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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:19 am
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
I love NG1. Congrats on another great publication Palladium.

I gotta say if you've ever felt like giant robots, mecha, whatever you call them, needed to be fleshed out in Rifts this is totally your book. All of the new robots feel powerful and threatening without being unbalanced, instead of feeling like all of these robots are have just been made better than the older bots, it feels like bots themselves have been addressed in more detail and have come along in packing an appropriate amount of armor and firepower for their size.

For the robot jockey in me, this is a great addition as not only are there a ton of great new bots (I really do like the new designs a great deal), but there are so many that as a GM it gives me a good range of prices, armor and armament to consider designing my own material for campaigns based on. The book very nicely addresses the difference between old and new NG technology and gives different statistics for new revisions of certain things, like how some weapons have been redesigned to weigh less over time and etc. I don't want to give too much away because reading this one is really a treat, but suffice to say there is a ton of great stuff in this book!

Other notes:
I really love new gear and the stuff in NG1 is done very well, so I spent most of my review gushing about it, but all of the fluff is really well done and extremely comprehensive. For all you New GMs and aspiring GMs out there, NG1 is filled with the type of stuff that will inspire you to make amazing campaigns in the same way Vampire Kingdoms inspired us when it was first released way back when.

All the art is great. Mr. Walton, well done, sir, your stuff really makes the book shine. There is other great art in it as well from other great artists, but Walton really takes the prize on this one.

There is also a bunch of awesome NG infantry weapons and a ton of really detailed and great info about Northern Gun in the book. The bots steal the show for me, but I'm a fan, there is something in this book for any Rifts fan, even if you're not into robot combat.

It's hefty, feels like one of my bigger Rifts sourcebooks for sure.

I can't wait for NG2!

Rating: 10/10. I love combat robots and "gear books" so I'm slightly biased, but NG1 is my favorite Rifts sourcebook to be released lately and is easily in the running for one of my favorite books, though I'll of course read it and re-read it for a while before daring to put it up there with Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis (two of my favorite Rifts books of all time)

Quick Ratings of Other Products for Comparison:
Black Market: 9/10
Triax 2: 8.5/10
Lemuria: 7/10
Vampire Kingdoms Revised: 10/10
Vampires Sourcebook: 7.5/10
Atlantis: 9.5/10
Juicer Uprising: 9.5/10

Thats right... In my heart of hearts, I think I might like NG1 more than I like Juicer Uprising. Blasphemy, I know, and I've always loved Juicer Uprising, but... Robots... Juicers though... But robots... but juicers...

Make the Call (Is Rifts World Book 33: Northern Gun One Worth Buying?): Absolutely. It's an instant classic. If it had been released as World Book 3 instead of 33, Rifts would have grown and shaped differently, that's how good it is. With NG1 by your side, you can fill your world with combat robots. Not just merc bots, high tech bandits and CS bots, but real-feeling, front line combat robots that say "These are the droids'Bots you're looking for."

Now then, if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to writing my new Northern Gun campaign. Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:

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Last edited by popscythe on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:45 am
  

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
I feel like I gotta put in here, It's not "Just" a toybook. The first half of the book is setting with history and great detail of the setting. It's one of the more detailed -World- books to date and is presented quite well.

Yes it has a ton of bots and toys in the back, but the first 100 or so pages are pure setting before you get to the toys, and it'd be worth it, even with OUT the Bots an stuff.

I don't disagree with the above review. I do agree with it. I just didn't want people to think "Oh it's Naurani Wave Two. Just a book of guns and bots"

This thing is a complete world book in and of itself. It just also happens to have almost another book tacked on to the end of it, of bots and guns and such. You get the best of both worlds. Fluff and Crunch.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:52 am
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Yes it has a ton of bots and toys in the back, but the first 100 or so pages are pure setting before you get to the toys, and it'd be worth it, even with OUT the Bots an stuff.... You get the best of both worlds. Fluff and Crunch.


Completely agree. I really love new gear and the stuff in NG1 is done very well, so I spent most of my review gushing about it, but all of the fluff is really well done and extremely comprehensive. For all you New GMs and aspiring GMs out there, NG1 is filled with the type of stuff that will inspire you to make amazing campaigns in the same way Vampire Kingdoms inspired us when it was first released way back when. 10/10 and I'm not really a guy who gives 10/10 ratings.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:17 am
  

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now I find myself wondering if a juicers auto-dodge can be applied to the robot its piloting... Gun-Wolf + Juicer crew = :twisted:


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:34 am
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
Slight001 wrote:
now I find myself wondering if a juicers auto-dodge can be applied to the robot its piloting... Gun-Wolf + Juicer crew = :twisted:


I'm in, I'll be the Hyperion radar operator.

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Zarathustra was extremely accurate. He was talking about you, man.
Whoops! Looks like I was wrong about where Mos Eisley's located.
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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:56 pm
  

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Slight001 wrote:
now I find myself wondering if a juicers auto-dodge can be applied to the robot its piloting... Gun-Wolf + Juicer crew = :twisted:

i'm pretty sure the standard autotodge always carries over to a PA or robot.. the special "can dodge surprise attacks" version they can do probably doesn't. that one would require access to their own perceptions/senses.. something that would be more limited inside a robot. i mean, it isn't a psychic "spideysense", just really amped up normal senses.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:00 pm
  

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I think the juicer auto dodge is only applicable to specific vehicles that allow it. Some of the juicer uprising vehicles I believe did allow the auto dodge from the Juicer.

For big combat robots I don't care how good of response times the pilot has a 26+ foot tall robot only moves so fast.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:07 pm
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
How about instead of arguing about the rules, we decide to go with whatever sounds the most fun and start making characters?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:04 pm
  

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kaid wrote:
I think the juicer auto dodge is only applicable to specific vehicles that allow it. Some of the juicer uprising vehicles I believe did allow the auto dodge from the Juicer.

For big combat robots I don't care how good of response times the pilot has a 26+ foot tall robot only moves so fast.

well, RAW robots and PA receive the dodge bonuses of the pilot, as well as any autododge they have.
and most of the vehicles in Juicer Uprisings were conventional wheeled vehicles.. palladium's rules are a bit fuzzy on those, and not all of them get dodges at all.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:53 am
  

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I have to agree with popscythe, this is a sweet book.

It has been a long time since I have played any tabletop RPGs but I picked up NG1 at Detroit Fanfare a couple weeks ago and it definitely rekindled my love of Rifts and RPGs in general. There are a lot of cool bots and guns to be sure, but I am really impressed by the write up about Ishpeming and the NG as a corporate state and how it functions. As a player this is definitley a part of North America I have been wanted to be fleshed out in a source book for a long time!
Chuck Walton and Ben Rodriquez and all the other artists did a beautiful job with this thing, the wrap around cover is fantastic. No offense to the good folks at Palladium, but the fact that there isn't an advertizement on the back cover just made me love this thing a lot more.

In game mechanics I know how often we complain about power creep in Rifts sourcebooks, but honestly looking at NG1, a lot of the combat 'bots have comparatively low MDC for their size, which actually makes sense to me. The Northern Gun as a company doesn't have the same level of tech as the CS or Triax, or ARCHIE 3 in terms of developing armor.

For example the UAR-1 (a 20 year old CS design) in RUE has a 350 MDC main body and is 19 ft tall. The more modern CS Hellraiser in CWC has 690 MDC and is only 18 ft tall.
By comparison most of the NG bots in the new book in the same size range have main body MDCs that are more on par with the UAR-1, wich makes total sense as the NG is stated to be 12-15 years behind the CS in technological development.

So while the book has lots and lots of cool new gear, vehicles and bots, they aren't overpowerful and in the game world it makes sense why. That being said there are some nice variations and unique features to most of things in the book, which is nice to see. I am excited to see what NG2 brings.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:01 pm
  

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Yup at least for the ones in the prototype the MDC of the robots seems pretty reasonable. You have things like the gunbot at slightly over 300 MDC on the low end and things like the blocker at 570 MDC with a 300 MDC shield on the high end.

One of the CS's more clear advantages is better armor alloys they can make things smaller and more dense for greater protection for the size. NG could not match that so they tend to go big and bulky with "good enough" armor.

They pretty well fit the mold between the old URA1 level of tech and the new CS war tech and closer to the latter on the weapon side.

Really power creep complaints are mostly from a decade or so ago. Over the last 10 or so years the books have been pretty well balanced power wise small increases here and there but nothing really silly. There have been complaints about the damage listings of the vehicle weapons not scaling high enough but I think that has been a pretty concious decision to fight the mudflation pressures that happen in any RPG over time.

NG1 did a hell of a job of making some really fun robot designs that are useful and powerful without really inflating the power level of the game overall it is all pretty well in line with what the lore would point to balance wise between the NG/triax and the CS.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:26 pm
  

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Being a robots and power armor junkie, I thought I would love this book. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate it, but something does not sit right with me. I think because we have lived our lives up to this point knowing Northern Gun as being the reliable, people's manufacturer. Nothing special but reliability, availability, and price.

Now, we have solar powered energy weapons, something very unique to the Rifts setting. As cool as this is of an idea, it just doesnt fit the previous feel of Northern Gun.

I mean, technological levels does not directly correlate to how much damage your weapon can deal (MD) and how much damage your armor can absorb (MDC) for an item the same size and category. Unique identifiers and features can often boost to the overall technological levels. For example:

-Kittani: Transformable bots and super agile bots. Even in Phaseworld settings, no other manufacturer can create transformable bots save for one experimental underwater bot (Triax) and an experimental "cyclone" (Naruni). Yet, Kittani *mass produce* transformable space fighters for military use, as well as for civilian consumption. Also, they are the only manufacturer that offers auto dodge bonuses just or piloting the armors and requires no special training (Serpent PA and another one I cannot remember right now).
-Naruni: Thermo-Kinetic armor, KHEX missiles (specifically minis), variable camo armor, and personal force field tech. Their energy weapons are also some of the most powerful in the Megaverse. Having one of the most powerful hand guns in the Megaverse while maneuvering without the disadvantage of being hampered by body armor is huge. Or the ability to take half damage from plasma and kinetic attacks is again huge.
-Triax: The only human manufacturer whom can build force field technology and one of the few who can produce Glitter Boy tech in mass quantities. They also excel in AI technology.
-Free Quebec: Nothing really special, but can produce weaker Glitter Boys.
-Arkons: Energy weapons which deal double damage and armor which have a distinct advantage over standard energy weapons.
-Megaversal Legion: inertial fields...pretty cool.

Finally, we have the Coalition, who is supposed to be a higher technological level than Northern Gun, yet the weapons and equipment presented in this book are on par with anything the CS has to offer in the CWC and CS Navy books. Then, throw on top the fact that the CS has NOTHING like the above manufacturers save for some AI (which NG has as well), it really puts NG on a higher level than the CS has ever seen print when you add in the ability to harness the sun and produce mega damage blasts with it. That is a huge advantage over CS tech. Oh, and NG tech is also capable of creating Kinetic dampening armor (Merc Ops sourcebook), which is again a huge advantage over the CS. The CS really has nothing save for mutant dogs. No special protection. No additional conditional damage sources. No unique force fields, camouflage, or special mechs. Just various bots, power armors, and small arms that deal standard damage. Russian and Japanese tech can be thrown in there too.

Don't get me wrong, I love the out-of-the-box thinking of recent books when it comes to how a technological manufacturer can be more unique, fun, and exciting, but power creep as struck again, leaving folks like the CS behind again.

Still with all the gripes, its one of the best world books produced in a long time. We finally get a glimpse into the actual nation of Northern Gun, their armies, their stances, and their lifestyle. Now we just need them to get the juices flowing for Lazlo.

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I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Nov 2013
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Marines, Spaceships
-Rifts FPS PC Video Game
-Rifts Facebook game
-Updated Errata for post-2006 printings of Rifts books
-Searchable, quality PDFs/E-pubs of current Rifts titles


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:32 am
  

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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
Like the book. I really do. A few things not so much. As usual the wonky damage values continue yet again. The NG-7 Hunter does the same amount of damage as the Bigfoot yet requires only one gun. The guns on the Bigfoot imo should be doing 2D6x10 at the very least. How does a robot with more weaponry do the same amount of damage as one with a single weapon. Matthew or most likely Kevin attempt at vindication of the Behemoth. If that ugly vehicle existed imo no adventuring group would be caught dead in a machine that looks like a cross between a pregnant chicken and a box. So reading up that that their is "enough demand" to keep the design around gave me a good laugh. The Muiltibot was too strange and weird a design to be popular. Yet the Behemoth somehow is more popular. Only on Rifts Earth I suppose. In the few times I ran Rifts with my old gaming group I could not give it away. Hell they would never salvage it and blow it to pieces. And were talking about guys who if they came across the yellow brick road and it was gold would have their characters dig up and sell every brick. Made worse by plot armor as to how even evil creatures would not attack a unarmed version. Who would have thought that the most evil creatures in Rifts suddenly develop a conscience when it comes to the Behemoth. The Super-Explorer looks cooler yet not that much. A cross between a camal and a cow. I can see my group going for the EX-9. Still both too slow a vehicle. How come no one on rifts Earth has not developed a all terrien version of a tracked vehicle. Vehicles moving by leg power alone are too slow imo. So strange that no one not the CS or Triax. Or hell even the Splugorth can't develop it. Like the new weapons yet at the same time dislike that the older ones were rehashed in the book. I understand why they did it. Yet as a consumer I don't like buying any rpg product with rehash in it.

That being said the product is one I recommend it to anyone interested in getting more Rifts Books on North America. It gets a 8/10 from me.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:00 am
  

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Well, you might remember the severe lack of roads and such in Rifts earth. That and in spite of all the books having tons of gear, you're looking at the top 2% of the world that can afford it or use it. Coupled with the fact that most of the planet is post Apoc sort of setting, seas of dangerous wilderness broken only by very distant towns and or cities, of which you can't bet that anyone there can fix your tank. Heavy Tracked vehicles do ok in some terrain. In others they make it about 10 feet and stop. Forever. The logic behind the big walking robots has (As best I can tell) Always been about the increased mobility vs tracked vehicles.

And just remember, because you find something ugly, doesn't mean everyone else does. Same goes with beauty. For years people have just crow'd over Cameron Diez. I've always thought she looked like a halibut. Same thing with Jessica Simpson. These women made millions and were on 'sexiest women alive" lists for years and years but I think they look horrible.

Your group might not like a bot and you can't give it to them, but many (in the recent past) When talking about NG and the Behemoth, loved their old ones and had plenty of stories about them, and even are asking for deck plans and what not due to it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:10 am
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
Sureshot wrote:
That being said the product is one I recommend it to anyone interested in getting more Rifts Books on North America. It gets a 8/10 from me.


Woo!

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:19 am
  

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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Well, you might remember the severe lack of roads and such in Rifts earth. That and in spite of all the books having tons of gear, you're looking at the top 2% of the world that can afford it or use it. Coupled with the fact that most of the planet is post Apoc sort of setting, seas of dangerous wilderness broken only by very distant towns and or cities, of which you can't bet that anyone there can fix your tank. Heavy Tracked vehicles do ok in some terrain. In others they make it about 10 feet and stop. Forever. The logic behind the big walking robots has (As best I can tell) Always been about the increased mobility vs tracked vehicles.


I know about the lack of roads. Yet with all the new tech being introduced I just can't see why no one could make a ATV tracked vehicle. Or have Rifts Earth slowly switch over to hover technology. You make a good point about distance between towns and track vehicles. Yet the same could be said for any vehicle that is damaged. Not saying that walking robots should disappear. At the very least can't they make them move faster. I do find the whole "if the behemoth has no weapons we can't attack it it would not be honorable" to be BS imo. Why would Simivans and other evil creatures suddenly acquire a hands off policy on a certain vehilce because it has no weapons.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And just remember, because you find something ugly, doesn't mean everyone else does. Same goes with beauty. For years people have just crow'd over Cameron Diez. I've always thought she looked like a halibut. Same thing with Jessica Simpson. These women made millions and were on 'sexiest women alive" lists for years and years but I think they look horrible.


It's all about appearence. One can have the best vehicle in the world. It's still not going to sell if it looks ugly. Or worse fugly. That's the way the world goes around. I wish it were otherwise but appearence matters. The Behemoth would be gathering dust because other designers such as Naruni have better looking vehicles. Hell imo some would rather use Black Market CS vehicles first. Just as NG would be losing out to weapon designers that make cool, sleek. lightweight weapons that do the same amount of damage as NG. who wants to run around a battlefield carrying more weight than they should. As for Cameron Diaz and other women you think look horrible would you really turn down a date with them if you had a chance to date her. No I think imo you would not.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Your group might not like a bot and you can't give it to them, but many (in the recent past) When talking about NG and the Behemoth, loved their old ones and had plenty of stories about them, and even are asking for deck plans and what not due to it.


My old gaming group and when I was a player were pack rats. We would keep anything that was not nailed down. In some cases even then we would try. Besides here I have yet to see or hear from anyone who likes the Behemoth. I'm not saying they don't exist. I think they are just very rare. Maybe it's time PB stop recycling the art they use with the Behemoth. And get soem new art. Imo it's not doing the vehicle any favors.

Some D&D trivia in one of the older D&D modules. I think it was Return to Castle Greyhawk. There was a yellow brick road made out of gold. Why the designers would put that in is beyond me. You think they would have enough common sense to realize that adventuring groups would take the time to dig out every brick.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

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Last edited by Sureshot on Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:20 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
popscythe wrote:

Woo!


It's a a good book. Almost but not quite worth the wait. I will still recommend it. Too bad that NG2 will most likely be out next year.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:26 pm
  

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On the whole EX-5 debate I have always looked at them as a mobile base, a combination of a house, and lab and legs. Not to mention the fact that is is the size of a decent sized house, 80 by 20 and 60ft tall really makes it a large mobile structure. The fact that it can carry 4 hover cycles and 6 power armor suits lets it function like a walking garrison for a party of adventurers. So what if it is slow, how fast is your average walking building anyway? It is better used as a staging area for your faster vehicles, borgs, what have you, and place to come back at the end of the night instead of camping with God knows what kind of baddies lurking out there. If your group were traveling cross country in Rifts North America, would they rather have a nice place to bunk for the night, take a shower use a real toilet, and eat in a chow hall with a great view; or camp out in a cramped military vehicle, ATV or tent, with none of the amenities and which require them to eat, bathe, and relieve themselves in the open? If they are at all concerned about any of this and the next town is a long way away or unfriendly, the EX-5 makes a great home away from home.

I will agree that the fact that the EX-5 being left alone because it is known to be lightly armed and not threatening doesn't make a ton of sense. Instead I would argue the intimidation factor that most human and extra dimensional beings would experience seeing this giant, thunderous 25+ ton Behemoth lumbering across the country side If I didn't know exactly what it was, and I wasn't way up on the power level, I'd probably give it a wide berth. Likely as not if one had encountered an Ex-5 before, you would probably know it is either full of worthless refugees/explorers/scientists or an adventuring group that is armed to the teeth. Either way probably not worth the time to duke it out. If I were a bandit, I would try to steal the darn thing without combat, as it is worth millions of credits, and destroying it is counter productive.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:21 pm
  

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J_cobbers wrote:
I will agree that the fact that the EX-5 being left alone because it is known to be lightly armed and not threatening doesn't make a ton of sense.


An operator or two can take care of that for you.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:06 pm
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Well, you might remember the severe lack of roads and such in Rifts earth. That and in spite of all the books having tons of gear, you're looking at the top 2% of the world that can afford it or use it. Coupled with the fact that most of the planet is post Apoc sort of setting, seas of dangerous wilderness broken only by very distant towns and or cities, of which you can't bet that anyone there can fix your tank. Heavy Tracked vehicles do ok in some terrain. In others they make it about 10 feet and stop. Forever. The logic behind the big walking robots has (As best I can tell) Always been about the increased mobility vs tracked vehicles.


I know about the lack of roads. Yet with all the new tech being introduced I just can't see why no one could make a ATV tracked vehicle. Or have Rifts Earth slowly switch over to hover technology. You make a good point about distance between towns and track vehicles. Yet the same could be said for any vehicle that is damaged. Not saying that walking robots should disappear. At the very least can't they make them move faster. I do find the whole "if the behemoth has no weapons we can't attack it it would not be honorable" to be BS imo. Why would Simivans and other evil creatures suddenly acquire a hands off policy on a certain vehilce because it has no weapons.

First of all, Sureshot, I must respectfully say that I think you are being a little hasty in your judgments and assumptions about the product line of NG via vehicles and their array of mobility. Particularly being that NG2 is the book to contain NG vehicles, has yet to be revealed. I know for a fact that there are all sorts of vehicle types including hover and tracked in NG2. So to assume that “no one could make an ATV tracked vehicle” is a premature assessment. As to why majority of the vehicles aren’t switched to hover, well that also might be covered in NG2. They all have their pros and cons (cost, maintenance, versatility, limitations, etc.)

As to the Behemoth series “no attack policy - if the Behemoth has no weapons we can’t attack it, it would not be honorable”, IMO, you are taking a few suggestive sentences and running with them. No where in NG1 did it say nor imply that Behemoths were a hands off do not attack Explorers policy. What is clear is that the Behemoths appear to not be a significant threat to be classified as combat robot vehicles and what they are likely carrying for most common part via crew is a team of scientist, explorers, scholars, etc., who do not pose a “significant threat” as opposed to a group of well armed mercenaries, combat robots or other hostile forces. This also doesn't mean that there aren't formidable power armors and smaller combat vehicles stowed away inside a Behemoth, it is just that Behemoths themselves and most who utilize them aren't known to be a threat. The few defense weapons systems the Behemoths are armed with, aren't noteworthy enough to make them classified as combat robot vehicles, though there were some concerns with the new EX-9 but in the end, due to its low amount of weapons, slow speed and lack of armor and combat capabilities, it is still viewed as an exploration vehicle & civilian transport by most explorers and the designers.

In the wild, natural wildlife (including shy, elusive and aggressive animals) can become accustomed to biologist/observers/scientist, etc., that ride around in vehicles in these species' natural habitats and simply observe, film and study wildlife. Such varied species will play, hunt, mate and sleep in front of these observers if they grow to understand & learn that these vehicles, noises and the occupants inside of them represent no real threat or intrusion or interruption in their natural daily activities.

So I can see why the suggestion of Xiticix not really being aggressive towards a Behemoth has some validity. Now if more Behemoths are to turn up and be more of an intrusion, disruption or threat, then that would be different. I don’t see a Behemoth parking right next to a mound and not being attacked or even getting 1/8 of that close, but I can see one passing by via the safety perimeter distance and as long as it is slowly moving in a non-aggressive manner (much like a massive herbivore dinosaur) and keeping course and not intruding close to the Xiticix mounts or hive, I can see why Xiticix may not outright attack it.

The same may be likened to some Simvan tribes/riders. They simply don’t see it worth the fight to engage with something that is more like an observer and not truly an attacking threat. This is not to say that some Simvan won’t challenge or charge or attack a Behemoth or ward it off if they feel annoyed or if they feel the Behemoths get to close to their tribes and borders, but it is just an indication that the explorer series robots such as the massive slow moving, non-threatening Behemoths are not a combat oriented robot to pose a significant threat and others including some natural neighboring inhabitants have come to learn this.

However by no means is it to be taken that Behemoths are hands off. If that were the case, then they would not need any defensive weapons systems at all. Pirates, mercenaries, Simvan, Xiticix, Evil beings, thieves, etc., and other opportunistic species and invaders could easily attack one if they felt the need or desire to expend the energy to do so.



Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And just remember, because you find something ugly, doesn't mean everyone else does. Same goes with beauty. For years people have just crow'd over Cameron Diez. I've always thought she looked like a halibut. Same thing with Jessica Simpson. These women made millions and were on 'sexiest women alive" lists for years and years but I think they look horrible.


It's all about appearence. One can have the best vehicle in the world. It's still not going to sell if it looks ugly. Or worse fugly. That's the way the world goes around. I wish it were otherwise but appearence matters. The Behemoth would be gathering dust because other designers such as Naruni have better looking vehicles. Hell imo some would rather use Black Market CS vehicles first. Just as NG would be losing out to weapon designers that make cool, sleek. lightweight weapons that do the same amount of damage as NG. who wants to run around a battlefield carrying more weight than they should. As for Cameron Diaz and other women you think look horrible would you really turn down a date with them if you had a chance to date her. No I think imo you would not.

I think Pepsi Jedi answered this beautifully. Aesthetics is a matter of pure opinion and simply because you don’t like a certain design or aesthetic of that design, doesn’t mean that others won’t. This is like the issue of various dog breeds (pheno types). Some breeds appeal to others and that same breed can be disgusting or unattractive to others. Some people prefer pure breeds while others prefer crosses. Some people prefer field functionality and performance over physical conformation champion standards. It’s a matter of personal preference. So just because you personally feel a design(s) is ugly doesn’t mean everyone else agrees.

Also, “if” the vehicle fulfills a certain function, which includes a worthy form of refuge, safety and plethora of needed resources (medical, storage, mobile command & communications relay station, etc.) in a very dire, post apocalyptic and dire world setting, then the last thing most survivors benefiting from these resources are going to be concerned with, is how sleek and cool it must look to utilize a Behemoth.

If you want cool and intimidation then you pick a cool combat robot, power armor or vehicle to suit your needs, but when it comes to other necessary resources that assist your day to day survival, the Behemoths and what they have to offer begin to look very appeasing, IMHO



Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Your group might not like a bot and you can't give it to them, but many (in the recent past) When talking about NG and the Behemoth, loved their old ones and had plenty of stories about them, and even are asking for deck plans and what not due to it.


My old gaming group and when I was a player were pack rats. We would keep anything that was not nailed down. In some cases even then we would try. Besides here I have yet to see or hear from anyone who likes the Behemoth. I'm not saying they don't exist. I think they are just very rare. Maybe it's time PB stop recycling the art they use with the Behemoth. And get soem new art. Imo it's not doing the vehicle any favors.

Some D&D trivia in one of the older D&D modules. I think it was Return to Castle Greyhawk. There was a yellow brick road made out of gold. Why the designers would put that in is beyond me. You think they would have enough common sense to realize that adventuring groups would take the time to dig out every brick.


Perhaps your gaming group didn’t like Behemoth, but there are indeed those who enjoy them or want one. Poster Akashic Soldier mentioned in this thread how he and his gaming group would very much enjoy and strategically desired to obtain the new Behemoth Super –X. When I posted the illustration of the Super-X on my gallery last nite, one of the comments was “this makes me want to play RIFTS again.” So as stated above, the aesthetic is purely personal preference, but the beneficial resources that a Behemoth provides aren’t easily ignored n a Rifts earth setting. If you want cool & intimidation then one can easily pick a cool combat robot, power armor or vehicle to suit their personal needs, but when it comes to other necessary resources that assist your day to day survival and the group’s needs & survival, then the Behemoths and what they have to offer begin to look very appeasing, IMHO.

As to old art versus new, if I or another Artist had to redraw the old one, then that would have added to the chronic delay of the product that so many understandably banged the doors down for. So some times, PB has to make a call to get the product done versus seeking perfection. Trust me there was a lot more that was discussed, but at the end of the day, the books have to be completed and we have to move on.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:29 pm
  

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Only complaint(s) I have are;
1) Still, STILL absolutely no optics systems listed for he bots as "standard features" ..despite fact that both Rifts Japan and Triax have them listed for mecha & power suits. It's like North America forgot how to make normal-sized cameras but can create nano-tech cyber-eyes JUST fine. :badbad: :nh: :frust: Not a big deal for me; I have a brain but some players (and GM's) are stupid enough not to question the absence and just assume that all North Am. mecha and power armour are only using Mk I eye-ball. Kevin really has to stop copying & pasting from the first edition, first print text files.
2) We're also still running into the "Nothing can be better than the Boomgun for range and damage" wall. It's getting real old.

Those two MAJOR nits aside, I think the book is one of the better contributions made to the Rifts line up in quite some time. ESPECIALLY the non-toy material / fluff-text. I love how Ishpeming / NG is fleshed out. :ok:
So I'll give this book a solid 7.75 out of 10.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:43 pm
  

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DhAkael wrote:
Only complaint(s) I have are;
1) Still, STILL absolutely no optics systems listed for he bots as "standard features" ..despite fact that both Rifts Japan and Triax have them listed for mecha & power suits. It's like North America forgot how to make normal-sized cameras but can create nano-tech cyber-eyes JUST fine. :badbad: :nh: :frust: Not a big deal for me; I have a brain but some players (and GM's) are stupid enough not to question the absence and just assume that all North Am. mecha and power armour are only using Mk I eye-ball. Kevin really has to stop copying & pasting from the first edition, first print text files.
2) We're also still running into the "Nothing can be better than the Boomgun for range and damage" wall. It's getting real old.

Those two MAJOR nits aside, I think the book is one of the better contributions made to the Rifts line up in quite some time. ESPECIALLY the non-toy material / fluff-text. I love how Ishpeming / NG is fleshed out. :ok:
So I'll give this book a solid 7.75 out of 10.



Just pull an Iron Monger in Iron man...open the hatch and eyeball it? Seriously though..looking forward to this book soon as I can squeeze it in.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:16 pm
  

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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
Damn Premier tell me how you really feel. :D .

I do think the Behemoth could use some new art. with respect to whomever drew it it just looks ugly as hell. Sme good points. I appreciate the honesty and candor. It sfill not going to change my mind on the Behemoth. The super Behemoth on the other hand looks more like a actually exploration vehicle and cooler. Then again anything imo is better than a pregnant chicken crossed with a box. I guess with the Behemoth it came off too much as the authors trying to push the vehicle. Its a decent enough vehicle for what it does. Its still too slow. The reason why I mentioned a lack of tracked vehilces is that it seems at least for the moment that no one including NG can come up with a ATV tracked vehicle. You have so mcuh new tech being developed yet it seems at least to me that no one thinks to make a ATV. Or a prototype. Still Im hoping to be proven wrong and NG is the first one to do so.

In the ned I rather be honest about how I feel about a product. It may annoy or even anger some. Yet I make no apologies for it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:43 pm
  

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Sureshot, what about the Iron Heart Armament's tanks and APC listed in Mercs?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:46 pm
  

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Completely agree.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:57 pm
  

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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
Mack wrote:
Sureshot, what about the Iron Heart Armament's tanks and APC listed in Mercs?



Been awhile since I looked through that book. Some of my collection is boxed up. Are the IH vehicles ATV? I just think that vehicles if all kind limited to moving with legs would IMO be too slow.

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Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:17 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
I just think that vehicles if all kind limited to moving with legs would IMO be too slow.


I bet you loved the legs-bike from Black Market.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:20 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Damn Premier tell me how you really feel. :D .

I do think the Behemoth could use some new art. with respect to whomever drew it it just looks ugly as hell. Sme good points. I appreciate the honesty and candor. It sfill not going to change my mind on the Behemoth. The super Behemoth on the other hand looks more like a actually exploration vehicle and cooler. Then again anything imo is better than a pregnant chicken crossed with a box. I guess with the Behemoth it came off too much as the authors trying to push the vehicle. Its a decent enough vehicle for what it does. Its still too slow. The reason why I mentioned a lack of tracked vehilces is that it seems at least for the moment that no one including NG can come up with a ATV tracked vehicle. You have so mcuh new tech being developed yet it seems at least to me that no one thinks to make a ATV. Or a prototype. Still Im hoping to be proven wrong and NG is the first one to do so.

In the ned I rather be honest about how I feel about a product. It may annoy or even anger some. Yet I make no apologies for it.


Hey Sureshot,

Sometimes I dislike electronic communication because they are hard to convey tonality. By no means was I wanting to come off abrasive.

As to the original Behemoth art, for it to be redone would likely mean it also being re-written and designated as a variant and thus not truly fixing your core issue with the original EX-5 illustration.

I appreciate your compliment regarding the EX-9 (though you did call it a cow ;) ). It was simply a take on the EX-5 with what I felt it needed to have better stability and support for the modern day Rifts setting. It was still a design derivative from the EX-5 and I wanted to convey the similarity and foundation origins, especially with the observation deck and other similarities all the while making it more plausible in functionality.

As to the speed of these extremely large vehicles, well I disagree with your assessment on that issue, because they are not meant for combat. It’s a mobile base and command station, so you don’t need it making evasive maneuvers or shaking up the interior inhabitants and equipment, trying to evade or juking out enemy oppositions. Something as big as the Behemoths need to firmly plant and secure each step as they don’t have the speedy reaction liberty that smaller units have to catch their footing if they misstep or slip or the ground underneath gives way, etc. For such large scaled machines to consistently move at 40 mph (Ex-5)/ 45 mph (EX-9) is actually very fair, and more plausible, IMHO. I think you may want to remind yourself just how fast 45 mph per hour actually is the next time you drive, then imagine something 70 feet tall moving at that pace.

Regarding a tracked ATV or TATVs and other mobile possibilities, there are vehicle designs that have been revealed and many more unseen that will be published in NG2. Tracked vehicles have their place and preferences by some, but they also have their issues and concerns as well.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:51 am
  

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Kagashi wrote:
Being a robots and power armor junkie, I thought I would love this book. Don't get me wrong, I dont hate it, but something does not sit right with me. I think because we have lived our lives up to this point knowing Northern Gun as being the reliable, people's manufacturer. Nothing special but reliability, availability, and price.

Now, we have solar powered energy weapons, something very unique to the Rifts setting. As cool as this is of an idea, it just doesnt fit the previous feel of Northern Gun.

I mean, technological levels does not directly correlate to how much damage your weapon can deal (MD) and how much damage your armor can absorb (MDC) for an item the same size and category. Unique identifiers and features can often boost to the overall technological levels. For example:

-Kittani: Transformable bots and super agile bots. Even in Phaseworld settings, no other manufacturer can create transformable bots save for one experimental underwater bot (Triax) and an experimental "cyclone" (Naruni). Yet, Kittani *mass produce* transformable space fighters for military use, as well as for civilian consumption. Also, they are the only manufacturer that offers auto dodge bonuses just or piloting the armors and requires no special training (Serpent PA and another one I cannot remember right now).
-Naruni: Thermo-Kinetic armor, KHEX missiles (specifically minis), variable camo armor, and personal force field tech. Their energy weapons are also some of the most powerful in the Megaverse. Having one of the most powerful hand guns in the Megaverse while maneuvering without the disadvantage of being hampered by body armor is huge. Or the ability to take half damage from plasma and kinetic attacks is again huge.
-Triax: The only human manufacturer whom can build force field technology and one of the few who can produce Glitter Boy tech in mass quantities. They also excel in AI technology.
-Free Quebec: Nothing really special, but can produce weaker Glitter Boys.
-Arkons: Energy weapons which deal double damage and armor which have a distinct advantage over standard energy weapons.
-Megaversal Legion: inertial fields...pretty cool.

Finally, we have the Coalition, who is supposed to be a higher technological level than Northern Gun, yet the weapons and equipment presented in this book are on par with anything the CS has to offer in the CWC and CS Navy books. Then, throw on top the fact that the CS has NOTHING like the above manufacturers save for some AI (which NG has as well), it really puts NG on a higher level than the CS has ever seen print when you add in the ability to harness the sun and produce mega damage blasts with it. That is a huge advantage over CS tech. Oh, and NG tech is also capable of creating Kinetic dampening armor (Merc Ops sourcebook), which is again a huge advantage over the CS. The CS really has nothing save for mutant dogs. No special protection. No additional conditional damage sources. No unique force fields, camouflage, or special mechs. Just various bots, power armors, and small arms that deal standard damage. Russian and Japanese tech can be thrown in there too.

Don't get me wrong, I love the out-of-the-box thinking of recent books when it comes to how a technological manufacturer can be more unique, fun, and exciting, but power creep as struck again, leaving folks like the CS behind again.

Still with all the gripes, its one of the best world books produced in a long time. We finally get a glimpse into the actual nation of Northern Gun, their armies, their stances, and their lifestyle. Now we just need them to get the juices flowing for Lazlo.



The strength of the CS tech is shown if you look at the raw MDC of the main bodies of the front line combatants like the skull smasher and the super samas. The skull smasher about the same size as the blocker has 990 MDC as opposed to 570 for the blocker and it is capable of going 90 MPH where as most of the big NG units go around 60 for their top speed. Most of the CS robot vehicles are quite a lot faster than the comparable NG bots. The weapon tech has always been pretty close between NG and CS it was the one area the CS did not have any real advantage.

The bigger overall advantage of the CS's tech is probably in the power armor category especially the flying units. This is where the higher tech lighter armor comes in to the most noticeable effect. You have the red hawk with like 180 ish MDC and you have the smiling jack which is faster and has 250 MDC or the super samas with 460ish MDC main body and is faster than the red hawk as well. The Super samas has durability that is pretty close to 30 foot tall NG combat robots.

When looking at naruni and kittani armor you are looking at 3G level tech about 100+ years advanced over anything on rifts earth.

Looking at triax they pretty much have a similiar lead on the CS as the CS does on the NG overall due to having had unbroken access to their technology from the golden age.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:09 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Like the book. I really do. A few things not so much. As usual the wonky damage values continue yet again. The NG-7 Hunter does the same amount of damage as the Bigfoot yet requires only one gun. The guns on the Bigfoot imo should be doing 2D6x10 at the very least. How does a robot with more weaponry do the same amount of damage as one with a single weapon. Matthew or most likely Kevin attempt at vindication of the Behemoth. If that ugly vehicle existed imo no adventuring group would be caught dead in a machine that looks like a cross between a pregnant chicken and a box. So reading up that that their is "enough demand" to keep the design around gave me a good laugh. The Muiltibot was too strange and weird a design to be popular. Yet the Behemoth somehow is more popular. Only on Rifts Earth I suppose. In the few times I ran Rifts with my old gaming group I could not give it away. Hell they would never salvage it and blow it to pieces. And were talking about guys who if they came across the yellow brick road and it was gold would have their characters dig up and sell every brick. Made worse by plot armor as to how even evil creatures would not attack a unarmed version. Who would have thought that the most evil creatures in Rifts suddenly develop a conscience when it comes to the Behemoth. The Super-Explorer looks cooler yet not that much. A cross between a camal and a cow. I can see my group going for the EX-9. Still both too slow a vehicle. How come no one on rifts Earth has not developed a all terrien version of a tracked vehicle. Vehicles moving by leg power alone are too slow imo. So strange that no one not the CS or Triax. Or hell even the Splugorth can't develop it. Like the new weapons yet at the same time dislike that the older ones were rehashed in the book. I understand why they did it. Yet as a consumer I don't like buying any rpg product with rehash in it.

That being said the product is one I recommend it to anyone interested in getting more Rifts Books on North America. It gets a 8/10 from me.



Behemoth is an odd vehicle its not a main combat robot its best usage is as a mobile base. Its not super fast but it can hold a LOT of people with rooming/bunking/sanitary facilities in a well protected body. The super behemoth does this even better. You have a nice mobile base that has good protected hangers where you can repair/reequip deploy power armor/vehicles from. A reasonable hospital facility and bunking/dining for a whole merc company. I am pretty sure for anybody who has spent a lot of time in tents in ascrakistan the concept of having a nice air conditioned heavily armored area for you to sleep away from all the bugs and unfriendly critters of the night would appeal to them. I find the more walker look of the super behemoth more sensible than the previous design. A two legged walker just seemed way to vulnerable holding up something of that size.

The whole keeping it with minimal arms was never really to protect it from evil creatures it was to help keep the CS and other city states from being freaked out by these giant robots. Everybody knows the behemoth is lightly armed at best so when a CS patrol sees this huge thing plodding through the trees it is less likely to shoot first before asking questions. Even for merc companies there is something to be said for having a mobile base that people recognize as not being much of a combat threat so if a fight does break out most of the damage will be directed to the more dangerous adversaries and not so much wasting time/ammo killing the behemoth.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:16 am
  

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DhAkael wrote:
Only complaint(s) I have are;
1) Still, STILL absolutely no optics systems listed for he bots as "standard features" ..despite fact that both Rifts Japan and Triax have them listed for mecha & power suits. It's like North America forgot how to make normal-sized cameras but can create nano-tech cyber-eyes JUST fine. :badbad: :nh: :frust: Not a big deal for me; I have a brain but some players (and GM's) are stupid enough not to question the absence and just assume that all North Am. mecha and power armour are only using Mk I eye-ball. Kevin really has to stop copying & pasting from the first edition, first print text files.
2) We're also still running into the "Nothing can be better than the Boomgun for range and damage" wall. It's getting real old.

Those two MAJOR nits aside, I think the book is one of the better contributions made to the Rifts line up in quite some time. ESPECIALLY the non-toy material / fluff-text. I love how Ishpeming / NG is fleshed out. :ok:
So I'll give this book a solid 7.75 out of 10.


I also found it interesting that the improved optics are not standard on the robot vehicles. That said many of the bot designs DO have improved optic systems. I think this potentially is one of the areas NG may not be as good with either that or given they sell to mercs maybe improved optics are one of those popular after market upsells to milk a bit extra cash out of the customers.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:32 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Mack wrote:
Sureshot, what about the Iron Heart Armament's tanks and APC listed in Mercs?



Been awhile since I looked through that book. Some of my collection is boxed up. Are the IH vehicles ATV? I just think that vehicles if all kind limited to moving with legs would IMO be too slow.



One thing I think to note is each mobility type has its advantages and its disadvantages.

Wheeled vehicles capable of higher speeds/less damaging to any roads/typically lighter and more agile.
Downside wheels even MDC ones tend to be very vulnerable, traction tends to be worse than tracked vehicles and due to lack of surface area more prone to getting bogged down not useful in mountains/steep hills/forests.

Tracked vehicles. High traction large surface area of movement surface means they tend to be good for holding up larger heavier vehicles up over very broken terrain. Less prone to getting bogged down and better at extracting themselves if they do get stuck. Due to the extra traction tracked vehicles tend to be better capable of plowing through light forests if needed.

Downside slower less agile and rips the hell out of roads. Good for tanks/combat vehicles/construction equipment. Best usage is on open fields/plains but tanks are reasonably capable of most terrains but swamps/mountains.


Legged vehicles.

Speed tends to be slower than wheeled vehicles but overall similiar or faster than tracked vehicles. Widest range of terrain types accessible from deep forests to mountains and even swamps to an extant depending how deep the muck may be.

Downside these tend to be very pricey compared to tracked/wheeled vehicles as you are looking at fairly intensive robotics involved. They tend to be very tall which can be a disadvantage as most opponents are going to see you coming well before they would see a normal truck/tank/apc.


Hover vehicles

Fastest of the vehicle types by far and largely ignores terrain other than the most steep of cliffs/mountains. Some can hover over water and swamps others cannot so that varies a bit between hover vehicles likely all dependent on the weight of the vehicle in question.

Downside in rifts canada/russia there are mentions of hover bike systems freezing up pretty bad in arctic conditions and needing special designs and cold weather adapted hover systems. So you can use hover systems in the arctic but make sure its one designed for it. In the new vampire source book it mentions traveling across the deserts with various types of vehicles. Hover vehicles need a great deal of maintenance when traveling across deserts or really dusty environments to prevent the engines from clogging/fouling. Similiar in a lot of ways to modern helicopters really. Hover systems tend to also be much more expensive than wheeled/tracked vehicles and less so than legged.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:03 pm
  

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Knight

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Posts: 4866
kaid wrote:
DhAkael wrote:
Only complaint(s) I have are;
1) Still, STILL absolutely no optics systems listed for he bots as "standard features" ..despite fact that both Rifts Japan and Triax have them listed for mecha & power suits. It's like North America forgot how to make normal-sized cameras but can create nano-tech cyber-eyes JUST fine. :badbad: :nh: :frust: Not a big deal for me; I have a brain but some players (and GM's) are stupid enough not to question the absence and just assume that all North Am. mecha and power armour are only using Mk I eye-ball. Kevin really has to stop copying & pasting from the first edition, first print text files.
2) We're also still running into the "Nothing can be better than the Boomgun for range and damage" wall. It's getting real old.

Those two MAJOR nits aside, I think the book is one of the better contributions made to the Rifts line up in quite some time. ESPECIALLY the non-toy material / fluff-text. I love how Ishpeming / NG is fleshed out. :ok:
So I'll give this book a solid 7.75 out of 10.


I also found it interesting that the improved optics are not standard on the robot vehicles. That said many of the bot designs DO have improved optic systems. I think this potentially is one of the areas NG may not be as good with either that or given they sell to mercs maybe improved optics are one of those popular after market upsells to milk a bit extra cash out of the customers.

Okay...now in-context THAT actually makes sense. :ok:
I don't GM that way, but yeah... *nods* it does give a plausible explanation either way ;)

_________________
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are we dreaming there are better days to come?
When will the banners and the victory parades
celebrate the day a better world was won?
On the day, the storm has just begun, I will still hope
there are better days to come."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:19 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
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Comment: Gigantes senor..I don't need no stinking Gigantes
Premier wrote:
Hey Sureshot,
Sometimes I dislike electronic communication because they are hard to convey tonality. By no means was I wanting to come off abrasive.


I did not take offensive. Hence the grin emoticon. You defended a design you like and were honest about it. As I was honest about my feelings about the EX-5.

Premier wrote:
As to the original Behemoth art, for it to be redone would likely mean it also being re-written and designated as a variant and thus not truly fixing your core issue with the original EX-5 illustration.


I understand. Maybe a new illustration in a Rifter. Or if it can be added a new look for the EX-5 that was rejected because it would be a loss in sales. A prototype drawing that was not used. Something that could be added to the NG 2 book at the back.

Premier wrote:
I appreciate your compliment regarding the EX-9 (though you did call it a cow ;) ). It was simply a take on the EX-5 with what I felt it needed to have better stability and support for the modern day Rifts setting. It was still a design derivative from the EX-5 and I wanted to convey the similarity and foundation origins, especially with the observation deck and other similarities all the while making it more plausible in functionality.


I called it a mix between a cow and a camal :-D . Yet I still like it. Imo it feels and reads like a actual exploration vehicle. I could see my group or at least myself wanting to use it in a Rifts game.

Premier wrote:
As to the speed of these extremely large vehicles, well I disagree with your assessment on that issue, because they are not meant for combat. It’s a mobile base and command station, so you don’t need it making evasive maneuvers or shaking up the interior inhabitants and equipment, trying to evade or juking out enemy oppositions. Something as big as the Behemoths need to firmly plant and secure each step as they don’t have the speedy reaction liberty that smaller units have to catch their footing if they misstep or slip or the ground underneath gives way, etc. For such large scaled machines to consistently move at 40 mph (Ex-5)/ 45 mph (EX-9) is actually very fair, and more plausible, IMHO. I think you may want to remind yourself just how fast 45 mph per hour actually is the next time you drive, then imagine something 70 feet tall moving at that pace.


My issue with the speed was never about using the either version of the EX for combat. Just that going from place to place or escaping from a enemy. It feels slow to me. Yet you make a good point about it being enough for the job it needs to do.

Premier wrote:

Regarding a tracked ATV or TATVs and other mobile possibilities, there are vehicle designs that have been revealed and many more unseen that will be published in NG2. Tracked vehicles have their place and preferences by some, but they also have their issues and concerns as well.


I look forward to seeing what NG 2 has in store. As I am enjoying NG 1

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:12 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Sureshot wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Well, you might remember the severe lack of roads and such in Rifts earth. That and in spite of all the books having tons of gear, you're looking at the top 2% of the world that can afford it or use it. Coupled with the fact that most of the planet is post Apoc sort of setting, seas of dangerous wilderness broken only by very distant towns and or cities, of which you can't bet that anyone there can fix your tank. Heavy Tracked vehicles do ok in some terrain. In others they make it about 10 feet and stop. Forever. The logic behind the big walking robots has (As best I can tell) Always been about the increased mobility vs tracked vehicles.


I know about the lack of roads. Yet with all the new tech being introduced I just can't see why no one could make a ATV tracked vehicle.


There are a few. if memory serves the Bulldog, in NG1 itself has a tracked option if you don't feel like walking and terrain allows.

Sureshot wrote:
Or have Rifts Earth slowly switch over to hover technology.


Well they are. There's alot of hover stuff out there. NG sells alot of it, itself. The thing with Hover is that it has it's limitations too. It's not often cited but if you look you can find snippits, such things as being loud as hell and alerting everything with in a mile or two with the whine of the hover engines and such. It's still stated many times that hover chiles are better for cross country and what not due to not getting bogged down. If you look. Most of them have max hight that would just let you fly over tree tops or at least way off the ground. Only a few of the heavier bigger things are limited to ground level.

Sureshot wrote:


You make a good point about distance between towns and track vehicles. Yet the same could be said for any vehicle that is damaged. Not saying that walking robots should disappear. At the very least can't they make them move faster. I do find the whole "if the behemoth has no weapons we can't attack it it would not be honorable" to be BS imo. Why would Simivans and other evil creatures suddenly acquire a hands off policy on a certain vehilce because it has no weapons.


Honestly I don't remember seeing that, so I can't really comment on it. It may have been meant more along the lines of "That thing's huge, lets not **** it off" but I don't remember the text to really say.

If it IS just a 'It's not armed so lets give it a pass" that IS moronic. lol

Sureshot wrote:


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And just remember, because you find something ugly, doesn't mean everyone else does. Same goes with beauty. For years people have just crow'd over Cameron Diez. I've always thought she looked like a halibut. Same thing with Jessica Simpson. These women made millions and were on 'sexiest women alive" lists for years and years but I think they look horrible.


It's all about appearence. One can have the best vehicle in the world. It's still not going to sell if it looks ugly. Or worse fugly.


But what's fugly to you, might be beautiful to others. Also remember form and function can beat out appearance. Sure you might find it ugly, but if it's the only thing on the market that fills _____ Void, that's what you're gong to buy. For a long time the Behemoth was exactly that. It was the only thing in the rifts books that would fit that nitch, unless you stole a Mark V apc. Where in every CS unit and CS allied force would obliterate you on sight.

Guys dont' buy mini vans because they look sexy or hot. We end up buying mini vans because we have families and wives that want/need them, for the space and ease of use. For the most part they're pretty ugly. Roughly dollop shaped cars, nothing sexy about them at all. Yet you see them all over the place because they drive like cars, and they fit a TON OF CRAP. That crap being your family or groceries or what ever.

I have a mini van.... *twitch* I drive it. Because it fits the family and all our crap and has room. I'd much rather have a Dodge Challenger... but I have the mini van. I DO have Zombie Response Team vinals on it. But yes.. it's a mini van. I imagine that the behemoth is the same thing. Might look like a mechano chicken, but it fits the bill of what's needed and WORKS.

Sureshot wrote:
That's the way the world goes around. I wish it were otherwise but appearence matters. The Behemoth would be gathering dust because other designers such as Naruni have better looking vehicles.


1) Naruni vehicles would cost you three times as much. 2) They'd also get an airstrike called in on you if you were caught in one that big, in North America. The CS has a destroy/kill on sight order out on them, 3) the Naurni barely have a presence on rifts earth, so if you got one and it broke down, parts are not found at the Auto Zone. They're quite literally on another planet or dimension. You may be able to find one of their roving salespeople. One of the few that are left, or their one showroom in Merc town, but if you're not in merctown, you're pretty screwed. The Black Market is making their own stuff now so they're not going to line up to sell you alien gear.

But assuming just another general seller and not the Naurni, you run into the problem that there's very few vechiles that fit that nitch in the rifts books that don't belong to a formal military. There are a few smallish APCs but not very many big ones.

Lack of options, you buy the ugly one.

Sureshot wrote:

Hell imo some would rather use Black Market CS vehicles first.


I'm sure some do, but many weigh the danger of getting vaporized by an army of millions of none too pleasent skull adorned warriors vs vehicle ascetics. lol. If I can drive an ugly car and not get blown up, or drive a cool looking one and always have to worry about death quite literally descending from the sky to rain hellfire and plasma on me from above.. it's an easy choice. I drive the ugly one.

Sureshot wrote:

Just as NG would be losing out to weapon designers that make cool, sleek. lightweight weapons that do the same amount of damage as NG. who wants to run around a battlefield carrying more weight than they should.


As a gun owner I can answer this one in two parts. 1) There ------is-------- brand loyalty in the gun world. HUGE HUGE HUUUUUGE Brand Loyalty. In a big way. Some people love glocks. Some people would rather poop in their own hand and fling it, than use a Glock. Same for Colt, S&W, Springfield, HK. you like what you like. Heavy or light. I use a Springfield XDM for my pistol. I love it. I've tried others from a dozen different companies. I prefer my Springfield. If you go on gun websites, they make Palladium squabbles look like two kittens trying to drink the same milk. They will RAAAAGE on one another over which guns are better/best, when the actual, testable, technical differences are enormously minute. Whooo they go OFF.
2) You want the weapon that holds up in combat. Having a light weight plastic gun that weighs half as much, but gets jammed up, or breaks in the field is very much NOT worth the tradeoff. The heavy hunk of steel that works if you drop it, pee on it, run it over with a jeep, bury it in the mud, dig it up and throw it in a creek, pick it up, knock the mud out of the barrel and it shoots, is the one you want in battle. NG, by all accounts fits that bill. yeah they're heavier, but they do all that stuff. Wilks laser weapons for example, are sleek and light, but if you damage them the lenses/inturnals get off and they don't work. They're highly precise works of art, and do their one thing very well, but it's different. You don't want the work of art in the field. You want the gun that you can choke up on an crack a Dbee in the face with if you have to, and one that doesn't need 2 hours of cleaning/matience a day to keep working. You want the one you can poop on for a week, rinse it off with pee and fight a war with. NG is that gun. yeah it's heavier, but you get reliability that just won't quit.

Sureshot wrote:

As for Cameron Diaz and other women you think look horrible would you really turn down a date with them if you had a chance to date her. No I think imo you would not.


1) I'm married, but 2) You'd be wrong. If I ddon't find someone attractive, I just don't find them attractive. I really do find Cameron Diaz to look like a fish. I wouldn't be attracted to her at all. Nor Jessica Simpson. Beyonce, etc.

Some people I'd surely date, that haven't made millions on their looks. Personal preference is personal preference. You honestly can't sit there and go "You think they look horrible, but alot of people thinks they're pretty so you'd date um" No... not really. lol

Sureshot wrote:


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Your group might not like a bot and you can't give it to them, but many (in the recent past) When talking about NG and the Behemoth, loved their old ones and had plenty of stories about them, and even are asking for deck plans and what not due to it.


My old gaming group and when I was a player were pack rats. We would keep anything that was not nailed down. In some cases even then we would try. Besides here I have yet to see or hear from anyone who likes the Behemoth. I'm not saying they don't exist. I think they are just very rare. Maybe it's time PB stop recycling the art they use with the Behemoth. And get soem new art. Imo it's not doing the vehicle any favors.


You should check the other NG threads. I don't remember the exact one, There were 20 or 30 leading up to the release, but it came up more than once, how many people loved the thing and were just HYPED to be getting a bigger and better one. These wern't distant "Back years in the forums" thing, it was in the past few months.

Sureshot wrote:

Some D&D trivia in one of the older D&D modules. I think it was Return to Castle Greyhawk. There was a yellow brick road made out of gold. Why the designers would put that in is beyond me. You think they would have enough common sense to realize that adventuring groups would take the time to dig out every brick.


That's when you enchant/curse um. *nods with a grin*

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:16 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:23 pm
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Also when looking at the speed of something like the behemoth 45 does not feel super fast when driving your car on nice paved roads but try doing that off road and its a different story altogether.

Its not going to be outrunning any mechs but its much faster than horses or other riding animals and it can maintain the pace day after day after day over pretty much any terrain as its big enough to simply plow through anything it cannot simply step over.

Edit for a real world example of a heavy war vehicles offroad speed as a comparison the Current M1A1 has an off road speed listed as 30mph and about 42MPH ON road speed. It does not sound fast compared to what we drive every day on the highway but in reality the speed on those mechs is pretty respectable for anything that size.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:45 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:03 am
Posts: 199
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Kagashi wrote:
Now, we have solar powered energy weapons, something very unique to the Rifts setting. As cool as this is of an idea, it just doesnt fit the previous feel of Northern Gun.


I don't really have a problem with this. E-clips are really nothing more than fancy rechargeable batteries. I've always seen NG as more of the Ruger or Colt of the Rifts setting. The one that people go to because they are less expensive, readily available, and very reliable for their price. And they aren't as ugly as Chipwell... ;)

Kagashi wrote:
I mean, technological levels does not directly correlate to how much damage your weapon can deal (MD) and how much damage your armor can absorb (MDC) for an item the same size and category. Unique identifiers and features can often boost to the overall technological levels. For example:

-Kittani: Transformable bots and super agile bots. Even in Phaseworld settings, no other manufacturer can create transformable bots save for one experimental underwater bot (Triax) and an experimental "cyclone" (Naruni). Yet, Kittani *mass produce* transformable space fighters for military use, as well as for civilian consumption. Also, they are the only manufacturer that offers auto dodge bonuses just or piloting the armors and requires no special training (Serpent PA and another one I cannot remember right now).
-Naruni: Thermo-Kinetic armor, KHEX missiles (specifically minis), variable camo armor, and personal force field tech. Their energy weapons are also some of the most powerful in the Megaverse. Having one of the most powerful hand guns in the Megaverse while maneuvering without the disadvantage of being hampered by body armor is huge. Or the ability to take half damage from plasma and kinetic attacks is again huge.
-Triax: The only human manufacturer whom can build force field technology and one of the few who can produce Glitter Boy tech in mass quantities. They also excel in AI technology.
-Free Quebec: Nothing really special, but can produce weaker Glitter Boys.
-Arkons: Energy weapons which deal double damage and armor which have a distinct advantage over standard energy weapons.
-Megaversal Legion: inertial fields...pretty cool.

Finally, we have the Coalition, who is supposed to be a higher technological level than Northern Gun, yet the weapons and equipment presented in this book are on par with anything the CS has to offer in the CWC and CS Navy books. Then, throw on top the fact that the CS has NOTHING like the above manufacturers save for some AI (which NG has as well), it really puts NG on a higher level than the CS has ever seen print when you add in the ability to harness the sun and produce mega damage blasts with it. That is a huge advantage over CS tech. Oh, and NG tech is also capable of creating Kinetic dampening armor (Merc Ops sourcebook), which is again a huge advantage over the CS. The CS really has nothing save for mutant dogs. No special protection. No additional conditional damage sources. No unique force fields, camouflage, or special mechs. Just various bots, power armors, and small arms that deal standard damage. Russian and Japanese tech can be thrown in there too.


I think you're missing the point of the CS technology. The CS isn't really about specializing in any one technology over any others, they are all about having the right tool for whatever job they run across. Run into a new DB that appears to be laser proof? Well, switch to plasma, and see how it likes that! Plasma Proof? Try Rail Guns. Then there's always the large quantity of Missiles the bots carry... If the CS did specialize in one technology over the others, I'd have to call it the Rail Gun. Rail Guns are the primary weapon for more power armors and robots than any other weapon.

Kagashi wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the out-of-the-box thinking of recent books when it comes to how a technological manufacturer can be more unique, fun, and exciting, but power creep as struck again, leaving folks like the CS behind again.

Still with all the gripes, its one of the best world books produced in a long time. We finally get a glimpse into the actual nation of Northern Gun, their armies, their stances, and their lifestyle. Now we just need them to get the juices flowing for Lazlo.


I'm sorry, I really don't see the power creep you're complaining about, not that power creep is bad or unwarranted. A Weapons Manufacturer is going to put out improved products regularly, or their competitors will and when that happens, they will get left behind and begin loosing customers. It may be true that on the "Civilian Market" their only real competitors are Wilks and Bandito, and Wilks is really only interested in Laser technology, and Bandito is more EBA and power armor focused, but bandito (the black market) does make knock-offs of other manufacturer's weapons. So basically, as Time moves on, weapons will deal more damage, armor will stop more damage, vehicles/power armor/etc will get faster even with their heavier armor and better weapons... I just don't really see that having happened really with the NG1 book. It feels to me to be more of a fleshing out of their 101PA product catalog than any real improvement in technology. :-|

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If trained people had the failure rates presented in RIFTS, our world would be a flaming wreck. - Eashamahel


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:16 pm
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Like the book. I really do. A few things not so much. As usual the wonky damage values continue yet again. The NG-7 Hunter does the same amount of damage as the Bigfoot yet requires only one gun. The guns on the Bigfoot imo should be doing 2D6x10 at the very least. How does a robot with more weaponry do the same amount of damage as one with a single weapon. Matthew or most likely Kevin attempt at vindication of the Behemoth. If that ugly vehicle existed imo no adventuring group would be caught dead in a machine that looks like a cross between a pregnant chicken and a box. So reading up that that their is "enough demand" to keep the design around gave me a good laugh. The Muiltibot was too strange and weird a design to be popular. Yet the Behemoth somehow is more popular. Only on Rifts Earth I suppose. In the few times I ran Rifts with my old gaming group I could not give it away. Hell they would never salvage it and blow it to pieces. And were talking about guys who if they came across the yellow brick road and it was gold would have their characters dig up and sell every brick. Made worse by plot armor as to how even evil creatures would not attack a unarmed version. Who would have thought that the most evil creatures in Rifts suddenly develop a conscience when it comes to the Behemoth. The Super-Explorer looks cooler yet not that much. A cross between a camal and a cow. I can see my group going for the EX-9. Still both too slow a vehicle. How come no one on rifts Earth has not developed a all terrien version of a tracked vehicle. Vehicles moving by leg power alone are too slow imo. So strange that no one not the CS or Triax. Or hell even the Splugorth can't develop it. Like the new weapons yet at the same time dislike that the older ones were rehashed in the book. I understand why they did it. Yet as a consumer I don't like buying any rpg product with rehash in it.

That being said the product is one I recommend it to anyone interested in getting more Rifts Books on North America. It gets a 8/10 from me.



Um, any game I play, I make sure I play a character who gets to pick up something like the Explorer. Well, it doesn't have to be the Explorer... The Triax XM-250 Hover Hospital is a better platform for most adventuring parties, even if the mounted lasers are a bit on the weak side, they do get good range against most other weapon systems on Rifts Earth. Not a Fixer, you're an Operator? Swap out the medical equipment for mechanical repair tool kits and the like. Cyber-Doc? Swap some of the medical gear out for cybernetic and robotics tool kits. You can basically do the same thing with the EX-5 except you loose speed and hover capability, well, and the built in weapons. I will also point out, the last time we saw the EX-5 Behemoth Explorer printed, it was produced by Titan Robotics (aka: Archie).

Why? Because there is no MDC camping gear or portable shelters to sleep in at night when away from towns, and I'd like my character to actually survive his first encounter with the wilderness, and you have to sleep some time, and you can't do that in body armor. You might be able to sleep in the cockpit of your giant robot, if it's big enough, but given the drawings, I'd have to say most aren't really all that comfortable, meaning you're likely to not get much rest, so you're always tired. No Thanks. I don't care that it's not "Pretty," I'm usually playing a psi-tech, or Operator, or Neo-Human/mind melter anyway, so I'll smooth out the lines with some MD-Bondo and give it a nice paint job, and improve the vehicle's PB by 5 points. "No, we aren't paint it Red. No, Black isn't acceptable either. It's going to be green and brown and other natural colors so that it blends in with terrain better." I prefer the Hover Hospital, but I'll take the EX5 if I can get one. As other's have said, it's a mobile base of operations, and it can carry a couple hover bikes and power armors for actual combat, and it has enough MDC and can be fitted with enough weapons to allow those combat assets time to deploy. Non-combat characters do like them, for the reasons that were given in the text and other places in this thread.

Anyway, I do hope that there will be more vehicles in NG2 when it comes out that support the theory that everyone's gotta sleep sometime, even if it's just a Rifts take on the "Motorhome." A few more options are always welcome! :)

What I don't get is why the artists seem to love putting guns in the robot's crotches. I mean, they really don't need to be so
phallic, do they? :oops:

_________________

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If trained people had the failure rates presented in RIFTS, our world would be a flaming wreck. - Eashamahel


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:31 am
  

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torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
Now, we have solar powered energy weapons, something very unique to the Rifts setting. As cool as this is of an idea, it just doesnt fit the previous feel of Northern Gun.


I don't really have a problem with this. E-clips are really nothing more than fancy rechargeable batteries. I've always seen NG as more of the Ruger or Colt of the Rifts setting. The one that people go to because they are less expensive, readily available, and very reliable for their price. And they aren't as ugly as Chipwell... ;)


Exactly, so why doesn't the CS have it as well? Or the more advanced groups, say Triax, Kittani, Naruni...

torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
I mean, technological levels does not directly correlate to how much damage your weapon can deal (MD) and how much damage your armor can absorb (MDC) for an item the same size and category. Unique identifiers and features can often boost to the overall technological levels. For example:
<snip>


I think you're missing the point of the CS technology. The CS isn't really about specializing in any one technology over any others, they are all about having the right tool for whatever job they run across. Run into a new DB that appears to be laser proof? Well, switch to plasma, and see how it likes that! Plasma Proof? Try Rail Guns. Then there's always the large quantity of Missiles the bots carry... If the CS did specialize in one technology over the others, I'd have to call it the Rail Gun. Rail Guns are the primary weapon for more power armors and robots than any other weapon.


And Northern Gun doesn't have this ability as well? Their MDC values, damage values, weapon selection, and different types of weapons are on par with one another. The only difference is the CS does not have solar power, yet they are supposed to be a higher tech level.

torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the out-of-the-box thinking of recent books when it comes to how a technological manufacturer can be more unique, fun, and exciting, but power creep as struck again, leaving folks like the CS behind again.

Still with all the gripes, its one of the best world books produced in a long time. We finally get a glimpse into the actual nation of Northern Gun, their armies, their stances, and their lifestyle. Now we just need them to get the juices flowing for Lazlo.


I'm sorry, I really don't see the power creep you're complaining about, not that power creep is bad or unwarranted. A Weapons Manufacturer is going to put out improved products regularly, or their competitors will and when that happens, they will get left behind and begin loosing customers. It may be true that on the "Civilian Market" their only real competitors are Wilks and Bandito, and Wilks is really only interested in Laser technology, and Bandito is more EBA and power armor focused, but bandito (the black market) does make knock-offs of other manufacturer's weapons. So basically, as Time moves on, weapons will deal more damage, armor will stop more damage, vehicles/power armor/etc will get faster even with their heavier armor and better weapons... I just don't really see that having happened really with the NG1 book. It feels to me to be more of a fleshing out of their 101PA product catalog than any real improvement in technology. :-|


Its not about having more MDC from the last catalog (as described in my previous post). The Power Creep is in the form of the solar power unique ability that no other tech group on Earth has, when NG is supposed to be a lower level of tech than most other major manufacturers. Im not saying that NG having solar power isn't a good idea, or that it shouldn't be in the book. Im saying it is such a simple tech that those whom are more powerful than NG should have it as well. But when those books were written, PB had not thought of that idea yet, thus the Power Creep.

Heck, solar powered weapons in possession of CS troops would actually change my mind somewhat about the outcome of the SoT. If the CS had the ability to "reload" in a war of attrition just as the mages could with their PPE for free, it would have made a 4 year war more believable when troops didn't have to be resupplied to the front by millions and millions of charged eclips when all mages had to do was get some shut eye for the next days fighting. This technology, as simple as it is, really could make or break a prolonged engagement. Yet, the mighty CS does not even understand how to harness the power of the sun. Neither does Triax, Naruni, or Kittani.

_________________
I want to see from Palladium:
Updated Nov 2013
-Rifts: Dark Woods/Deep South, Space 110 PA, Scandinavia
-Mechanoids: Space (MDC)
-Robotech: Marines, Spaceships
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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:35 am
  

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solar power tech is so primitive and simple it was probably overlooked. Northern Gun has a different outlook on their weapons development then the CS or Triax both of whom have established infrastructures and extensive investments in nuclear power tech. NG clients by comparison don't always have a reliable infrastructure. On top of that this wouldn't be the first time that something 'obvious' in hindsight caught more then a few off guard.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:17 am
  

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With so much equipment with nuclear reactors I always assumed pretty much all CS APC have eclip recharging facilities inside them so recharging in the field while a bit of an annoyance is not overall that hard for the CS to do. You basically have runners constantly delivering fresh clips and running spent ones back to be recharged hell you can even get a skelebot to do this and they can carry more and run faster.

I think the CS could make the solar powered ones but for their military forces its not really that needed. Where those kinds of weapons are most useful are NG customers. People who are going alone or in small groups living in the back of beyond without any access to resupply or easy eclip recharging stations. This kind of person could really use a weapon that can recharge itself via the sunlight.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:43 am
  

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Comment: Mecha-sized flamethrowers, dudes! *woooooosh* :heart:
Oh Joey Ramone, your mother is without her e-clip charger again. It's a funny old world.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:44 pm
  

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torjones wrote:

Um, any game I play, I make sure I play a character who gets to pick up something like the Explorer.

Why? Because there is no MDC camping gear or portable shelters to sleep in at night when away from towns, and I'd like my character to actually survive his first encounter with the wilderness, and you have to sleep some time, and you can't do that in body armor. You might be able to sleep in the cockpit of your giant robot, if it's big enough, but given the drawings, I'd have to say most aren't really all that comfortable, meaning you're likely to not get much rest, so you're always tired. No Thanks. I don't care that it's not "Pretty," I'm usually playing a psi-tech, or Operator, or Neo-Human/mind melter anyway, so I'll smooth out the lines with some MD-Bondo and give it a nice paint job, and improve the vehicle's PB by 5 points. "No, we aren't paint it Red. No, Black isn't acceptable either. It's going to be green and brown and other natural colors so that it blends in with terrain better." I prefer the Hover Hospital, but I'll take the EX5 if I can get one. As other's have said, it's a mobile base of operations, and it can carry a couple hover bikes and power armors for actual combat, and it has enough MDC and can be fitted with enough weapons to allow those combat assets time to deploy. Non-combat characters do like them, for the reasons that were given in the text and other places in this thread.

Anyway, I do hope that there will be more vehicles in NG2 when it comes out that support the theory that everyone's gotta sleep sometime, even if it's just a Rifts take on the "Motorhome." A few more options are always welcome! :)

What I don't get is why the artists seem to love putting guns in the robot's crotches. I mean, they really don't need to be so
phallic, do they? :oops:


Very good points Torjones!
Field functionality is something that I think the explorer series robots really will best assist gaming groups as mobile command stations. A fully rested and healed team is far better in the field than a team that is tired, sick, stiff and smelly. Let alone a place to store all the good rare salvage items, especially any heavy findings (i.e.: broken down power armors, vehicles, etc.) without bogging down your squad or exposing the goods to the environment or accidentally getting it damaged in a fight. I even utilized the "funk-up-your-Power Armor" tactic to teach players a tiny lesson one time. A good deal of major forests predators could track them 1-3 miles away, and everyone was too scared to get out of their power armors to wash up because no one wanted to be vulnerable just in case those predators were out there lurking and stalking them. The funny part was seeing the dice rolls for initiative to race into the showers once they reached the outpost. :lol:

Having a mobile command like the Explorer would have been a major perk for them.

Yes there are quite a few vehicles that will be released in NG2 to suit all sorts of campaign needs.

As to the Artists loving to put guns in robot crotches, um no.....
We don't like doing that at all, at least I know I don't. Its certainly not my cup of tea and to handle smaller opponents up close, I could think of several other areas where I would mount enemy repellent arsenals. However, when a design has been devised long... (thinking Kevin Long), before I was given the assignment and it is still a currently used and liked item, then we Artists (the current crew on deck) have no choice but to follow the predecessor's design if we are illustration something that is based off of the original.

Now to my knowledge NG only had (2) robots (Mobile Hunter & Multi-bot) that fall into that category. So their revised versions are only following suite. So it's not a lot of these crotch gun aesthetics out there in the NG roster.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:09 pm
  

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kaid wrote:
Also when looking at the speed of something like the behemoth 45 does not feel super fast when driving your car on nice paved roads but try doing that off road and its a different story altogether.

Its not going to be outrunning any mechs but its much faster than horses or other riding animals and it can maintain the pace day after day after day over pretty much any terrain as its big enough to simply plow through anything it cannot simply step over.

Edit for a real world example of a heavy war vehicles offroad speed as a comparison the Current M1A1 has an off road speed listed as 30mph and about 42MPH ON road speed. It does not sound fast compared to what we drive every day on the highway but in reality the speed on those mechs is pretty respectable for anything that size.


EXACTLY!!!! So very well put Kaid.
I suspect that many of us can sometimes become desensitized to how fast some of these things are moving. Getting caught up in statistic comparisons between items can be the cause of this, but we should try to remind our selves to not forget just how fast 35-45 mph is as well, especially for constructs or creatures of extreme scale.

Heck just watch this video of a saluki run down this antelope and then remember that the saluki tops out at 40 mph (55 kmh). So envisioning a 70 foot tall Explorer moving at this pace is fast enough without exceeding plausibility.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:11 pm
  

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The crotch gun aesthetic I think was specifically a Kev-Long thang (as in; almost ALL his illos for rifts had 'em... the Kittani Robo-rex in Rifts: South Am. being the be-all end-all phallus titanicus "urinate on your enemy" image)... I'm glad that the redesigns made them more GUN and less PHALLUS.

My two fave bawts in the entire NG1 book have got to be;
1) The MK2 Behemoth (especially if there are no Naruni hover RV's or re-vamped Traix hover-hospitals available) for reasons already given. A mobile home / base which can also assist in large-scale engineering and/or excavation. Put a few after-market enhancements on it (TW magic barriers or stealth spells OR to really P.O. both Naruni AND NG; a super heavy forcefield generator ;) ) and you increase it's survivability beyond the stock model.

2) The Gunwolf. My GAWD the Gunwolf! :D :love: :ok: :nuke: :ok: :love:
It may not have super ammount of MDC, and it's guns may run out ammo quickly in protracted battles but for sheer "I'm a gonna mess you up BAD!" aesthetics plus the firepower & melee combat ability to back up its mean visage?... you really can NOT beat it with anything else commonly available in North Am (not owned by CS that is).

Yeah, no brown nosing here; Mr. Walton out did himself on the visuals...even the ugly "bricks" look like they are MEANT to be bricks.

<Edit Post-script>; as for speed... even the slowest of the bawts top out well above any horse or most wheeled vehicles (seeing as how 80 to 90% of Rifts Terra is wilderness and broken terrain)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:28 pm
  

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Kagashi wrote:
Its not about having more MDC from the last catalog (as described in my previous post). The Power Creep is in the form of the solar power unique ability that no other tech group on Earth has, when NG is supposed to be a lower level of tech than most other major manufacturers. Im not saying that NG having solar power isn't a good idea, or that it shouldn't be in the book. Im saying it is such a simple tech that those whom are more powerful than NG should have it as well. But when those books were written, PB had not thought of that idea yet, thus the Power Creep.


I think you've a perception error here, being lower tech in general doesn't mean that they can't have something that's superior (and it's debatable that having solar power technology constitutes superior technology in any case). The tech in question isn't necessarily something that the others should have either, it's not like it's a requirement that if you're tech level X then you have to have it or have to use it. It's also not a power creep issue, power creep is things getting more powerful in some fashion, solar power technology isn't creeping anything up in that regard. At a minimum they'd need something like a breakthrough to possess anti-matter power supplies or some other superior energy source to start looking at as possibly in the position to start creeping (since an energy source of superior energy production in roughly the same or smaller package as the nuclear supplies would allow for installing energy weapons capable of dealing increased damage at increased range due to the surplus of energy to power them).

Kagashi wrote:
Heck, solar powered weapons in possession of CS troops would actually change my mind somewhat about the outcome of the SoT. If the CS had the ability to "reload" in a war of attrition just as the mages could with their PPE for free, it would have made a 4 year war more believable when troops didn't have to be resupplied to the front by millions and millions of charged eclips when all mages had to do was get some shut eye for the next days fighting. This technology, as simple as it is, really could make or break a prolonged engagement. Yet, the mighty CS does not even understand how to harness the power of the sun. Neither does Triax, Naruni, or Kittani.


Why do you think the CS doesn't have the ability to recharge its e-clips in the field? It would be beyond ridiculous to have front line troops especially that couldn't recharge their energy weapons and had to rely on supply lines to swap out their drained e-clips for fresh ones and spend all that extra time shipping them back instead of recharging on site to reduce the amount of materiel that needs moved to and from the troops. They may not be able to make their own ammo for their rail guns or missiles in the field but they can certainly recharge what's essentially a battery off those military nuclear power cells and without the issue of being limited to only recharge things during the day (when you're most likely to be in a fight and can't spend time recharging off solar anyway) and having no means of recharging at night.

Really, it's not that the CS or Triax or what have you aren't capable of understanding how to build solar rechargers they just don't have to they already have far better and more reliable energy resources for the purpose of recharging e-clips.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:37 pm
  

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DhAkael wrote:
The crotch gun aesthetic I think was specifically a Kev-Long thang (as in; almost ALL his illos for rifts had 'em... the Kittani Robo-rex in Rifts: South Am. being the be-all end-all phallus titanicus "urinate on your enemy" image)... I'm glad that the redesigns made them more GUN and less PHALLUS.

My two fave bawts in the entire NG1 book have got to be;
1) The MK2 Behemoth (especially if there are no Naruni hover RV's or re-vamped Traix hover-hospitals available) for reasons already given. A mobile home / base which can also assist in large-scale engineering and/or excavation. Put a few after-market enhancements on it (TW magic barriers or stealth spells OR to really P.O. both Naruni AND NG; a super heavy forcefield generator ;) ) and you increase it's survivability beyond the stock model.

2) The Gunwolf. My GAWD the Gunwolf! :D :love: :ok: :nuke: :ok: :love:
It may not have super ammount of MDC, and it's guns may run out ammo quickly in protracted battles but for sheer "I'm a gonna mess you up BAD!" aesthetics plus the firepower & melee combat ability to back up its mean visage?... you really can NOT beat it with anything else commonly available in North Am (not owned by CS that is).

Yeah, no brown nosing here; Mr. Walton out did himself on the visuals...even the ugly "bricks" look like they are MEANT to be bricks.

<Edit Post-script>; as for speed... even the slowest of the bawts top out well above any horse or most wheeled vehicles (seeing as how 80 to 90% of Rifts Terra is wilderness and broken terrain)


Wow... DhAkael, forgot about the Robo rex. Yeah maybe K. Long was studying or inspired by a certain aesthetic at the time, I don't know, but I won't be traveling down that path.

I think hooking up and modifying the EX-9 is an awesome idea and certainly what I would seek to do as well. Particularly with hologram projectors, if I could obtain a Force-field generator by all means that (great concept), and very well-hidden TW tech or spells would certainly be a welcomed addition.

As to a Gunwolf, man... so many ideas with this unit, let alone a pack of them.

By all means, Thank you for the compliments and support. I enjoyed working on NG1 & NG2, and I am so glad the Art is well received. I was VERY impressed with everyone's contributions in both Art and Writing on this title. As far as quality, I feel everyone stepped up to the plate and hit homers.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:07 pm
  

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Kagashi wrote:
torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
Now, we have solar powered energy weapons, something very unique to the Rifts setting. As cool as this is of an idea, it just doesnt fit the previous feel of Northern Gun.


I don't really have a problem with this. E-clips are really nothing more than fancy rechargeable batteries. I've always seen NG as more of the Ruger or Colt of the Rifts setting. The one that people go to because they are less expensive, readily available, and very reliable for their price. And they aren't as ugly as Chipwell... ;)


Exactly, so why doesn't the CS have it as well? Or the more advanced groups, say Triax, Kittani, Naruni...


I figure, it's more along the lines of "Why would the CS NEED it?" Everything but their body armor has a nuclear reactor in it, and any operator can rig an e-clip charger to it. What I'm puzzled by is why, if the coalition states can come up with a nuclear reactor that is small enough to fit inside the standard FASSAR-20 Skelebot, and they can afford to pump those things out at a ridiculous rate, why they haven't made a nuclear powered battle rifle, or maybe convert the CTTP40 over to one of those skelebot nuclear power cells? Given the size of the skelebot, the reactor in one of them has to be REALLY small. Personally, I figure it's somewhere between the size of a long e-clip and an energy canister, meaning it should be perfect for 'Heavy Energy Weapons' to replace their reliance on e-clips entirely and give them an unlimited payload for 2-3 years... Hell, they're the Coalition States. They can AFFORD IT...

I think the better question really is, Why hasn't WILK's come up with a solar powered laser? Or, maybe now that NG has, Wilks will release one of their own... I just don't see why any government would bother with solar-powered guns, except maybe as a survival tool... I doubt any manufacturer who didn't sell primarily to the public would bother with such a concept. Most of the manufacturers you're naming are either Governments in their own right, or minions of such.

torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
I mean, technological levels does not directly correlate to how much damage your weapon can deal (MD) and how much damage your armor can absorb (MDC) for an item the same size and category. Unique identifiers and features can often boost to the overall technological levels. For example:
<snip>


I think you're missing the point of the CS technology. The CS isn't really about specializing in any one technology over any others, they are all about having the right tool for whatever job they run across. Run into a new DB that appears to be laser proof? Well, switch to plasma, and see how it likes that! Plasma Proof? Try Rail Guns. Then there's always the large quantity of Missiles the bots carry... If the CS did specialize in one technology over the others, I'd have to call it the Rail Gun. Rail Guns are the primary weapon for more power armors and robots than any other weapon.


And Northern Gun doesn't have this ability as well? Their MDC values, damage values, weapon selection, and different types of weapons are on par with one another. The only difference is the CS does not have solar power, yet they are supposed to be a higher tech level.


I'm not saying that they don't have the capability. What I'm saying is that the two different manufacturers have two completely different client bases. One markets to civilians and mercenaries. The other 'markets' to the CS Military. That having been said, I would agree that Northern Gun being about 15 years behind the CS in terms of R&D is completely acceptable. The CS got really lucky and managed to acquire several Pre-Rifts cache's, mainly Lone Star itself, and that would have put anyone's R&D ahead a few years. Like it did with the Black Market. Like it did with Quebec and their Glitterboy Factories. Maybe Northern Gun didn't get a SAMAS or Glitter Boy factory, maybe they found a Bull Dog or Mastiff factory?

torjones wrote:
Kagashi wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I love the out-of-the-box thinking of recent books when it comes to how a technological manufacturer can be more unique, fun, and exciting, but power creep as struck again, leaving folks like the CS behind again.

Still with all the gripes, its one of the best world books produced in a long time. We finally get a glimpse into the actual nation of Northern Gun, their armies, their stances, and their lifestyle. Now we just need them to get the juices flowing for Lazlo.


I'm sorry, I really don't see the power creep you're complaining about, not that power creep is bad or unwarranted. A Weapons Manufacturer is going to put out improved products regularly, or their competitors will and when that happens, they will get left behind and begin loosing customers. It may be true that on the "Civilian Market" their only real competitors are Wilks and Bandito, and Wilks is really only interested in Laser technology, and Bandito is more EBA and power armor focused, but bandito (the black market) does make knock-offs of other manufacturer's weapons. So basically, as Time moves on, weapons will deal more damage, armor will stop more damage, vehicles/power armor/etc will get faster even with their heavier armor and better weapons... I just don't really see that having happened really with the NG1 book. It feels to me to be more of a fleshing out of their 101PA product catalog than any real improvement in technology. :-|


Its not about having more MDC from the last catalog (as described in my previous post). The Power Creep is in the form of the solar power unique ability that no other tech group on Earth has, when NG is supposed to be a lower level of tech than most other major manufacturers. Im not saying that NG having solar power isn't a good idea, or that it shouldn't be in the book. Im saying it is such a simple tech that those whom are more powerful than NG should have it as well. But when those books were written, PB had not thought of that idea yet, thus the Power Creep.

Heck, solar powered weapons in possession of CS troops would actually change my mind somewhat about the outcome of the SoT. If the CS had the ability to "reload" in a war of attrition just as the mages could with their PPE for free, it would have made a 4 year war more believable when troops didn't have to be resupplied to the front by millions and millions of charged eclips when all mages had to do was get some shut eye for the next days fighting. This technology, as simple as it is, really could make or break a prolonged engagement. Yet, the mighty CS does not even understand how to harness the power of the sun. Neither does Triax, Naruni, or Kittani.


Um, what you're talking about isn't "Power Creep" it's a World Book. The very purpose of a World/Dimension book is to greatly expand upon what is already known about a given faction or area of Rifts Earth/Three Galaxies/Etc. How can anyone write a World Book that doesn't expand on what is known about a given faction?
I also think you're making more of this "solar power unique ability" than it really deserves. I would think that it's not that the other factions on Rifts Earth, and even the Three Galaxies, can't make Solar Powered technology, just that they see no reason to. I mean, really, why bother? Why would Triax, who manufactures weapons, armor, etc for the NGR, bother with making a solar powered gun? All the civilians/mercenaries/adventurers who want to go kill some gargoyles will grab a TX-30 and a stack of FSE-Clips and get down to business. It's not that they don't know how, it's that they don't run their business that way. They sell military arms. Same deal with the Kittani, same deal with Arma-Tech, same deal with, well, just about everyone on Rifts Earth really, except for Northern Gun, Wilks, and Bandito. Maybe H-Brand as well. Those are the only manufacturer's (that I recall at the moment) that deliberately market to non-military clients.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:06 pm
  

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Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
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Nuclear Reactors for Energy Weapons is not likely a good idea. Mainly because it's a constant state of power, not a high burst that an energy rifle needs. Have that nuclear reactor recharge e-clips is more likely a scenario. E-Clips are more like a Capacitor that stores energy, and can release it in a short period of time. While a Nuclear Reactor is more like a Steam Engine... constantly pumping out a steady stream of power.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:08 pm
  

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Tiree wrote:
Nuclear Reactors for Energy Weapons is not likely a good idea. Mainly because it's a constant state of power, not a high burst that an energy rifle needs. Have that nuclear reactor recharge e-clips is more likely a scenario. E-Clips are more like a Capacitor that stores energy, and can release it in a short period of time. While a Nuclear Reactor is more like a Steam Engine... constantly pumping out a steady stream of power.


Some faulty reasoning there, the energy weapons in vehicles and power armor run off of a nuclear reactor with no mention of any energy capacitors required in order for them to function (outside of a few rare cases like the Mark IV space glitter boy's particle beam cannon). Just because E-clips are used to power portable weapons doesn't mean that that's what's required to run it after all, steady power is just fine as long as it meets the power demands required by the weapon at the time.

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