TK forcefield

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Whiskeyjack
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TK forcefield

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Quick question on how other play the TK forcefield.
Do you play it as a one way or two way field? In other words, the characters are inside the field while the badguys are trying to get in. Can the characters shoot through the field from inside, or is impervious, therefore taking damage? What about spells? If the range is 100' and the edge of the field is 20' away, can a mage cast a spell affecting the area outside?
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Force fields are two-way unless otherwise specified.

Magic should be able to pass through force fields, but the physical effects cannot. A fire ball is a physical effect, so could not pass through.
But if you cast Call Lightning, the lightning bolt would go from the sky, and would only be stopped if it was targeting someone IN the force field.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Hotrod »

I interpret force-fields as one-way, and barriers or walls of force as two-way, unless their descriptions read otherwise.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by The Beast »

Hotrod wrote:I interpret force-fields as one-way, and barriers or walls of force as two-way, unless their descriptions read otherwise.


This is how every group I've played with up until my current group has ruled as well. I'm currently unaware how my current group's GM would rule because I'm not a psychic and AFAIK our psychic doesn't have this power yet.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Hotrod wrote:I interpret force-fields as one-way, and barriers or walls of force as two-way, unless their descriptions read otherwise.

So in your games if a person wanted to leave the forcefield, they could walk out, but would then be unable to re-enter?
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Hotrod »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I interpret force-fields as one-way, and barriers or walls of force as two-way, unless their descriptions read otherwise.

So in your games if a person wanted to leave the forcefield, they could walk out, but would then be unable to re-enter?

Depends on the type. If it's a body field, then no, because the field moves with them. If it's stationary, then yes, with the caveat that not all force fields are absolute on this. For example, a Naruni force field from Rifts allows very slow movement into the field (kind of like the force fields in Dune), osmotic air flow (you won't suffocate inside a force field), et cetera. I see force fields as being analogous to diodes in electrical circuits: lots of current can flow one way, but only a trickle the other way unless you overload it.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I've always played it as two-way. While this ability is clearly against the laws of physics, I go with the initial suspension of disbelief. It can be created somehow, but once it is created it acts like any other solid object.

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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by VIsgar »

We've always played that it is two-way.

If you have tk ff then you should be able to use other psionics that can bypass it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by kiralon »

If the forcefield is one way
Do you have to go all the way through the force before it stops you coming back.
If someone is half way through the forcefield can you shoot a ballista through that person and get the person behind them inside the forcefield.
What happens if 2 forcefields overlap (i.e. a gnome in a 3ft force field inside an ogres 9ft forcefield tries to walk out).

I play that a forcefield is 2 way unless it mentions otherwise, and telekinetic force field says its airtight so definitely 2 way blocking.

TK forcefield + Create water or vacuum.
Awesome way to assassinate someone in bed.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

kiralon wrote:If the forcefield is one way
Do you have to go all the way through the force before it stops you coming back.
If someone is half way through the forcefield can you shoot a ballista through that person and get the person behind them inside the forcefield.
What happens if 2 forcefields overlap (i.e. a gnome in a 3ft force field inside an ogres 9ft forcefield tries to walk out).

I play that a forcefield is 2 way unless it mentions otherwise, and telekinetic force field says its airtight so definitely 2 way blocking.

TK forcefield + Create water or vacuum.
Awesome way to assassinate someone in bed.


Wouldn't the forcefield prevent the spells from being cast inside it?
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by kiralon »

No, not as far as I understand.
If you have los and are in range only physical effects are blocked. If the tk forcefield was opaque it would be a different matter.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Hotrod »

For a 1-way force field, yes, you have to go all the way through before you can't go back. For someone partially through, it's like surface tension that holds a water droplet back from falling; just as the droplet is still part of the water that feeds it, the force field still protects the person. Once the person is all the way through, the droplet separates, and there's no protection. As for overlap, I'm honestly not sure; things could get complicated very quickly (is one within another, or are there partial overlaps?).

I like the assassination idea. I think the intent of force fields is to provide defense and/or barriers, not murder people, but your drown/suffocate idea certainly works within your interpretation, and in a rather scary way (no saves, you're dead).

Understand, I have no beef with a 2-way, and it can certainly be easier for everyone to visualize.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

kiralon wrote:TK forcefield + Create water or vacuum.
Awesome way to assassinate someone in bed.

Or Pyrokinesis Pillar of Flame.

Though I'm not sure if such actions would actually be possible with RUE's (pg183) expanded power description which adds:
-"Any weapon blast, explosion, and magical energy attacks, such as Call Lightning, Fire Ball, etc will hit the Force Field" (originating from outside by context)
-"It will stop area effect magic" (give example of Carpet of Adhesion and/or Cloud of X). You can teleport inside (stated), so depending on how you hand Create Vacuum/Water (displace or swap places) it may or may not work. Given you can't run out of air (in PF), Water/Vacuum might be viewed as being blocked (at least a Pillar of Flame can potentially burn them, but not use up the oxygen)
-"Characters inside the force field suffer from the same limitations and cannot fire weapons or energy magic from within the force field without hitting and damaging their protective bubble, and anyone caught inside a force field bubble is trapped inside"
-they also discuss using it as a trap and how target can defend (Dodge at penalty provided they know its coming)

This expansion may or may not apply to PF2E, but it is worth noting its handling in other megaversal lines.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by kiralon »

Surprisingly the TK force field is airtight, says it in the description so easily can run out of air (Check vacuum spell as well) so you can definitely run out of air in palladium.
And for create water, if the water streamed from the hands it would be blocked but create water says " The water can be created up to sixty feet away
and/or in mid-air making" so it just pops out of nowhere, but a nowhere you have to be able to see. and at level 5 its about 375 litres per casting, but tk force fields can be layered, and i'm not exactly sure how you could know its coming as the psionicist doesn't need to gesture, use words or anything.
The RUE is too vague for me, it would could lots of arguments at my table, I understand if the point of cloud creation with the cloud not penetrating if started from the outside, but how about if it starts on the inside, just like teleport ends on the inside. Can you charm someone through it magically. I always assumed the psionic forcefield would protect against spirits, but doesn't.
More importantly it only stops weapons and magic going out. Psionic physical attacks aren't stopped, only magical ones from the inside, and reading it specifically you could send an ectoplasmic arm out through it to slap people as it specifically states that the psionicist can use any of his psionic powers through it.

The RUE description smells of a power that has had arbitrary (1d6, 1-3 no, 4-6 yes or even gm fiat no)decisions because someone (the gm) who had an adventure, had players use a mind mage to easily defeat/kill a problem/opponent and the gm didn't like it. And that GM knew or was someone in palladium who had to deal with the er strange combinations/not well thought out/just plain badly worded descriptions of powers, and the reason why its often mind mages is because they mostly took away the level limits on power choices. I understand, I have had to do it many times myself.
Hell even simple turn dead isn't simple as various descriptions in the books say conflicting things about what it effects.

So on the whole I would leave the RUE description in RUE.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Being able to cast physical attacks inside a forcefield kind of defeats the entire purpose. Any first level mage can completely bypass it and render it useless. A level 2 warlock could just cast wall of clay inside and crush everyone in there. I can see mental attacks having an effect though.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

kiralon wrote:Surprisingly the TK force field is airtight, says it in the description so easily can run out of air (Check vacuum spell as well) so you can definitely run out of air in palladium.

I know it says TK:FF is airtight, but that doesn't mean you can run out of air nor that Create Water/Vacuum would work.

TK:FF has an area effect of 3ft^2/.9m^2, though since its a bubble and not a flat surface we have to do some figuring. For Vacuum we are given an area effect again, so they are somewhat comparable, and Vacuum requires a Level 2 caster to exceed the minimum value (Level 5 caster for a maximum size TK:FF at Level 1, IINM a Level 4 TK:FF would be impossible to vacuum-ize completely at maximum size).

Create Water is a bit more complex. We know that it creates 75.7L per level (I'm going with Metric values here since 1m^3 =1000Liters). Liter is a measure of Volume, but we only have area.

There are several ways to assume what area refers to (unfortunately) both yielding different Volume results:
-that area is the Surface Area of a Sphere, the radius of ~0.268m with a Volume of 0.080m^3. (require Level 2 caster)
-it is a cross section area of a sphere (ie circle), the radius is ~0.535m with a Volume of ~0.641m^3 (which requires a level 9 caster)
-other shapes are possible (cylinder being the next most likely, but rectangular or pyramid shapes can't be completely ruled out), but those are going to require some assumptions pertaining to all applicable dimensions. Not going to look at these alternates.

The Maximum Area quoted requires a Level 7 caster (IF Surface area of sphere) or Level 51 caster (IF area of a circle) and that IS for a Level 1 TK:FF vs Create Water. As the TK:FF maximum size goes up it takes even higher levels.

Re: Airsupply
TK:FF has a duration of 10minutes per level. A quick online search shows we breath about 7-8L of air per minute, and we use 5% of the 20% oxygen in the air, using the Volumes above for minimum size:
-Surface Area of a Sphere has 80L of air, so 10minutes (good for Level 1 TK:FF) before factoring in Oxygen use (x3-4 longer)
-Circle Area has a volume of 641L of air, so 80minutes (good for Level 8 TK:FF) before factoring in Oxygen use (x3-4 longer)

So trying to get the air to run out naturally, seems to be very difficult but possible.

kiralon wrote:so it just pops out of nowhere, but a nowhere you have to be able to see.

I get that it pops into place (vacuum or water), HOWEVER where does THE AIR GO when it comes in? There are really only two solutions, the air is removed or it stays in place and just gets moved (but it can't escape the bubble).

kiralon wrote:The RUE is too vague for me,

I find RUE to be more specific than PF2E or RMB or HU2E since it goes into more depth on what you can and can't do. However I do recognize PF's vagueness might over rule RUE for PF2E setting questions.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by kiralon »

Well as the RUE version says you can't do an airtight bubble around the head running out of air was a problem that had to be dealt with at one stage otherwise the statement about putting it around somoenes head wouldn't be there.
But when I said too vague I meant to much left to guess with some illogical rules in place that make more questions then it answers. Does energy magic include energy psionics, can crystal weapons just shoot straight through because they are psionic, how about a psi sword, would that be effected. Does a tk force field interact with psionics at all, do psionics open a hole when they pass through or not, can you shoot an arrow through when another power passes through. Will it contain or block river of lava, can a wizard cast telekinesis and beat you to death by slamming you against your own shield or is that blocked, does the death spell pass though, what happens if you get turned into a whale while inside it, or if someone psionically teleports an indestructible staff into the forcefield but has an end that will stick out, Not to mention chi attacks.These would be questions I'd have to answer because of the odd caveats on the spell. (not to mention what other question would need to be answered, like can you cast carpet of adhesion on someone that you can only see through a window.

Whereas the palladium one gives me the feel that
Physical Magic and Psionics stop at the barrier, and do damage if it damages (so no tk punching through it)
If something has a point of origin like a gas cloud or carpet of adhesion, if the start location is inside, it stays inside. If it starts outside it stays outside.
Mental effecting magic and psionics just pass on through.
And that is because it doesn't give caveats like psionics aren't affected, and only specifically mention magic energy attacks and weapons.
Psi Sword is the good example, it should pass through because it's psionic, but shouldn't because its a weapon.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

RUE though is far more detailed in coverage than PF2E (or old RMB or HU2E).

Re: Psychics (maybe also Chi, not familiar with this particularly), if the specific power is energy or projectile (or those with physical substance basically) in a nature (stated in using it to parry) would by extension rule out Psi-Sword, Mind Bolt, various-Kenesis powers (in general, exceptions exist), and Ectoplasam would be blocked.

Text does allow for Bio-Manipulation and Empathic Transmission, along with Astral Beings to penetrate the TK:FF. So you could use TK to move a target w/n the field (every time the target smashes into the field though you'd do damage to the field and if the smahie is generating the field they can always cancel it OR if knocked unconscious that would cancel the field to), but if you use it to move something outside the field as an attack it hit the barrier.

(PF) Crystal Magic is Psionic in Nature IIRC, which follows the above as it would depend on the nature of the attack.

Re: TK:FF and doing shape shifting
We know from other examples in Rifts, like casting Giant can destroy items being worn or cancel protective spell magic. So I'd say that TK:FF surrounding a target of shape shifting (be it natural or spell) would cause the TK:FF to break under the strain (EBA in Rifts exist that can equal several levels of TK:FF). While I don't think Metamorphosis abilities (in general, Vampires have an exception IIRC) state they destroy clothing, they don't get to take it with them as they reappear naked which is basically what happens in Giant.
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Re: TK forcefield

Unread post by kiralon »

Yeah it is, and I think your interpretation of it is right on, but pc's will argue for anything that keeps them alive and sometimes more power. The sentence about the psionic being able to cast through is disassociated enough that it could be argued, and the limiting sentence is in the next paragraph and changes the limit to firing weapons and magic energy, and it has been specified that psionics isn't magic thus isn't magic energy. That's why I prefer the pfrpg blurb, doesn't confuse things as much.

Why would you be able to teleport into it and not create something inside it (sleeping cloud for example) when LOS is the only requirement.
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