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Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:38 pm**

Hello All, I think this question may have been addressed in another forum question to some degree but I can't recall where. So, if you can direct me there that would serve as well. But, my question is: Is there a source book that defines each of these classifications (Supernatural Monsters, Creatures of Magic, [regular?] Monsters, Alien Intelligence, are there more) and exactly what differentiates them? I think that the GM guide (and perhaps even RUE) might have a brief definition of Supernatural and Creatures of Magic. And, doesn't one of these categories, when slain, simply vanish (return to its home dimension) and doesn't leave behind a corpse? Which one is that? And on a related note: One of my players likes to use his Xenology skill to identify what the group might encounter based on descriptions of the creature from eye witness accounts: appearance, described behaviors, etc. What creatures fall under the category of Xenology? Isn't anything that would come through a rift essentially an alien? Anyhoo, I'm a bit fuzzy on these categories and how they may overlap. Thanks!

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:48 pm**

basically no.

i mean, technically yes, but it isn't consistent from book to book what counts as what, or what makes something a creature of magic vs a supernatural being, etc.

Posted: **Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:13 pm**

jburkett wrote:Hello All, I think this question may have been addressed in another forum question to some degree but I can't recall where. So, if you can direct me there that would serve as well. But, my question is: Is there a source book that defines each of these classifications (Supernatural Monsters, Creatures of Magic, [regular?] Monsters, Alien Intelligence, are there more) and exactly what differentiates them?

Page 8 of Mysteries of Magic 1 has definitions for both CoM and SNB.

And, doesn't one of these categories, when slain, simply vanish (return to its home dimension) and doesn't leave behind a corpse? Which one is that?

That would be both the true demons (the ones from Hades) and the devils. However be aware that the early books never said anything about either side having that ability. It wasn't until DB10 (AFAIK) that this was first mentioned.

And on a related note: One of my players likes to use his Xenology skill to identify what the group might encounter based on descriptions of the creature from eye witness accounts: appearance, described behaviors, etc. What creatures fall under the category of Xenology? Isn't anything that would come through a rift essentially an alien?

Personally I'd confine the Xenology skill to mortal (humans, elves, wolfen, noro, ect) species for the most part, and leave the monsters to the appropriate lore skills. Though I may allow a player to identify a monster using that skill (maybe at a penalty) if no one else in the group has the appropriate skills.

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:12 am**

jburkett wrote:Hello All, I think this question may have been addressed in another forum question to some degree but I can't recall where. So, if you can direct me there that would serve as well. But, my question is: Is there a source book that defines each of these classifications (Supernatural Monsters, Creatures of Magic, [regular?] Monsters, Alien Intelligence, are there more) and exactly what differentiates them? I think that the GM guide (and perhaps even RUE) might have a brief definition of Supernatural and Creatures of Magic.

Greetings and Salutations. That might've been this recent thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=156653

There, I posted this from RUE ...

Spoiler:

Previous books (and maybe even some after) are inconsistent in the usage of the two terms, so some people may argue if the RUE passage is accurate and/or still applicable.

jburkett wrote:And, doesn't one of these categories, when slain, simply vanish (return to its home dimension) and doesn't leave behind a corpse? Which one is that?

Per RUE, that would be Supernatural Beings (which predates the information in Hades and Dyval books, and RUE is the source the author used for the ability in those books).

jburkett wrote:And on a related note: One of my players likes to use his Xenology skill to identify what the group might encounter based on descriptions of the creature from eye witness accounts: appearance, described behaviors, etc. What creatures fall under the category of Xenology? Isn't anything that would come through a rift essentially an alien? Anyhoo, I'm a bit fuzzy on these categories and how they may overlap. Thanks!

Probably a G.M. call, but if I remember later I can research the question more when I have access to my books (in bed at the moment).

Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:23 pm**

Prysus wrote:Per RUE, that would be Supernatural Beings (which predates the information in Hades and Dyval books, and RUE is the source the author used for the ability in those books).

Hades/Dyval can leave bits of corpses...

Am I wrong or did Triax 2 mention something about dissecting Gargoyle corpses? How would that work if supernatural beings don't leave them?

The RUE writeup is clearly intended for demon/god (greater) SNBs.

Posted: **Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:00 pm**

Axelmania wrote:
Prysus wrote:Per RUE, that would be Supernatural Beings (which predates the information in Hades and Dyval books, and RUE is the source the author used for the ability in those books).

Hades/Dyval can leave bits of corpses...

Am I wrong or did Triax 2 mention something about dissecting Gargoyle corpses? How would that work if supernatural beings don't leave them?

The RUE writeup is clearly intended for demon/god (greater) SNBs.

No only one of the paragraphs in rue is clearly intended for greater Super natural beings. As written it applies to all SN as the made as gneral statement about SN. (it did not open with a clear statment limiting the whole sections but as a general statement.)

Example If I talk about service members be they soldiers or air men.

1st paragraph I make a general statement about why many people join.

2nd paragraph I can talk about the physical requirements and training of just the army and air force.

3rd paragraph I can talk about military retirement.

4th I can talk about the benefits available to those that serve.

By your logic I am only talking about the army force. Event though the statements in 1st 3rd and 4th paraph would apply to army air force, navy, and marines. Using examples of extreams does not limit a statment to just them. Making a limited statement in the second paragraph does not limit the whole text. It is not clearly just limited to two branches.

Posted: **Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:15 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Prysus wrote:Per RUE, that would be Supernatural Beings (which predates the information in Hades and Dyval books, and RUE is the source the author used for the ability in those books).

Hades/Dyval can leave bits of corpses...

Am I wrong or did Triax 2 mention something about dissecting Gargoyle corpses? How would that work if supernatural beings don't leave them?

The RUE writeup is clearly intended for demon/god (greater) SNBs.

No only one of the paragraphs in rue is clearly intended for greater Super natural beings. As written it applies to all SN as the made as gneral statement about SN. (it did not open with a clear statment limiting the whole sections but as a general statement.)

Just to be sure we're all talking about the same passages can you please tell me the page number where this can be found? Perhaps these categories are discussed in more than one place in RUE? thanks!

Posted: **Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:11 pm**

jburkett wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Prysus wrote:Per RUE, that would be Supernatural Beings (which predates the information in Hades and Dyval books, and RUE is the source the author used for the ability in those books).

Hades/Dyval can leave bits of corpses...

Am I wrong or did Triax 2 mention something about dissecting Gargoyle corpses? How would that work if supernatural beings don't leave them?

The RUE writeup is clearly intended for demon/god (greater) SNBs.

No only one of the paragraphs in rue is clearly intended for greater Super natural beings. As written it applies to all SN as the made as gneral statement about SN. (it did not open with a clear statment limiting the whole sections but as a general statement.)

Just to be sure we're all talking about the same passages can you please tell me the page number where this can be found? Perhaps these categories are discussed in more than one place in RUE? thanks!

rue 277 wrote:Demons, Gods & Supernatural Beings: All supernatural beings, be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal. They are not creatures of our Earth or reality, but the denizens of an alien reality. As such, they are not even part of our plane of existence and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension. Thus, when they are slain on Rifts Earth or any mortal world, they disintegrate or vanish like a ghost as if they never existed. Only when slain in their native dimension or some similar supernatural realm is the creature truly killed. When struck down on Earth, the monster vanishes and reappears in its native environment. The ordeal of dying in the mortal plane prevents it from returning to that reality for decades, often lD8xlOO years.

One way for great supernatural beings to enter our plane of existence is by sending forth lesser servants and communing with mortals so that they may gather mortal worshipers. The more worshipers the supernatural being gathers, the stronger its link to the mortal plane. The stronger the creature's link to our world, the greater influence and power it has over humans and other mortals, and the more demonic minions it can send into our world. In most cases, beings on the level of a god (including Alien Intelligences) must have thousands or even hundreds of thousands of worshipers or believers before they can materialize in that plane of existence. Others can only appear for a brief period (minutes at a time) which is why they speak through their priests, servants and demonic hordes under their command.

To be at their most powerful, they must take physical form. This is easy for lesser and greater demons, Dyvalians and other similar supernatural beings, forming their bodies from ectoplasm and insects, vermin, dead bodies or a living human host. The Rifts make our Earth and their weird dimensions easy to bridge, enabling them to pop right out of a dimensional Rift whole and fully formed and ready for action.

All demons and most supernatural beings are inhuman by their very nature and have little in common with humans or any other mortal being even if they appear human. Demons, in particular, are evil incarnate and see themselves as superior to humans and D-Bees. Mortals are lesser beings, and are preyed upon as if they were animals, or are regarded as playthings, pawns, or worshipers to be deceived and used. The inhuman nature of the supernatural beings make them and humans (and D-Bees) natural enemies.

The 1st paragraph is gods, demons and other supernatural beings and says all Supernautaul beings. Making it a general statement about all SN not a statement about greater SN.

Second paragraph is talking about greater SN.

3rd paragraph is talking about the need to take physical form and says it is easier for lesser and greater demons devihils and similar SN beings.-nothing implies it is limited to just greater SN.

4th paragraph is about all demons and most SN-so again not limited to just greater SN as lesser SN could be part of most SN.

So it is not clear that it is only intend that the whole text is on greater SN. The wording in the first paragraph disproves that it is only talking about greater sn as it clearly says all. All SN includes lesser SN.

Posted: **Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:43 pm**

Blue_Lion wrote:The 1st paragraph is gods, demons and other supernatural beings and says all Supernautaul beings.
..
The wording in the first paragraph disproves that it is only talking about greater sn as it clearly says all. All SN includes lesser SN.

"be they gods or demons". If you are neither, you do not fulfill that requirement.

Posted: **Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:13 pm**

Gargoyles born on Earth would leave a corpse on Earth... since they would be native here, and not discorporate and they would not be 'returning' to a native plane to be reborn.
Obviously they dissected a Gargoyle hatched on Earth then.

Posted: **Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:16 pm**

This sort of thing makes it hard to take trophies when demon hunting. I think I'll need to make a spell for that...

Posted: **Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:04 pm**

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:The 1st paragraph is gods, demons and other supernatural beings and says all Supernautaul beings.
..
The wording in the first paragraph disproves that it is only talking about greater sn as it clearly says all. All SN includes lesser SN.

"be they gods or demons". If you are neither, you do not fulfill that requirement.

That is example of and not a limiting statement. Which is clear from the whole sentence.

All supernatural beings, be they gods or demons, are inhuman and immortal.

All supernatural beings,-means every supernatural being.
be they gods or demons-examples represtning entirely difrent sources not in itself a limiting statement. So there is no requirement to be gods or demons.

You do noot need to be the example of SN to be part of All SN. There is no requirement for all supernatural beings to be gods or demons.

All fruit be they aples or ornges are found in the produce sections. -means that banas are found in the prodcue section.

All members of the armed forces be they soldiers or sailors have sworn a oath.-air men are still part of all service members even though they are not soldiers or sailors.

You are confusing examples for limits. The section is called demons, gods and supernatural beings - so they are not just talking about demons and gods.

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:41 am**

Demons and Gods ARE supernatural beings.

Undead Slayers are supernatural beings, they are neither inhuman or immortal

"All .. be they .. " is clearly intended to specify requirements, however much the phrasing disagrees with your aesthetics.

Demons and Gods are already known to be immortal and human, so it doesn't make sense to use them as examples of things you wouldn't think would fit those criteria.

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:43 pm**

Warning: I sense Pedantic Quibbling ahead.

Posted: **Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:19 am**

Mack wrote:Warning: I sense Pedantic Quibbling ahead.

I will try not to get there.

1 As was pointed out before RUE basically redined what SN was. So trying to use earlier books to disprove a change in rules is flawed approach.

2 The undead slayer does not say it is not immortal, or even human. They are True Atlanteans, so that does make them inhuman in some respect. They also have inhuman powers.

3 considered to be something does not mean it truly is that. (I consider TW the best class in rifts that does not make it true.) Considered is a belief not an absolute.

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:25 am**

If you think that RUE has effectively re-classified any previous things as no longer being supernatural beings, could you provide a list?

Perhaps the alternative scenario is that it didn't reclassify anything, and is being misread as broader than intended, by reading it one of two possible ways.

Posted: **Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:21 pm**

Okay, let's see if we can find a way to get to common ground.

I believe KS was generally inconsistent in regards to the supernatural.

The common threads boil down to:

Otherworldly (usually dimensional traveler)
Has an attribute of high value
Has a natural ability or trait that is not usually common among "mortal" beings.

Gods can include nearly anyone (dogboy/cyborg/vampire)

Monsters are generally listed as
Inhuman looking, or so evil that they are considered a supernatural force on their own. Renouncing morality and mortality for power. Most don't think twice of killing others.

Common distinctions
Gods demand or need worship, and interact (or have) in some manner to influence "mortal beings"

Monsters do not "generally" need worship
Generally can be considered a force of nature whose actions are just as equally conscious or second nature.

And Supernatural beings are generally massive powerhouses that travel multiple dimensions and are a large threat on their own that a player group generally isn't going to take out on their own without assistance of some form.

Bottom line: if a being is beyond the level of "common mortals" (in this case average citizens) they can be lumped into "supernatural"

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2019 12:30 am**

Just for fun I would like to point out that Jinn are both Supernatural Beings (since they are Greater Demons) and Creatures of Magic (as per their racial description in both Dark Conversions and Hades).
Thus we can safely say that it is possible to be both at the same time further muddying the water.

I would also point out that while the descriptions throw "never" and "always" around a lot... they do that a lot in tons of other areas which are promptly ignored.
The Splugorth will hunt down anyone who discovers any fragments of Rune Magic... except for the Norse, and Greeks, and Hades Demons, and Deevils of Dyval, and Dwarves of the 3Gs, and....

No one has ever gotten any bio-wizardry. Other than Succor-Bemoth. And Diabolus. And the renegade that serves Hecate. And the renegade that is openly running a store in Calgary.

You can never buy a Danzi Tattoo... unless of course you go to the city where the guy sells it.

You can never do X... unless you do Y or Z.
Thus I am leery of anyone citing a "this is the One True Rule" based on a general sweeping statement that is full of always and never statements. Especially when we have a lot of counter examples that don't seem to support it... (such as how True Atlantian Tattoo-Men are supernatural beings, but are NOT immortal)

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2019 2:02 am**

Well, in fairness, the Splugorth could be hunting the Norse/Greeks/Hadesians/Dyvalians but it's a half-hearted hunt that may not always be a top priority in respect to other needs.

Treating supernaturality as a retroactive "you all live forever" rule would certainly be interesting, and given how we tend to see "average life span" rather than "maximum life span", I wonder how many races are actually capped at all...

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2019 9:49 am**

Shark_Force wrote:basically no.

i mean, technically yes, but it isn't consistent from book to book what counts as what, or what makes something a creature of magic vs a supernatural being, etc.

This is one thing I am kinda hoping for from the bestiary. Some more consistency and perhaps actually labeling if a creature is supernatural/creature of magic or a normal creature in the stat block. There are a lot of spells that need those identifiers to work off of but they are really erratically applied in the various world books.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2019 9:51 am**

eliakon wrote:Gargoyles born on Earth would leave a corpse on Earth... since they would be native here, and not discorporate and they would not be 'returning' to a native plane to be reborn.
Obviously they dissected a Gargoyle hatched on Earth then.

Gargoyles are not full demons they are sub demons so they still give birth live and die like a mortal creature. You don't get the full resurrect back in your home dimension thing until full demon status.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2019 4:22 pm**

DB10 page 20 lists rates for "Lesser Demons, Sub-Demons and Fallen" though, and page 21 explicitly mentions "Gargoyles appear
one third their size and have misshapen vestigial wings Gurgoyles and Gargoylites have no wings or tails at all and appear at half their normal size" and further down "Most Lesser Demons and Sub-Demons forget about the incident. After all, decades have passed since their death and rebirth"

The "Discorporation Period" and "Rebirth Gestation Period" listed only specifies Lesser Demons though, so even though there's some implication they would be the same as lesser demons due to that collective description, there's some wiggle room to make it longer.

I always found it odd how the supreme power of the Lords causes them a further down period yet Greater regen faster than Lesser...

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:08 pm**

Sorry to revive an old thread, but with the Bestiary out I thought I'd make some comments here (which, frankly, don't clarify anything)...

Bestiary p.12 wrote:What qualified for this book?
...
And no supernatural beings or intelligent creatures of magic like dragons and Faeries, or ghosts, spirits/Entities or intelligent supernatural beings.

Great. Clear as day. No supernatural beings (is a "being" different than a "creature"?) in this book. So, by deduction, nothing in this book that a Shifter can summon.

Bestiary p.21 - Aegis Buffalo wrote:Aegis Buffalo hate being controlled or enslaved and do not like nor willingly serve Simvan, Psi-Stalkers, Shifters or Druids.

Bestiary p.32 - Alien Rex wrote:There have also been reports of Alien Rex in the Magic Zone (Ohio Valley), but this is likely to be the result of Shifters summoning the beast and others bringing them to the area

Bestiary p.54 - Mega-Bear wrote:Simvan, Psi-Stalkers, Psi-Druids, some Shamans, and Shifters may, from time to time, try to control, command and even ride this beast with varying levels of success

This goes on and on. There are dozens of references to Shifters summoning and controlling the creatures within this book. So, either the creatures noted are indeed supernatural, or the Shifter's summoning/controlling isn't actually limited to supernatural creatures as stated in RUE.

Posted: **Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:07 pm**

Topic locked due to Necro-Posting.

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