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 Post subject: Magic should be "better"
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:43 pm
  

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Palladin

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Having played PB games for 30+ years now....

In Rifts, and to a slightly lesser extent Heroes Unlimited, Magic is ridiculously underpowered and no where near the "equalizer" the creator tries to make it out to be or should be. Lack of anti-tech spells, lack of range, lack of effect, lack of scope....

Change my mind.

Discuss.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:01 pm
  

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Rather than argue in opposition, I'd ask instead, what do you propose as an alternative? How would you fix the issue?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:14 pm
  

Hero

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In before someone whines that this is in the wrong forum.

I'd argue that while the range of most spells is left appropriately commensurate with archery, there are sufficient effects unavailable anywhere else that most casters punch well above their weight. If a given game agreed to increase ranges of spells in a setting where high technology is available, done perhaps simply as an amendment to one of the entries in DB7's tables, I wouldn't think it out of place. While there are some anti-tech spells available, I'd be curious as to what additional ones people think are necessary.

That said, Mystics/Druids/some of the Shaman type classes wouldn't disrupt things if they got a little boost, just due to the general disparity between per level advancement and front loaded characters. I'd ideally want to refit most intuitive-style casters into a more modular framework where a Mystic Knight, for example, is a variety of better-than-average Mystic whom gave up most higher level spell access for energy manipulation abilities and a bump to combat skills. By comparison, most of the Druid classes are nearly a whole tier weaker than an average Mystic, such that combining two different varieties' shticks (like a Filidh's Mystic Herbology and a PFRPG's per level stuff) would bring them up to par with the sorts of characters found in many games.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:33 pm
  

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Monk

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jaymz wrote:
Having played PB games for 30+ years now....

In Rifts, and to a slightly lesser extent Heroes Unlimited, Magic is ridiculously underpowered and no where near the "equalizer" the creator tries to make it out to be or should be. Lack of anti-tech spells, lack of range, lack of effect, lack of scope....

Change my mind.

Discuss.

'Have you searched the invented magic topic in the Magic & psi forum?' is my mildly disguised suggestion as a question.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:37 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
Having played PB games for 30+ years now....

In Rifts, and to a slightly lesser extent Heroes Unlimited, Magic is ridiculously underpowered and no where near the "equalizer" the creator tries to make it out to be or should be. Lack of anti-tech spells, lack of range, lack of effect, lack of scope....

Change my mind.

Discuss.


I'd say that everything needs to be "better."
Improvement is by definition a good thing.

As for magic being underpowered...
Generally when people complain that magic is underpowered, they're reasoning is basically that they see magic and tech as equal and opposing forces that should be balanced, that magic should be able to do everything that tech can do.
But I see that kind of thinking as akin to saying, "My screwdriver needs to be able to do everything a hammer can do," or "My dog should be able to climb trees like cats do."

I think it ruins things when everything is "balanced" by making them essentially identical in every way except for the name and a few superficial details.
If one guy has a tech pickup truck, and another guy guy has a TW pickup truck that's exactly the same except that one runs off of gas and the other runs off of PPE? That's only mildly interesting to me, balanced or not.
If a fireball has the exact same range, area of affect, and damage as a mini-missile... that's also pretty boring. It turns magic from something special and extraordinary into a simple aesthetic preference that doesn't make much actual difference in the world.
The last thing I want is to see tech and magic be identical in every way but name.

Magic isn't more powerful than tech because spells can outperform guns at their own game.
Magic is more powerful than tech because a mage can kill you while he's invisible, and you don't even know he's there.
Magic isn't more powerful than tech because a mage can fly as fast as a jet fighter; it's more powerful because a mage can fly without a jet fighter.
Magic isn't more powerful than tech because it can match or beat tech at its own game; it's more powerful than tech because it has its OWN game, and tech cannot compete in that arena.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:57 am
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
As for the listed specifics:

1. "Lack of anti-tech spells"
I can name several anti-tech spells.
I can name zero anti-magic tech devices beyond cyber implants that impair spellcasting, and that's not quite the same as being able to effectively Counterspell an attack that an opponent is making.

2. "Lack of Range"
Yeah, okay... I can definitely see that complaint when you match something like Fire Bolt's range to standard laser rifle.
But that's not the whole picture.
A Whalesinger's Song of Revenge has UNLIMITED range. Other Songs have ranges of hundreds of miles PER LEVEL.
Summon & Control Rain has a range of 10 miles per level.
Rift Teleportation has a range of 100 miles per level.
Power Bolt has a range of 1600' + 100' per level. After 4th level, that out-ranges most energy rifles and pistols.
Summon Storm has a range of 1 mile per level.
The list of magic that out-ranges tech goes on, and on, and on.

And you're probably thinking, "but Summon Storm isn't the equivalent of a standard tech attack like shooting somebody with a laser."
And you're right, in part because THERE IS NO TECH EQUIVALENT TO SUMMONING A STORM.
Magic can do tons of stuff that tech simply cannot touch in Palladium's megaverse.
On top of being able to do all that, you ALSO need to have magic be able to out-rifle rifles?
I don't see why.

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Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:13 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

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have you seen lv 6 and 7 warlock spells? dear god, those things are basically "acts of god" tier, and include a number of spells classifiable as WMD's. and they scale with level and are available at mid-level. and even lower level LLW magic can do things high end tech can't. teleport. become fully invisible. become and move through shadows. animate the dead. etc. stuff that you need "plot device ultra super advanced" stuff for tech to pull off.

magic doesn't need boosting. people need to stop trying to force magic to fit into technology's shape.

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