT", please?

Sureshot wrote:
I'm also not saying that we should only see negative things about PB yet as I said it's the nature of a group of people discussing something.

Only in bad or mediocre discussions and I think we can do better than that.

Sureshot wrote:
Very rarely does everyone agree with any one topic.

Agreed, that is the nature of the animal.

Sureshot wrote:
I do agree though that bringing up negativity all the time in every thread is a bad thing. I try to contain it to approriate threads. I admit to not being successful on that end. I get Hendricks point. I respect yet not agree with it completely.

Thank you! It is very much appreciated.

Cheers
Hendrik

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:45 am
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Razzinold wrote:
I am a fan of polite behaviour but not a fan of censorship. With that being said I'm going to have to agree with Hendrik, Damian and Jaymz.
I'm not asking everyone to post love poetry on here and this is not Ghost Busters 2 (asking all of New York to be nice to each other) but the amount of negativity that fills theses boards is getting very tiresome.

I mean it's getting to the point where almost every post is being turned into an "I hate PB/Kevin" kind of post. For example, someone starts a post with a question about the TW OCC or constructing a TW item, etc. instead of simply answering their question it always gets turned into a "I hate RUE so much" situation. Fine we get it everyone has different preferences, but the OP didn't ask your opinion on which version you think is best they asked what the answer in the book was. Yes I realize that the answer will vary between RMB and RUE, but from a technical standpoint the correct answer would be what was found in RUE (regardless if you like the edition or not) seeing as how it is the most up to date version of it.

Now I'm not saying people shouldn't have an opinion of which book is better, by all means discuss it. What I feel people shouldn't do is have that debate in the person's thread simply asking for clarification. Start your own thread and debate to your hearts content.

This.

Some poetry would be quite refreshing, though. :wink:

Seriously, I do not mind at all if people utter their grievances. That's fine. People are not always happy with everything. People will disagree. Palladium needs to hear that. Feedback is good, any feedback, even though I do agree with the forum rules that criticism needs to be constructive. It is also good to share such with your peers. I am interested to hear the good and the bad. I love Palladium and its games but I am not married to either and even under any vows, oath or order I will always keep my own counsel and remain a subject to my own conscience. What I am merely asking is not to overdo it - the ad nauseam thing - and not to have these mudslinging fests any more. It is just annoying and because of the volume really, really hard to ignore.

Open a thread "goodies vs badies mudslinging fest" and diatribe those bad vibrations, extreme good and extreme bad, out of your hearts. That will be fun to read, an adequate playground so fun for the participants, but also conveniently easy to ignore. Maybe sticky it in the "sound off" part of the forums if you want to use less restrained language, but I would be happy to see it stickied here, so people can always get back to that thread.

A "Lament: Product is late" thread would also be efficient. Note, I do not want to lessen the complaint - I, too, would much rather see more product and it always being on time - or sound condescending, nor am I, but as it is a sadly recurring theme having a "catch all/it" thread for that particular grievance type would make quite a bit of sense.

[Now, I may seem guilty of the very "crime" I struggle to illustrate, as what I have now said are indeed variations, expansions I fancy, of what I have already said. Yet, owned to the time difference I am absent for some part of the discussions and I felt your comments [all, even if I picked out only a few] were worthy of comment. I do not want anyone to feel that I ignore counter argument in the thread I have opened myself.]

Peace,
Hendrik

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:38 am
  

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Hero

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While I may not be as eloquent as Hendrik, I think I understand what he means.

It's fine for people to share their thoughts about something they don't like or that they disagree with, but they don't need to be a **** about it. Nor do they need to harp on PB's faults constantly in nearly every single thread they respond to whether it has anything to do with the topic being discussed or not. That gets very tiresome very quickly.

I don't have any problems with anybody on the boards (knocks wood that it stays that way for a good long time), but there are one or two that I wish would take a break from their complaints for a little while and just try to have some fun discussing something else for a change.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:18 am
  

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
COT = Crisis of Treachery.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:30 am
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Sureshot wrote:
COT = Crisis of Treachery.

Thanks!

(I did think about that line quite a bit and wondered what you meant that had been thrown into our face. My immediate thought was Call of Cthuluh, but "Tsuluh"? Nah, obviously not. Then I thought it might be a saying I do not know, for example "slapped with a cod" as in stinks or "cot in the face" as in suffocating or an egg cutter metaphor, but I dismissed both as not likely and so asked. :-D )

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:00 am
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
FREEZEFRAME!

If you must or want to imagine Dexy's Midnight Runners as a jingle.

Panomas wrote:
Sureshot wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What exactly would do the trick for you?


Simple

-Stop promising too many books. Not something that is impossible to do.
-Promote a book when it's actually on the way to the printer. Or when it's close being completely edited.
-Take responsability for their actions. Mistakes happen. Poor choices have been made. A simple "sorry guys I screwed up". Would be nice
-Stop bringing up the COT. It should not be forgotten. Yet its gets thrown into our faces whenever things go bad to get us to feel sorry for them and to deflect actual issues and problems at the company.
-More importantly no more promises. Or at least ones that PB and by extension Kevin knows can't be kept. A few broken promises are bound to happen. When it happens all the time it's quite frankly annoying imo.

The above list imo would help. Yet I don't see it happening anytime soon.


But.....
You know already (from previous exp.) they promise books ahead... and sometimes which are never seen
You know those books aren't at the printer when this is done.

I can understand your grief and I understand your points; but ranting about it all the time is neither good for you or the company..... I have noticed alot of negative posts, "topic changing" posts....

Honestly, I find your posts always say the same thing over and over... I feel like KC is baiting you with this question....

I don't want to offend; but if I was as unhappy as you about Palladium Books, I would have moved on long ago. I guess that's what I don't understand...


This is an excellent example! Thank you.

The posts above are in my humble opinion ..."slightly"... off topic. Both sides are in my book not aggressive, gentleman 1 is factual, gentleman 2 appears puzzled but polite. Gentleman 1 reacts to what gentleman 0 has asked, who also asked that off topic in my book.

Yet, I just know from thereon ... .... it often deteriorates and leads to closed threads. (I am NOT saying that this is the fault of anyone in particular, actually the thread-closing mudfest-discusssions usually are the fault of several people.) Where this thread a discussion of any failings of Palladium or on the delayed publication of books that would not be bad because it would only possibly kill the very chosen topic, i.e. which the discussion is about. But: those are NOT the topics. Here it may - I know I am being negative but it has happened quite often - lead to the locking of a thread that has nothing to do with the discussion that may well develope into the cause of locking. I am NOT saying either of you guys wants that, I do not believe so in fact. Off topic is not bad, bad is when it leads to locking of threads which had a different topic. We all know that "alleged failings of Kevin" and "book delays" have a bad habit of killing threads. I just mean this could happen and, all I am suggesting is that we should in all fairness choose our battlegrounds by OP topic.

Cheers
Hendrik

P.S.:
Spoiler:
The next thing that normally probably would happen is that Sureshot replies to Panomas, then somebody else jumps in, the fire is a bit stoked, somebody explodes a little, somebody says calm down, maybe it works, maybe not, then a Palladin of Palladium comes to the rescue just to set things right, usually a cabal 24 member will react, it will get a bit violent, and after some further events and 2 more pages the thread might very well be locked. Number of participants probably around 1D6+1 and some bystanders.


Funny, the first thing just happened as I wrote.

P.P.S.: By the way, while I would have phrased it differently maybe, I honestly think Sureshot's list is very worthy of discussion, essentially "delayed books are a known Palladium malady, how do you live with that?" is the topic of that thread, or something similar.

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Last edited by Hendrik on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:19 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
Hendrik wrote:
Spoiler:
... usually a cabal 24 member will react, it will get a bit violent, and after some further events and 2 more pages the thread might very well be locked...

Who exactly is this Cabal of 24? Who are they really? Is that like a list of Kevin's enemies?

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Last edited by Jorel on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:26 am
  

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Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
A fan can get irritated or mad and still be a fan.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:30 am
  

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Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Sureshot wrote:
Hendrik with respect it's not my first rodeo so to speak in terms of internet forums. If it's one thing that bothers me. It's when it's someone tries the "why are you still here?" You don't seem happy. If I were you I would have left a long time ago.".

I responded to KC query which imo is apporiate to this thread only to have someone tell me to leave and go somewhere else. I don't want the thread to go downhill. Yet neither am I going to stand by and be politely told to get lost if I'm not happy.

I understand that. I respect that. IMO nobody needs to "get lost" just because he is critical or vocal. As Jorel says, a fan is a fan. As long as elocution is polite, I am happy.

The defense of honour and the right to talk back are both valuable. Yet, both have often ultimately led to thread shut-downs that I guess even most participants did not want. I bemoan the result, not the reaction. I am pretty sure that Panomas did not want to draw you out, but he has. Case in point. You reacted, as was to be expected. Normally, this would go on and something bigger would develope from it. You know that is true or at least likely. Point is, I would love people to be able to avoid drawing people out or those drawn to actually not react by essentially saying "the hell I will get of this lawn, it's not yours" (example) etc.

Funny thing, months ago I wondered exactly about the same thing as Panomas, although I am pretty sure it was with respect to someone else, not you, Sureshot. I tangled with the thought a bit and came to the conclusion that it is not worth to ask it because either the dissatisfied voice is an unhappy fan, one of us, or a troll. The first can only save himself, the latter thrives on attention. So, better not ask the question and if you think "troll" report it.

Panomas, you are actually now fully on topic :-P , although any personal stuff must be PM so this is a fine line here, but it is about GENERAL standards of conduct. As said, you guys just gave a good example, hence gentleman 0, 1 and 2. Your last post, if I may say so, well done, Sir.

I like you guys, so don't get me wrong, I was just using your conversation as a typical example of the start of what is one of the main items of my contention.

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:46 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:32 pm
Posts: 315
I would love to see a group of people clash cymbals together and sing bawdy songs. Is there a place I can see Palladium fans do that?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:20 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: Dayton Ohio
Comment: "Honk Honk Honk Mother ******! Where's your God now?" - Untitled Goose
The level of irritation elicited by people that praise everything the company does compared to the irritation from people who consistently state their complaints is comparable. It's all a matter of which perspective you are looking from. If one side needs to reel it in then so does the other. And that would resort in a boring forum. You have to take the good with the bad in order to foster discourse on any subject. And just because you have stated your view clearly once does not mean you go sit against the wall and wait. If you are truly passionate about something (person, place, thing, idea) you are obligated state your belief and try to convince others of your point of view. I hate it when when people try to convince me of their political views but I don't tell them that they can't tell people what they believe I simply walk away.

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Josh Hilden
@Wordsmith_Josh

JOSHHILDEN.COM

AMAZON AUTHORS PAGE


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:54 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10602
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Josh Hilden wrote:
If you are truly passionate about something (person, place, thing, idea) you are obligated state your belief and try to convince others of your point of view.


The problem isn't usually the what is said or why it is said though. It's the how it is said. The two extremes tend to just ignore what the other is saying and repeat themselves ad nauseum. I for one have had my opnions changed in both directions on certain subjects. If one is unwilling or incapbable of even having a change of mind on the subject at hand then the discourse is of the subject is comepletley irrelevant and pointless.

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I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:01 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: Dayton Ohio
Comment: "Honk Honk Honk Mother ******! Where's your God now?" - Untitled Goose
jaymz wrote:
Josh Hilden wrote:
If you are truly passionate about something (person, place, thing, idea) you are obligated state your belief and try to convince others of your point of view.


The problem isn't usually the what is said or why it is said though. It's the how it is said. The two extremes tend to just ignore what the other is saying and repeat themselves ad nauseum. I for one have had my opnions changed in both directions on certain subjects. If one is unwilling or incapbable of even having a change of mind on the subject at hand then the discourse is of the subject is comepletley irrelevant and pointless.


That is a price that has to be paid for the right of free, open, and honest discourse.

_________________
Josh Hilden
@Wordsmith_Josh

JOSHHILDEN.COM

AMAZON AUTHORS PAGE


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:06 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 3291
Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
It is easy in a forum to keep talking long after the facts have been considered and the mind made up.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:07 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 3879
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Josh Hilden wrote:
That is a price that has to be paid for the right of free, open, and honest discourse.


Agreed and seconded.

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If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:20 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 5:04 pm
Posts: 2774
Sureshot wrote:
Josh Hilden wrote:
That is a price that has to be paid for the right of free, open, and honest discourse.


Agreed and seconded.

Thirded.

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*Sniff, Sniff* Why does it smell like wet dog in here?!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:27 pm
  

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Rifter® Contributer

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:52 am
Posts: 1503
Location: IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OLD EMPIRE
Comment: What is genius? A Victim OCC (BtS 1st ed, p. 193 ss)! The ultimate hero is a victim conquering adversity.
Josh Hilden wrote:
The level of irritation elicited by people that praise everything the company does compared to the irritation from people who consistently state their complaints is comparable. It's all a matter of which perspective you are looking from. If one side needs to reel it in then so does the other.

Yes.

Josh Hilden wrote:
And that would resort in a boring forum.

No, unless you define bad (discussion) manners as necessary for excitement. I am not about not having a say. I am not about no critique. I am not about "it must all be positive". This is about: is it necessary to spoil a thread on X by forcing a discussion on Y on it? This is about: not repeating stuff ad nauseam. Have a say in a thread on a topic. Talk on that topic there for 100,000 years, but leave other threads alone with the jazz. Is all I am saying in a nutshell. This is not about freedom of speech as you seem to see or paint it, this is about a reasonable choice were to excericise that right.

Josh Hilden wrote:
You have to take the good with the bad in order to foster discourse on any subject.

Bad = bad conduct --> no, absolutely not
Bad = negatives/critique --> you are right, critique is not bad and must be accepted if within forum rules

Josh Hilden wrote:
And just because you have stated your view clearly once does not mean you go sit against the wall and wait. If you are truly passionate about something (person, place, thing, idea) you are obligated state your belief and try to convince others of your point of view. I hate it when when people try to convince me of their political views but I don't tell them that they can't tell people what they believe I simply walk away.

You have no such obligation in my book. You can, you do not have to utter your opinion. But, yes, you need not sit stuff out.

Josh Hilden wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Josh Hilden wrote:
If you are truly passionate about something (person, place, thing, idea) you are obligated state your belief and try to convince others of your point of view.

The problem isn't usually the what is said or why it is said though. It's the how it is said. The two extremes tend to just ignore what the other is saying and repeat themselves ad nauseum. I for one have had my opnions changed in both directions on certain subjects. If one is unwilling or incapbable of even having a change of mind on the subject at hand then the discourse is of the subject is comepletley irrelevant and pointless.

That is a price that has to be paid for the right of free, open, and honest discourse.


As said, there is no such obligation, unless one is a missionary.

You make this sound like it is a question of maintaining an elementary natural right. It sounds great. Yet.

Honest does not mean forcing oneself upon others.

Free does not mean impolite. You can be forthright and not rude.

Open does not mean you must repeat a certain opinion in a never-ending manner (intellectual "endless repeat" button).

I am all for honest, free and open in a positive sense.

The word "discourse" implies movement, toing and froing. A discourse need not change your opinion. Those who enter a discourse intent on maintaining their position and nothing else are only confrontational. This is not at all about not having your say, it is about how you have that say. You can have a good discourse that is still polite and "agrees to disagree" at a certain point before the parot flies into the fan ...

I agree 100% with Jaymz. It is the "how".

Jorel wrote:
Who exactly is this Cabal of 24? Who are they really? Is that like a list of Kevin's enemies?

Sorry, Jorel, I overlooked your post. I do not know where the name comes from, I remember having asked that and Jaymz answered me. It is a group of people who chose a fancy name who fancy being critical, "say things as they are" as I think they like to be understood. That is not "kevin's enemies". Not per se and not in my perception. You find it as a sentence in some signatures of fellow forum members.

_________________
Handouts for Operation Minotaur (BtS Adventure published in RIFTER #83) Get them at the fabulous "House of BtS"![/quote]

May all your hits be crits!


Last edited by Hendrik on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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