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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:05 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Shawn Merrow wrote:
1. 24 people do not equal a vast majority anywhere.


Right because Palladius has so many fans it can afford to just lose 24 people. Really glad your not runnning the company otherwise it would have gone under many years ago. And like I said your causual indifference to losing fans just scares me. Since there so easily replaced.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
2. Unless my memory is failing you did not work with me when I answered the emails. I did it for over a year with an average of 30 emails a day. Yes, I did get several hundred emails with people saying don't change the system.


I apologize for having questioned you on this but next time says so. I had no idea you had answered emails

Shawn Merrow wrote:
3. Don't ever accuse me of lying again! Next time will report you.


I made a mistake I admit that. Don't threathen me either. I may have accused you of lying I did not threathen you. I am pretty asure you just broke one of the rules on the board.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
Any differant then the attitude "If it dosen't work for me then its broken and must be changed to my liking." I have problems with the D20 system that keep me from playing it but I don't consider it broken. I recently got Savage Worlds will have to make changes for my groups style, again don't think its broken.


Explain to me than how you expect to recapture lost market share without changing anything as a company. I can't see how your going to be able to do that. PB is not increasing any spending on advertising in magazines or even on online. You don't allow conversions. If their is a strategy I just don't see it.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
The issue I have is being rude to people who defend the rules. Making comments like this "Very dangerous and short-sighted thinking imo" is not showing respect. Also no one has said there can't be negative comments so quit hiding behind that.


I make those comments not because I want to out of sheer frustration. As I said explain to me what strategy PB has to repcature lost market share that makes i easier without changing anything at all. Without increasing advertising and relying on sheer word of mouth which may or may not work. As a fan I have seen this company not really do that much to improve things. Unrealistic release schedules check. The same copy and paste errors check. As a compay as a whole it has become way too complacent with the status quo. Which would not be a bad thing if you be getting a steady and ever increasing fanbase. I'm not seeing any major increases in the amount of traffic. It's the same people posting in the same threads.

I normally do not ask this yet I see the need to. Do you have a bone to pick with me so to speak. So far my threads are the only ones you seem to go out of your way to answer and you seem to ignore almost everyone else. Maybe you need to take a step back from this thread.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
Again just because it does not work for you does not means its imposible to use.


True yet it means for myself nad probably others you rules don't get used then. You make it sound like its my loss and it's not.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


Last edited by Sureshot on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:19 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 3885
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Back to topiuc

I see no reason not to have a rules compendium.

I would be in favor of a new edition but honestly the system as is just needs to be streamlined an updated. Skills instead of being copy and pasted should be updated when needed to reflect modern day standards and when needed be condensed and reduced. Some skill categories are just too big. I do think that repair skills should have values higer than 98% as depending on which PB setting you play with all the penalties it becomes impossible to do anything. Remove the bonuses from physical skills to anything that does not involve hand to hand combat. Having a higer physical prowness imo does not make you a better robot or power armor pilot. Not unless the PA and robot vehicles are designed to be used more efffectively by a quicker person. Plus it also removes one o the things the critics can use against the systems. Reducing the amount of redudnat OCCs/RCCs would also help. Do we really need that many different versions of a Infrantryman OCC. Make magic psionics super powers and combat all the same rather than seperate. Sure giving magic and psionic users different recovery rates makes for great flavour yet imo a pain in the behinf to keep track off.

It can be done with enough time and feedback. As long as you have at least 75% of the fanabse behind you it should be done . Their is no way your going to get 100% of the fans on board you might as well settle for a majority. If you try to please everyone than nothing will be done. If some boycott the company let them. One way or the other they were going to anyway so worrying to much about them is a sure way to get nothing done

Strange that you bring up turning the rules into a 3.X clone DM because it has been a very long time since I saw anyone posting that and PB has pretty much said no to the idea and I do not want to see it. Personally I would like ot see it turn into a point based system as it would be easier to make it more generic. 3.x does not have that versatility.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:41 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 3486
Location: Pasco, WA, USA
Comment: For the glory of Zeon and Zerebus, Sieg Zeon!

2D6 Palladium Forum History Geek Points
Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
1. 24 people do not equal a vast majority anywhere.


Right because Palladius has so many fans it can afford to just lose 24 people. Really glad your not runnning the company otherwise it would have gone under many years ago. And like I said your causual indifference to losing fans just scares me. Since there so easily replaced.


So without those 24, Palladium Books is going out of business? You, think they should make changes that may alienate their existing fanbase to hopefully get those 24? Wizards of the Coast is screwed then, there are a lot more then 24 people mad about 4E.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
2. Unless my memory is failing you did not work with me when I answered the emails. I did it for over a year with an average of 30 emails a day. Yes, I did get several hundred emails with people saying don't change the system.


I apologize for having questioned you on this but next time says so. I had no idea you had answered emails


I already mention it in this very thread that I had done that in the past.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
3. Don't ever accuse me of lying again! Next time will report you.


I made a mistake I admit that. Don't threathen me either. I may have accused you of lying I did not threathen you. I am pretty asure you just broke one of the rules on the board.


Telling you not to make false accusations against me and saying I will report you for doing so if done again is not a violation of the rules. Now personal attacks say like accusing someone of lying is.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
Any differant then the attitude "If it dosen't work for me then its broken and must be changed to my liking." I have problems with the D20 system that keep me from playing it but I don't consider it broken. I recently got Savage Worlds will have to make changes for my groups style, again don't think its broken.


Explain to me than how you expect to recapture lost market share without changing anything as a company. I can't see how your going to be able to do that. PB is not increasing any spending on advertising in magazines or even on online. You don't allow conversions. If their is a strategy I just don't see it.


Have been posts from people who got tired of the way D&D was going and switched to Palladium. I would suggest going after people who don't like the way current systems are going. I rather see them emphasize what makes them unique then just copy more recent rule systems.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
The issue I have is being rude to people who defend the rules. Making comments like this "Very dangerous and short-sighted thinking imo" is not showing respect. Also no one has said there can't be negative comments so quit hiding behind that.


I make those comments not because I want to out of sheer frustration. As I said explain to me what strategy PB has to repcature lost market share that makes i easier without changing anything at all. Without increasing advertising and relying on sheer word of mouth which may or may not work. As a fan I have seen this company not really do that much to improve things. Unrealistic release schedules check. The same copy and paste errors check. As a compay as a whole it has become way too complacent with the status quo. Which would not be a bad thing if you be getting a steady and ever increasing fanbase. I'm not seeing any major increases in the amount of traffic. It's the same people posting in the same threads.

I normally do not ask this yet I see the need to. Do you have a bone to pick with me so to speak. So far my threads are the only ones you seem to go out of your way to answer and you seem to ignore almost everyone else. Maybe you need to take a step back from this thread.


Think I need to take a break? I'm not the one falling back on personal insults to make my arguments and ignoring others viewpoints because I don't like them. Also have replied to other peoples posts in this thread.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:16 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 3885
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Shawn Merrow wrote:
So without those 24, Palladium Books is going out of business? You, think they should make changes that may alienate their existing fanbase to hopefully get those 24? Wizards of the Coast is screwed then, there are a lot more then 24 people mad about 4E.


The are three main difference between PB and Wotc. First Wotc has not lost a lot of market share that PB has. Second even if it may have cost them some fans they tried to fix their system. For good or bad too early to say imo at least they made an attempt. Third are you seriously trying to compare the PB fanabse with the Wotc fanbase. The Wotc fanbase is 10 times the PB fanbase if not more. If your going to compare rpg companies at least get one that has a similiar ganbase.

Shawn Merrow wrote:


Which I apologized to you about. What more do you want. If you think I am going to get on my hands and kness to beg your forgiveness it's not happening.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
Telling you not to make false accusations against me and saying I will report you for doing so if done again is not a violation of the rules. Now personal attacks say like accusing someone of lying is.


Once again I apologized to you about it. And all I said I did not beleive you and I made a mistake. Do you automatically believe everything everyone tells you. Probably not. I was bunrt one too many times in real life to take anyone word on anything except very close family members. And no offence the tone you took was threathening. You could have easily pointed out my mistake and told me to stop. I made a mistake and was wrong to question you on thatt subject and even though you defeneded yourself overreacted on it.

Shawn Merrow wrote:
Have been posts from people who got tired of the way D&D was going and switched to Palladium. I would suggest going after people who don't like the way current systems are going. I rather see them emphasize what makes them unique then just copy more recent rule systems.


So your strategy is to wait and see until some fans became unhappy with D&D and other game systems you hope that amounts an increased means amount of fanbase. That's it. The bold new way to get people into PB. The same strategy that almost every other rpg company uses. Problem with that is rely too much on the hope factor. Right now this company needs new fans. Not fans they hope will come over. So in the end you wanting nothing to change. I figured it would be that yet I had thought to see something new on that front.


Shawn Merrow wrote:
Think I need to take a break? I'm not the one falling back on personal insults to make my arguments and ignoring others viewpoints because I don't like them. Also have replied to other peoples posts in this thread.


So let me get this straight it's okay for you to lash out at someone when they say something bad about you not the other way around. All I said was that I did not beleive you because I overlooked gthe part about you reading emails. I apologized to you for it and you cannot seem to let it go. And I am the one incapable of letting it go. You overreacted and know it.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:49 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Sureshot wrote:
Back to topiuc

I see no reason not to have a rules compendium.

I would be in favor of a new edition but honestly the system as is just needs to be streamlined an updated. Skills instead of being copy and pasted should be updated when needed to reflect modern day standards and when needed be condensed and reduced.
agreed, at least with bringing skills up to modern day standards. condensed and reduced? not sure exactly what you mean by this?
Some skill categories are just too big.
how so? I honestly do not see the system the same way you do. which is why I ask. I want to understand your view (even if I might not agree with it.)
I do think that repair skills should have values higer than 98% as depending on which PB setting you play with all the penalties it becomes impossible to do anything.
agreed, besides it seems a common enough house rule that perhaps its time to incorporate it. (after all thats how AD&D came into existence collected house rules)
Remove the bonuses from physical skills to anything that does not involve hand to hand combat. Having a higer physical prowness imo does not make you a better robot or power armor pilot. Not unless the PA and robot vehicles are designed to be used more efffectively by a quicker person.
the PP bonuses are a hold over from Robotech (VTs have over 50 controls in the cockpit a higher dex would help to use those).
Plus it also removes one o the things the critics can use against the systems.
you lost me with this. could you expand on this for me?
Reducing the amount of redudnat OCCs/RCCs would also help. Do we really need that many different versions of a Infrantryman OCC.
I can get behind reducing redundant OCCs but who defines what ones are redundant? I am willing to bet you and I cannot agree on all of them. and if we two cannot agree adding more opinions to the mix is not going to make it easier.
Make magic psionics super powers and combat all the same rather than seperate. Sure giving magic and psionic users different recovery rates makes for great flavour yet imo a pain in the behinf to keep track off.
I assume by same you mean just the recovery rates and a single point base? I dunno if I can get behind that,(recovery rates sure) but identical power source? no that would make them indistinguishable from one another and create more complaints than it fixes. IMO. but I am willing to hear counter arguments.

as you can see we agree on many points its our approaches that differ.
both sides of the "pally needs a 2e" argument are not dissimilar.
where is the common ground?
what would both sides see as improvements to the system?

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:00 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 4274
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
Have been posts from people who got tired of the way D&D was going and switched to Palladium. I would suggest going after people who don't like the way current systems are going. I rather see them emphasize what makes them unique then just copy more recent rule systems.


So your strategy is to wait and see until some fans became unhappy with D&D and other game systems you hope that amounts an increased means amount of fanbase. That's it. The bold new way to get people into PB. The same strategy that almost every other rpg company uses. Problem with that is rely too much on the hope factor. Right now this company needs new fans. Not fans they hope will come over. So in the end you wanting nothing to change. I figured it would be that yet I had thought to see something new on that front.

No Offense Shotty but that is generally how most of us did come to Pally. so Shawns wanting to use what has worked in the past is understandable. But I agree that we cannot rely on just converts. Pally does need to use a more aggressive means of attracting new players. But we cannot assume that any one of us "knows" the perfect method.

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:01 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
In regards to skill over 98% Palladium already does that in HU and although a 99-00 is still an auto fail it does in fact allow the overage to counter penalties to skill rolls. :) So it's really only an addition to any non-HU game.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:22 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Damian Magecraft wrote:
agreed, at least with bringing skills up to modern day standards. condensed and reduced? not sure exactly what you mean by this?


I would pretty much make computers one skill. Having one skill to operate a computer and one to program just seems silly to me at least. One assumes if your going to program a computer you know how to turn one on and operate. As chancers are good you will not be let near a computer if you cannot turn it on. same thing with the two math skills. One assumes you would know basic to learn advanced. Asc for the modern day standards of my post I think I should have wrote more easier to read instead.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
how so? I honestly do not see the system the same way you do. which is why I ask. I want to understand your view (even if I might not agree with it.)


I just realized that was a duplicate post of the same thing. I answered it above.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
agreed, besides it seems a common enough house rule that perhaps its time to incorporate it. (after all thats how AD&D came into existence collected house rules)


If not in a official sourcebook than an official Rifter article. Jaymz has pointed out that HU does allow that yet imo it should not require buying HU to implement.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
the PP bonuses are a hold over from Robotech (VTs have over 50 controls in the cockpit a higher dex would help to use those).


I would have no problem if they gave a good logic in game reason for doing so. Otgherwise it just seems silly to me.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
you lost me with this. could you expand on this for me?


One of the things a lot of critics bring up as a flaw with the system is that having a high PP makes you better at piloting and for good or bad most find it a silly thing of the rules.


Damian Magecraft wrote:
I can get behind reducing redundant OCCs but who defines what ones are redundant? I am willing to bet you and I cannot agree on all of them. and if we two cannot agree adding more opinions to the mix is not going to make it easier.


The problem for me with redudnat OCCs is that nothing to me anyway mkes one stand out more than the other. A CS Grunt and an Infratryman from Triax and Japan all feel the same to me. Too cookie cutter for my tastes. Beyond a few different skill selections and equipment and location

Damian Magecraft wrote:
I assume by same you mean just the recovery rates and a single point base? I dunno if I can get behind that,(recovery rates sure) but identical power source? no that would make them indistinguishable from one another and create more complaints than it fixes. IMO. but I am willing to hear counter arguments.

[/quote]

A standardized point recovery system yes. It would imo be easier to track and implement. There are ways for making it work. Ultimately a fireball tossed by a psionc and mage to me has always been the same thing. They usually have similar effects both damage and otherwise. Maybe harder to implemnt or combat element..

Damian Magecraft wrote:
as you can see we agree on many points its our approaches that differ.
both sides of the "pally needs a 2e" argument are not dissimilar.
where is the common ground?
what would both sides see as improvements to the system?

[/quote]

I do not think you can have 100% commen ground on anything. As I said 75% would be enough. Otherwise if your going to try and get everybody on board nothing will ever be improved on or changed. As long as majority rules that imo should be enough. And while we may disagree we can agree on certain things.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


Last edited by Sureshot on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:26 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 3885
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Damian Magecraft wrote:
No Offense Shotty but that is generally how most of us did come to Pally. so Shawns wanting to use what has worked in the past is understandable. But I agree that we cannot rely on just converts. Pally does need to use a more aggressive means of attracting new players. But we cannot assume that any one of us "knows" the perfect method.


I agree it does work but it is one that requires to much of an element of chance. What is needed is more advertising and they really should be trying to put themseleves all over the internet. The traditional way of word of mouth imo just does not work like it used to. Gamers are using the internet more and more to find about about new games. Trying to find out as much about a game as possible before investing in it.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:30 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10755
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Actually in regards PP bonuses applying to piloting. Even today Fighter pilots are requird to have better than average reflexes and eye/hand co-ordination. This is where this stems from for the most part. I myself see noissuewith it BUT I do think they combat training for such thigns shoudl not STACk with HTH trainig and shouldbe kept distinctly seperate. I have ssues with suddenly beign in a PA or Robot and being able to shoot my gun 2 more times above and beyond hte infantryman with a rifle. THAT to me is non-sensical. Adding PP bonuses woudl and do have an effect onpiloting and gunnery.

I have my pwn fixes for the whoel robot combat trainign issues I have but I wont postthem here as it is how I see it. Suffice to say to me it wokrs better and is in a sense more balanced for what it should be.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:35 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:36 pm
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So after seven pages, am I correct in assuming, pretty much everyone posting in this thread is in agreement palladium would greatly benefit from releasing a "rules compendium" book that streamlines and corrects the current rules to make them more serviceable and feel less outdated? (One could almost call it palladium 2.5 edition :P )


Assuming so, how can we move forward with clarifying/organizing and presenting this idea to tptb to perhaps see this become a reality?

_________________
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Last edited by Silveressa on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:38 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10755
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Silveressa wrote:
So after seven pages, am I correct in assuming, pretty much everyone posting in this thread is in agreement palladium would greatly benefit from releasing a "rules compendium" book that streamlines and corrects the current rules to make them more serviceable and feel less outdated? (One could almost call it palladium 2.5 edition :P )


Assuming so, how can we move forward with presenting this idea to tptb to perhaps see this become a reality?


To be honest I am not sure we can....Kevin has been asked about it in the past on multiple occasions and has stated time and time again he has no interest in doing such a thing. In fact he didn't want to really do RUE when he did but "catered" to fan demand. He did it once and I wouldn't bet on him doing it again. Unfortunately.... :(

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:36 pm
Posts: 207
Location: The frozen north
jaymz wrote:
To be honest I am not sure we can....Kevin has been asked about it in the past on multiple occasions and has stated time and time again he has no interest in doing such a thing. In fact he didn't want to really do RUE when he did but "catered" to fan demand. He did it once and I wouldn't bet on him doing it again. Unfortunately.... :(


Perhaps if we can help show him it would be a good thing for PB in general it would help convince him of the positive aspect.

Just releasing the rules compendium as a pdf on drive-thru rpg for $8-$12 or so would generate a fair amount of cash I'd imagine, and the free publicity they'd get once word got around they'd updated their rules would no doubt work as some much needed positive publicity/advertising.

I would imagine a lot of gamers who have stopped playing palladium games due to the rules would pick up the compendium, just to see if it had changed to suit their tastes even if they ultimately didn't return to being PB customers. Those who are already fans would likely want it as well for obvious reasons.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:51 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10755
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Silveressa wrote:
jaymz wrote:
To be honest I am not sure we can....Kevin has been asked about it in the past on multiple occasions and has stated time and time again he has no interest in doing such a thing. In fact he didn't want to really do RUE when he did but "catered" to fan demand. He did it once and I wouldn't bet on him doing it again. Unfortunately.... :(


Perhaps if we can help show him it would be a good thing for PB in general it would help convince him of the positive aspect.

Just releasing the rules compendium as a pdf on drive-thru rpg for $8-$12 or so would generate a fair amount of cash I'd imagine, and the free publicity they'd get once word got around they'd updated their rules would no doubt work as some much needed positive publicity/advertising.

I would imagine a lot of gamers who have stopped playing palladium games due to the rules would pick up the compendium, just to see if it had changed to suit their tastes even if they ultimately didn't return to being PB customers. Those who are already fans would likely want it as well for obvious reasons.



I fully agree with your points to the good of why they should do it. Let's hope this reached Kevin :)

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:03 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staff

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2030
Interesting comments. A few points: As opposed to real reality, what we have here is conjecture. Palladium is going on 30 years in business and I guess some people just can't understand why or how that's possible. A few key facts. In the 1990s when collectible card games first appeared, many people who might have become role-players were diverted to cards. We, however, kept moving on. Today, about 30% of our players do not have regular access to a computer. Impossible? No. There are people who use a library computer or a buddy's. Some are stationed overseas.

And the other fact is the same people do post here but a sizable number of our fans do not. They are content to buy our books, enjoy them, and not visit these forums. Some are just not interested in the debates and are content to just use our books as they are. A new retailer called yesterday and wanted to pick up our books. I referred him to one of our distributors. I received a message from a retailer in Australia who wants to get our books. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising. Even old players who dropped out to get married, have kids and develop careers, have now come back, promising a new crop of young role-players as their kids get into gaming. When television first appeared, some thought the movie business was dead.

I'll be writing a little more about our first 30 years of producing RPGs after the 1st of the year.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:26 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
AlexM wrote:
Interesting comments. A few points: As opposed to real reality, what we have here is conjecture. Palladium is going on 30 years in business and I guess some people just can't understand why or how that's possible. A few key facts. In the 1990s when collectible card games first appeared, many people who might have become role-players were diverted to cards. We, however, kept moving on. Today, about 30% of our players do not have regular access to a computer. Impossible? No. There are people who use a library computer or a buddy's. Some are stationed overseas.

And the other fact is the same people do post here but a sizable number of our fans do not. They are content to buy our books, enjoy them, and not visit these forums. Some are just not interested in the debates and are content to just use our books as they are. A new retailer called yesterday and wanted to pick up our books. I referred him to one of our distributors. I received a message from a retailer in Australia who wants to get our books. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising. Even old players who dropped out to get married, have kids and develop careers, have now come back, promising a new crop of young role-players as their kids get into gaming. When television first appeared, some thought the movie business was dead.

I'll be writing a little more about our first 30 years of producing RPGs after the 1st of the year.




Alex Marciniszyn



Alex, would it be feasible for someone to do a website or even palladium to try and do such a site that gives more net content for people to use? hings like maybe parts of books that were ommitted? Additional equipment or classes that wre seen as not neccessary for books but cool? Stuff not used in a Rifter due to it not fitting a particular theme?

It seems PB is just a bit behind hte times in this regard in comparison to its direct competitors.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:41 pm
  

User avatar
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 3486
Location: Pasco, WA, USA
Comment: For the glory of Zeon and Zerebus, Sieg Zeon!

2D6 Palladium Forum History Geek Points
Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
So without those 24, Palladium Books is going out of business? You, think they should make changes that may alienate their existing fanbase to hopefully get those 24? Wizards of the Coast is screwed then, there are a lot more then 24 people mad about 4E.


The are three main difference between PB and Wotc. First Wotc has not lost a lot of market share that PB has. Second even if it may have cost them some fans they tried to fix their system. For good or bad too early to say imo at least they made an attempt. Third are you seriously trying to compare the PB fanabse with the Wotc fanbase. The Wotc fanbase is 10 times the PB fanbase if not more. If your going to compare rpg companies at least get one that has a similiar ganbase.


24 people does not equal the majority of Palladium market share either. Mention WoTC because every rule change they have made has resulted in angry customers.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:


Which I apologized to you about. What more do you want. If you think I am going to get on my hands and kness to beg your forgiveness it's not happening.


First I have never liked being called a liar. Also this is not the first time you have made personal attacks in my direction. You actions have lessen my desire to be so forgiving anymore.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
Have been posts from people who got tired of the way D&D was going and switched to Palladium. I would suggest going after people who don't like the way current systems are going. I rather see them emphasize what makes them unique then just copy more recent rule systems.


So your strategy is to wait and see until some fans became unhappy with D&D and other game systems you hope that amounts an increased means amount of fanbase. That's it. The bold new way to get people into PB. The same strategy that almost every other rpg company uses. Problem with that is rely too much on the hope factor. Right now this company needs new fans. Not fans they hope will come over. So in the end you wanting nothing to change. I figured it would be that yet I had thought to see something new on that front.


Yeah, only worked for 30 years. I don't like the current rule system idea to relay so heavily on miniatures and battlemaps. I think some "modern" systems have taken scaling skills down way to far. I like the Palladium rules because they don't have these problems. As for the hope factor your plan relies entire on the hope that a rule change will bring in more fans then it chases off.

As for your predictions of doom, been seeing predictions of the imminent death of Palladium Books for over 15 years.

Sureshot wrote:
Shawn Merrow wrote:
Think I need to take a break? I'm not the one falling back on personal insults to make my arguments and ignoring others viewpoints because I don't like them. Also have replied to other peoples posts in this thread.


So let me get this straight it's okay for you to lash out at someone when they say something bad about you not the other way around. All I said was that I did not beleive you because I overlooked gthe part about you reading emails. I apologized to you for it and you cannot seem to let it go. And I am the one incapable of letting it go. You overreacted and know it.


I know you have a history of making personal attacks toward me. Telling someone not to call you a liar is not an overreaction. I no longer see a reason to just smile when someone makes a personal attack in my direction.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:53 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Shawn, Sureshot, I thik you guys need to just stop responding to each other....honestly, you're not going to see eye to eye and aren't discussing the topic at hand any longer. I;d ratehr see the thread continue than it get locked because of this kind of thing. Agreed?

Now instead of a bunch of us throwing what we think is wrong how about we list what we think is wrong?

Maybe much of it cna be cleared up right ere and now and also we can work on getting osme kind of amjority opinion on what in fact needs clarifying or streamlining? I'll start:

Skills: There is some repetition and over abundance of skill sin many ways. Coo Many Computer Skills. Operation and Programming are in fact two seperate thigns BUT hacking is essentially a subset of prgramming. History. We do not need a specific history skill for everythign that may be history related. Same for Lore. One skill but define the parameter as opposed to an actual skill for each. This is something that d20 actually did prior to 4e.

Combat - There needs to be (imo) a Ranged Combat tree ala the HTH training tree. At least for those settings that use firearms extensively. weapon Scaling is also a large issue in the MDC games for many people.

Magic - it is not the great equalizer as it is written.

Psionics - actually I have no issue with how psionics work whatsoever.


now, discuss and add or clarify thigns :)

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:02 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:59 pm
Posts: 4060
Location: Ohio
jaymz wrote:
AlexM wrote:
Interesting comments. A few points: As opposed to real reality, what we have here is conjecture. Palladium is going on 30 years in business and I guess some people just can't understand why or how that's possible. A few key facts. In the 1990s when collectible card games first appeared, many people who might have become role-players were diverted to cards. We, however, kept moving on. Today, about 30% of our players do not have regular access to a computer. Impossible? No. There are people who use a library computer or a buddy's. Some are stationed overseas.

And the other fact is the same people do post here but a sizable number of our fans do not. They are content to buy our books, enjoy them, and not visit these forums. Some are just not interested in the debates and are content to just use our books as they are. A new retailer called yesterday and wanted to pick up our books. I referred him to one of our distributors. I received a message from a retailer in Australia who wants to get our books. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising. Even old players who dropped out to get married, have kids and develop careers, have now come back, promising a new crop of young role-players as their kids get into gaming. When television first appeared, some thought the movie business was dead.

I'll be writing a little more about our first 30 years of producing RPGs after the 1st of the year.




Alex Marciniszyn



Alex, would it be feasible for someone to do a website or even palladium to try and do such a site that gives more net content for people to use? hings like maybe parts of books that were ommitted? Additional equipment or classes that wre seen as not neccessary for books but cool? Stuff not used in a Rifter due to it not fitting a particular theme?

It seems PB is just a bit behind hte times in this regard in comparison to its direct competitors.




Agreed. I see a number of younger players going elsewhere (posted something about that in this thread) because of web support. Now I believe a re-worked website was being planned on at some point (and could still be), and as mentioned with word of mouth being the most powerful advertisement tool, that new web site could be gold.

Also, on another question if you have the time Alex - is there any chance of a Palladium-style rules compendium in the future?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:54 pm
  

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Play nice people

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:55 pm
  

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Knight

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Dustin Fireblade wrote:
jaymz wrote:
AlexM wrote:
Interesting comments. A few points: As opposed to real reality, what we have here is conjecture. Palladium is going on 30 years in business and I guess some people just can't understand why or how that's possible. A few key facts. In the 1990s when collectible card games first appeared, many people who might have become role-players were diverted to cards. We, however, kept moving on. Today, about 30% of our players do not have regular access to a computer. Impossible? No. There are people who use a library computer or a buddy's. Some are stationed overseas.

And the other fact is the same people do post here but a sizable number of our fans do not. They are content to buy our books, enjoy them, and not visit these forums. Some are just not interested in the debates and are content to just use our books as they are. A new retailer called yesterday and wanted to pick up our books. I referred him to one of our distributors. I received a message from a retailer in Australia who wants to get our books. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising. Even old players who dropped out to get married, have kids and develop careers, have now come back, promising a new crop of young role-players as their kids get into gaming. When television first appeared, some thought the movie business was dead.

I'll be writing a little more about our first 30 years of producing RPGs after the 1st of the year.




Alex Marciniszyn



Alex, would it be feasible for someone to do a website or even palladium to try and do such a site that gives more net content for people to use? hings like maybe parts of books that were ommitted? Additional equipment or classes that wre seen as not neccessary for books but cool? Stuff not used in a Rifter due to it not fitting a particular theme?

It seems PB is just a bit behind hte times in this regard in comparison to its direct competitors.




Agreed. I see a number of younger players going elsewhere (posted something about that in this thread) because of web support. Now I believe a re-worked website was being planned on at some point (and could still be), and as mentioned with word of mouth being the most powerful advertisement tool, that new web site could be gold.

Also, on another question if you have the time Alex - is there any chance of a Palladium-style rules compendium in the future?
MY Question to add on is why not do a simple updated rules compendium? I again can't see a small updated rules compendium hurting PB, this site alone is a Big source of information from your fans on what they'd like to see. Streamlined combat, expanding on some skills while reducing a few and combining others, and template occ's these are the things I see brought up the most.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:35 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: Pasco, WA, USA
Comment: For the glory of Zeon and Zerebus, Sieg Zeon!

2D6 Palladium Forum History Geek Points
Dustin Fireblade wrote:
Agreed. I see a number of younger players going elsewhere (posted something about that in this thread) because of web support. Now I believe a re-worked website was being planned on at some point (and could still be), and as mentioned with word of mouth being the most powerful advertisement tool, that new web site could be gold.


A re-design of the website would be a good idea. When I was learning HTML white text on black background was on the not to do list. A section describing each game line would he helpful. Say what the game is about. How is the setting unique and why someone would like to play it. I agree some online content would also be a good idea (adventures and extras to small for a book). The online content is one thing I really liked about Savage Worlds.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:37 pm
  

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Palladin

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Shawn Merrow wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:
Agreed. I see a number of younger players going elsewhere (posted something about that in this thread) because of web support. Now I believe a re-worked website was being planned on at some point (and could still be), and as mentioned with word of mouth being the most powerful advertisement tool, that new web site could be gold.


A re-design of the website would be a good idea. When I was learning HTML white text on black background was on the not to do list. A section describing each game line would he helpful. Say what the game is about. How is the setting unique and why someone would like to play it. I agree some online content would also be a good idea (adventures and extras to small for a book). The online content is one thing I really liked about Savage Worlds.



It's also one of the things WotC seems to have grasped very well too. Once of FEW but one nonethelelss :D

_________________
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Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:54 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 3435
Sales have either fallen sharply or are flat.

Just because it has worked in the past is not a reason to stick with it. Everything can benefit from updating and redesigning.

Where are the legions of next generation Palladium gamers that will be needed to maintain the status quo?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:22 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Shawn it only happened twice. If you want to portray that as a history of being abusive toward you nothing I can do. I apologized both times and I am not proud of it. Why would I be it is nothing to be proud of. So in the interest of peace and trying to get back to topic how about you and I just put this issue behind us and move on. Too bad we do not have a handshake smiley.

_________________
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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:25 pm
  

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Silveressa wrote:
So after seven pages, am I correct in assuming, pretty much everyone posting in this thread is in agreement palladium would greatly benefit from releasing a "rules compendium" book that streamlines and corrects the current rules to make them more serviceable and feel less outdated? (One could almost call it palladium 2.5 edition :P )


Assuming so, how can we move forward with clarifying/organizing and presenting this idea to tptb to perhaps see this become a reality?



Well, obviously I agree on a rules compendium.


I think the first step though, is to make sure the rules are complete. Little things that might be missing, such as fatigue or how far a person can jump for example, should be included. I believe having the rules being in one book, complete and in detail, just by itself will be extremely helpful. It's one of the items I hear from detractors anyway, in that rules are scattered "all over" the place.

Where we need to be careful is that we don't want to invalidate decades worth of other previous books, so I don't believe there should be extreme changes. The changes with ranged combat from the RMB to RUE are probably the most extensive I've seen (and was a good change too IMHO). Another change in the way Secondary skills are selected is another example (and again, a very good one).


Mark Hall probably suggested the best possible house rule for skills in the Palladium Megaverse I've ever seen -
Quote:
Boil them down. They're not complicated, but the myriad of percentages are a chore. Three percentages (60/45/30), plus modifiers; skills become Easy (Basic Electronics), Moderate (Computer Repair), or Hard (Electrical Engineering). They get +5% per level, instead of looking things up. High is good, so long as you don't go over.


That's pretty simple and straightforward, and doesn't invalidate anything previously with the exception of perhaps adjusting your skill percentage on your character sheet.

The next thing about skills is that any rules compendium should include the entire skill list. Expand the skill descriptions as needed with notes on availability (For example - Electrical Engineer would note that it's not an option for Fantasy characters).


And that's all I really want from it -
1. All rules collected
2. Streamline the skill percentages


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:15 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
A website redesign would be a good thing imo. Just to point out the stuff that some of would like to see in this thread does not have to happen right this instant. A gradual process. As it takes time and money. And before I forget a presecene on Facebook. I find out more information about Pathfinder and 4E products not from the company websites from FB updates. So that is something that should definalty be looked into.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:18 pm
  

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Knight

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Sureshot wrote:
A website redesign would be a good thing imo. Just to point out the stuff that some of would like to see in this thread does not have to happen right this instant. A gradual process. As it takes time and money. And before I forget a presecene on Facebook. I find out more information about Pathfinder and 4E products not from the company websites from FB updates. So that is something that should definalty be looked into.

That's interesting - as I don't use facebook. But my boss mentioned that there are several applications out there that allow you to update several social networking sites at once with an update. So this is probably how most companies do that, and probably wouldn't take too long to update all the social networking sites after the initial setup.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:29 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
I think an actually FB page should take precedance over a website redesign imo. I do not always check to see if rpg companies websites are updated. I do check FB at least once a day. And from the looks of it social networking is the next big thing and here to stay.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:40 pm
  

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Knight

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Citizen Lazlo wrote:
Sales have either fallen sharply or are flat.

Just because it has worked in the past is not a reason to stick with it. Everything can benefit from updating and redesigning.

Where are the legions of next generation Palladium gamers that will be needed to maintain the status quo?

Another good question.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:00 pm
  

Champion

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 2798
Sureshot wrote:
A website redesign would be a good thing imo. Just to point out the stuff that some of would like to see in this thread does not have to happen right this instant. A gradual process. As it takes time and money. And before I forget a presecene on Facebook. I find out more information about Pathfinder and 4E products not from the company websites from FB updates. So that is something that should definalty be looked into.


Oh god yes on webdesign. The current site looks like it was put together in the 1990s by amateurs (which it was), and the best that can be said for it is that it doesn't look as bad as an awful lot of other homemade sites in the 90s. But as a first port of call for potential new customers in 2010, it's terrible. It's clunky, it's ugly, site navigation was obviously never even considered, it's cluttered, and (just like everything else Palladium makes) there is nothing that leaps out at your eyes as iconically Palladium-ish (seriously, a company logo or at least a distinctive font for titles isn't that hard folks).

First impressions count when you're trying to woo new customers, and potential customers who come here to check out this Rifts thing they've heard about aren't going to get a good first impression when they find a corporate website that looks like a fansite, full of rambling descriptions that read more like a fan review than anything else.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:25 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
Rallan wrote:
Oh god yes on webdesign. The current site looks like it was put together in the 1990s by amateurs (which it was), and the best that can be said for it is that it doesn't look as bad as an awful lot of other homemade sites in the 90s. But as a first port of call for potential new customers in 2010, it's terrible. It's clunky, it's ugly, site navigation was obviously never even considered, it's cluttered, and (just like everything else Palladium makes) there is nothing that leaps out at your eyes as iconically Palladium-ish (seriously, a company logo or at least a distinctive font for titles isn't that hard folks).

First impressions count when you're trying to woo new customers, and potential customers who come here to check out this Rifts thing they've heard about aren't going to get a good first impression when they find a corporate website that looks like a fansite, full of rambling descriptions that read more like a fan review than anything else.


Just a basic out of the box CRM or possibly even a Wordpress setup would do wonders for the site.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:27 pm
  

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Comment: J.V. Adams
Tiree wrote:
Sureshot wrote:
A website redesign would be a good thing imo. Just to point out the stuff that some of would like to see in this thread does not have to happen right this instant. A gradual process. As it takes time and money. And before I forget a presecene on Facebook. I find out more information about Pathfinder and 4E products not from the company websites from FB updates. So that is something that should definalty be looked into.

That's interesting - as I don't use facebook. But my boss mentioned that there are several applications out there that allow you to update several social networking sites at once with an update. So this is probably how most companies do that, and probably wouldn't take too long to update all the social networking sites after the initial setup.


http://hootsuite.com/ is one. You can monitor several social networking accounts from it at the same time.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:39 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Posts: 2284
Palladium should email those several hundred people who do not want any system changes and implore them to become involved in their local conventions, RPG forums and game store events.

Maybe then the Silent Majority will be heard by potential customers instead of the Cabal of 24.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:45 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 3435
Spinachcat wrote:
Palladium should email those several hundred people who do not want any system changes and implore them to become involved in their local conventions, RPG forums and game store events.

Maybe then the Silent Majority will be heard by potential customers instead of the Cabal of 24.


... and I am so stealing that sir!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:08 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
I am not a numbered gamer I am a free player lol.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:09 am
  

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Knight

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Sureshot wrote:
I am not a numbered gamer I am a free player lol.

For once A member of a Cabal :bandit:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:13 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Who do you GM for?

That would be telling.

What do you want?

To see your dice rolls

You wont get them!

By hook or by crook we will

Enough with the altered Prisoner references time for bed.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:34 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:01 pm
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Location: The State of Confusion
Comment: What if the Hokey Pokey really *is* what it's all about?
Sureshot wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
No Offense Shotty but that is generally how most of us did come to Pally. so Shawns wanting to use what has worked in the past is understandable. But I agree that we cannot rely on just converts. Pally does need to use a more aggressive means of attracting new players. But we cannot assume that any one of us "knows" the perfect method.


I agree it does work but it is one that requires to much of an element of chance. What is needed is more advertising and they really should be trying to put themseleves all over the internet. The traditional way of word of mouth imo just does not work like it used to. Gamers are using the internet more and more to find about about new games. Trying to find out as much about a game as possible before investing in it.


The internet is the new word of mouth.
A stronger web presence (including fan sites) would work wonders.
As far as fan sites, maybe the PB leagal dept. could whip up a disclaimer notice for fans to put on their site that would absolve PB from legal snags.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:00 am
  

Champion

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The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:20 am
  

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Knight

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Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:34 am
  

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Knight

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Location: Using Shini's bake goods to take over the freelancers minds!!
Comment: Goodbye Cruel world.... Wait, I'm back.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?

Either is bad for PR

_________________
taalismn wrote:

"I have a technique of my own to counter you lot! It's called 'radio comlink' SUMMON NINJABUNNY STEALTH GUNSHIP SQUADRON!"

I am a customer First and a Fan second.
Killer Cyborg wrote:
"The party IS over if Ninjabunny's not there."

Member of the Cabal of 24.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:48 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:01 am
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Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?


Dude, we're on a forum where posts routinely get deleted whenever someone suggests that such and such a Marvel or DC character would have such and such a Heroes Unlimited power while they're discussing how best to do common superhero tropes in a campaign. I'm surprised you felt the need to ask.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:06 am
  

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Knight

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Rallan wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?


Dude, we're on a forum where posts routinely get deleted whenever someone suggests that such and such a Marvel or DC character would have such and such a Heroes Unlimited power while they're discussing how best to do common superhero tropes in a campaign. I'm surprised you felt the need to ask.
so deleting a post that violates the rules (that you agreed to adhere to when you joined) is bad?
And you have proof that fan sites have been removed or "assaulted" by Pallys legal team?

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:26 am
  

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Knight

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Ninjabunny wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?

Either is bad for PR

considering the litigious nature of certain companies (Lucasarts, Warner Brothers, Marvel group, Mcfarlan, etc) Better to err on the safe side. Besides Lucasarts has gone after the owners of rpgs for not policing their fanbases, the suits often name them along with the offending fan (should it get that far). The same for both WB and MG for converting their heroes. (and dont think for a moment that Todd McFarlan wont name anyone remotely related to the fansite in his suits.)
Many White wolf fans complain that they too receive C&Ds from WW when they convert protected material (contrary to what rallan has stated). I am aware of many such fansites for other game companies that have received C&Ds from their favorite company after putting up conversions of Jedi's, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Harry Dresden, etc. Palladium is no more or less draconian in their protection of their asses than any other company. once a copyright infringment is made known to the legal dept. of those companies they respond with the same haste as Palladiums. Pallys is just better well informed than most. (due to the fans from here giving Kevin and co. a heads up when we find them.)

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:47 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 2798
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?


Dude, we're on a forum where posts routinely get deleted whenever someone suggests that such and such a Marvel or DC character would have such and such a Heroes Unlimited power while they're discussing how best to do common superhero tropes in a campaign. I'm surprised you felt the need to ask.
so deleting a post that violates the rules (that you agreed to adhere to when you joined) is bad?
And you have proof that fan sites have been removed or "assaulted" by Pallys legal team?


You asked for examples of Palladium's overzealous approach to protecting IP in action. I pointed out that you don't even have to leave this site to see it. Are you finding this hard to understand, or are you just being pedantic because you feel the need to try and rebut every single criticism anyone on this thread makes?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:51 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 2798
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?

Either is bad for PR

considering the litigious nature of certain companies (Lucasarts, Warner Brothers, Marvel group, Mcfarlan, etc) Better to err on the safe side. Besides Lucasarts has gone after the owners of rpgs for not policing their fanbases, the suits often name them along with the offending fan (should it get that far). The same for both WB and MG for converting their heroes. (and dont think for a moment that Todd McFarlan wont name anyone remotely related to the fansite in his suits.)
Many White wolf fans complain that they too receive C&Ds from WW when they convert protected material (contrary to what rallan has stated). I am aware of many such fansites for other game companies that have received C&Ds from their favorite company after putting up conversions of Jedi's, Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Harry Dresden, etc. Palladium is no more or less draconian in their protection of their asses than any other company. once a copyright infringment is made known to the legal dept. of those companies they respond with the same haste as Palladiums. Pallys is just better well informed than most. (due to the fans from here giving Kevin and co. a heads up when we find them.)


So wait, you ask me for proof and then in your own next post admit that Palladium does what I say? I guess that answers the question I just asked in my last post :D

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:00 am
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:05 am
Posts: 7
Well i have just spent a little over a hour reading all these post. Some where well informed some where just arguing for the sake of a point, and quite a few where really good points. I have played/ran (ok ran more than i ever played :lol: ) Pal since Robotech stayed with it till about Madhaven. Picked it back up recently with new players. Sure the rules do constrain somethings due to space limitations, need for story arks, want to see one side come out ahead, hell even for the sake of that just looks cool.

Some things i would love to see:
1 condense some of the rules in a pdf format sell it for any amount up to 30 usd (if writers didn't have time i would do it for free just to have it done)

2 Take some time to rework out the ranged combat so it flows better
Examples:
A) A glitter boy is at max range nearly a mile away yet a juicer can dodge a flettecte round roughly the size of a beer can moving above the speed of sound. (Mach 5) how would he even be aware of it? Much less get out of way?
B) there are no rules for simple things like laser sights (i get this complaint a lot)
C) have missile combat retooled with the focus on reflex time and speed of person/mech (easy way if character dose not have a dodge bonus of x they do not have chance of dodging x number of i missiles) (robotech is whole different thread :eek: )
D) Let distance vs strength especially for Supernatural PS matter more for archaic weapons or improvised. (you don't want to know the headache of trying to justifying damage and accuracy of a character who flicks penny's at people at dam near super sonic speeds)
E) as mentioned previously by Silveressa (love the physics examples) burst shots vs distance to target

3) Skills could use a little rework by cutting out the fluff the skill tree suggestion was pretty good. Or even better make a way for characters to learn skills with out levels charge experience. Stream skills into a progressive chart if u have to computer basic let them take computer programing for less than buying out right (i have meet people who could program a computer to do flips yet could not operate a slot machine :eek: )

4) Take a small section dose not have to be more than a paragraph to justify multiple occ/pcc/rcc. by what it would do to a person to learn something new to leave a part of their life behind. Do u still know what u did sure are u going to practice it everyday while u learn new things no.

5) give characters a bonus to damage in hand to hand if they know anatomy, have medical skills beyond first aid/paramedic. (try fighting someone who wants to maim u. Who know exactly what tendons to cut with a quick slice of a knife. So u are having to ask for help opening ur mustard jar for the rest of ur life.)

6) Explain difference between a entity creating a body to interact on this plane vs one who travels here. Are they biologically different? what all dose bioregenration restore for such a entity? (had to really look at the rules when a smart ass blew his 7th level characters life savings buying parasites and restraining gear from Atlantis 2. Then wrapped up War like a thanksgiving turkey. Then giving him a lobotomy with a depleted uranium spike to the brain pan. :badbad: ) :lol:

7) with out making this too long have a single format for character sheets that is easy to understand. (i counted there are 5 different formats right now just for rifts)

I fully support Palladium Books in what it is doing about going forward trying to fix thing with out a major over haul. Time vs money vs demand in this economy not even counting the set back ouch!! to my math came out to be like 1.7 million usd with advertising ect. rough guess. Could the rules get overhauled in a smoother format way sure. If they had a complete list of what was wrong. With page numbers, book source, context, and no complaints just facts. Then it might be possible. Could we convince the powers that be to do it if we had a complete list with ways to fix it with out bogging it down maybe. (got to have hope :D )

What do you think?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:33 am
  

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Champion

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Cord wrote:

<snip>

What do you think?


You've got some decent ideas there Cord but some of them, for me anyway, would add an unnecessary level of complication into the system - each to their own. :)

Personally I see the rules as a means to an end - a rough framework that allows me as GM to improvise a kick-ass story with my players, all in the name of fun and a few hours of escapism.

There should be a balance between Simplicity and Realism and which way the see-saw should tip will vary in-line with the preferences of individual GMs/Payers.

I think Palladium could use a little work on presentation, but there's little of substance I would change really. I'm not going to pretend that I could run an RPG company better than Kev and his team.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:30 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
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Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Rallan wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Rallan wrote:
The legal department is the only reason fan sites run into legal snags in the first place. Palladium tends to come out with its guns blazing and put pressure on fans to take down stuff that no other RPG company gives a fart about (and which, if four decades of RPG companies not being sued over fan-made works is anything to go by) isn't worth giving a fart about. Palladium fan sites are anemic and make the fan community look smaller and less vibrant than it could be because of Palladium's attitude towards them.
Is that personal experience talking or word of mouth about how Pally reacts?


Dude, we're on a forum where posts routinely get deleted whenever someone suggests that such and such a Marvel or DC character would have such and such a Heroes Unlimited power while they're discussing how best to do common superhero tropes in a campaign. I'm surprised you felt the need to ask.
so deleting a post that violates the rules (that you agreed to adhere to when you joined) is bad?
And you have proof that fan sites have been removed or "assaulted" by Pallys legal team?


You asked for examples of Palladium's overzealous approach to protecting IP in action. I pointed out that you don't even have to leave this site to see it. Are you finding this hard to understand, or are you just being pedantic because you feel the need to try and rebut every single criticism anyone on this thread makes?
no not everyones posts. just the ones the ones that use outrageous claims and dont back them up with actual proof.
and I ask again is this from actual experience or from second hand information? citing this web sites actions is not backing this argument.

_________________
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"


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