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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:04 am
  

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http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=183
http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... er-80.html

so it looks like we're getting our next official CE material in the rifter.. and it is a setting work, giving us somewhere other than the Chicago-Detroit area to run games in.

Nebraska has been mentioned in the First Responders portion of the Surviving Chaos Earth Raw book, in reference to the first responders. though i'm not sure how much the authors of that work and the author of the rifter work had in terms of communication.

what will be interesting is that this will be the first official setting work for CE.. the previous one, "Britain in Chaos" in Rifter 27, was not official (and probably a good thing too, considering how lackluster and short that article was.)

i'm curious as to whether CE:Nebraska will see print as a full sourcebook in the future.. wether in deadtree or PDF-only.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:51 am
  

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    As far as how much communications there was between the authors ... I do tend to talk to myself occasionally so ... I wrote in reference to Nebraska (such as the famous Nebraskan Prepper!) in the RAW because I was working on both works at the same time.

Dan


PS Rifter 69 had New Mexico, not official but I liked it! lol ;)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:10 pm
  

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forgot that you worked on First Responders too.. tend to think of it as a Jason Richards book since it was his project originally.

so without spoiling too much, what makes Nebraska different from the Chicago-Detroit area of the main CE books so far?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:16 am
  

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The weather is may worse. What arrives from the Rifts (origins of certain known things). Mentality of dig in and survive in place, both NEMA and mostly non NEMA average everyday people.

The material gives options and ideas on playing elsewhere than just Chicago.

Sorry, super vague, but I think it'll be a fun read.

I'd love to do more locations, Colorado, West Coast, Texas, etc.

Might, and adventure scenarios too, but I am working on a new project for PB that I think will be fun (and it has me writing like mad...need more time and less having a job lol).

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:47 am
  

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I am really happy to get some more CE setting material. I am still waiting for U.S. Military OCC's and has anyone said anything about U.S. military personnel abroad? Do we still have tens of thousands of troops around the world in 2098? And if we do are any of them able to get home?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:51 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I am really happy to get some more CE setting material. I am still waiting for U.S. Military OCC's and has anyone said anything about U.S. military personnel abroad? Do we still have tens of thousands of troops around the world in 2098? And if we do are any of them able to get home?

We don't know much about the U.S. Military, its mention in First Responders is one of the first for Chaos Earth, the implication seems to be that NEMA sort of took the place of the Army, while the Navy continued on. I kind of recall a mention of U.S. Marines in a Ritter but I don't recall which one.
If this is the case then I expect that Army troops overseas would have been brought home or replaced by NEMA troops. I guess that, maybe, the Navy & Marine bases overseas (especially in Japan) were primarily lost during the cataclysm due to either tsunamis or volcanic action or most died attempting to defend the local populace or died trying to get back to the U.S. with perhaps some survivors linking up with remnants of the Pacific or Atlantic fleets to join the Ticonderoga and eventually becoming the New Navy.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:36 am
  

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Someone can set up a current day Rifts,s game where the NEMA,s Cache is found.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:24 pm
  

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gaby wrote:
Someone can set up a current day Rifts,s game where the NEMA,s Cache is found.


I thought that would be fun. That idea is what inspired me to add more on NEMA...

I wrote some more about NEMA and their HQ locations and the primary issues each command has to contend with. (Page 9 RAW CE First Responders).

Which led me to research and write about (on page 10) about NEMAs Urban Search and Rescue (USR) task forces and the caches the USR have located across North America.

In the time of CE survivors might seek out and even live in those USR sites. But, in the time of Rifts it would be fun for your characters, who might be in desperate need of ammo or supplies, to find one of these USR sites! What dangers and security measures were left behind for your Rifts characters to fight when they arrive? Possibly an old computer security system that misses talking to humans...wait, that's been done lol.

The whole Survivalist O.C.C. that is in First Responders and in Rifter 80, 81 and 82 came about from thinking about caches and what might be around in Rifts time too. I loved the Survivalist O.C.C. and the character Crazy Cade :) Wrote more about him but don't know if it'll ever see light.

Enjoy!

Dan

PS More CE!!

Rifts® Chaos Earth® – Pyromancer

http://palladium-store.com/1001/product ... er-82.html

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:04 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:12 pm
  

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Glad to see new material for CE.

I would really, REALLY like to see issue of what form the US military took before the Rifts be cleared up at some point. I'm not sure PB will ever do that, since they tend to shy away from direct/raw military data. For my two cents I see NEMA as replacing the bulk of civilian armed agencies, but not taking the place of the actual military. For all I know maybe there is a branch of NEMA that is made of grunts and PA/Robot pilots without the Peacekeepers and Roscoes in the mix, taking the place of the US Army, and they were the ones down in SA with the Glitter Boys at the end.
Who knows.....

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:30 am
  

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we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines, and still use a lot of the same gear. The Bandito Arms SAMAS suits in WB14 and the USA SAMAS in WB15 are said to be AirForce (which seems odd since PA seems like more of a Army thing, but presumably the USAF got the SAMAS due to the fact the suits are technically 'fixed wing' tactical vehicles and thus by the Johnson-McConnell agreement of 1966 the Army can't use them.)
The IronHeart Armaments Main Battle Tanks, APC's, helicopter, and jet fighter are said to be pre-rifts designs. while they were found in Canada, the fact Canada, the USA, and mexico were part of a military and economic alliance suggests that said vehicles were probably used by all three nations, and design wise the tanks sure look american, given they are basically versions of the M1 abrams and M2 Bradley with some extra scifi stuff tacked on.
MercOps has some basic body armor and an assualt rifle/laser combo that are from the USArmy, though implied to have been earlier hardware and used only by the national guard in 2098.


honestly it would not be hard to translate a good chunk of the early (mainbook) CS gear into 2098 USArmy gear. after all, the CS fluff says said gear was based off pre-cataclysm designs. the USarmy getting slightly less advanced versions of NEMA infantry weapons, and a set of bodyarmor separate from the NEMA suit, would fit the setting well enough. especially since the NEMA troops are functionally closer to military special forces, which usually get the more advanced gear and special hardware before the mainstream units do. (not to mention access to a lot of specialized gear that the regular troops almost never get to use.)


and as far as NEMA goes, your gut feeling is literally what the Chaos Earth book says about them. people often forget that part and treat the intelligence+homeland security organization that is NEMA as if it replaced everything (to the point people use "nema" to refer to the NAA (the North American Alliance.. the organization that included the US, canada, and mexico, and which NEMA was but a small part of. though the only one with complete cross border authority). given that CE focuses almost entirely on NEMA without addressing any of the others, i suppose that is understandable that people owuld forget that there was more to the defense of north america than just NEMA.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
MercOps has some basic body armor and an assualt rifle/laser combo that are from the USArmy, though implied to have been earlier hardware and used only by the national guard in 2098.

That rifle should really be more popular than Merc Ops makes out. Between vampires and the minion wars, there should really be a bigger market for both that weapon and other manufacturers taking the basic concept and putting their own version together. If nothing else, you'd think the black market would take the basic idea and then change the laser to an L20.

Once Merc Ops came out, I know that we decided that the M-21 was a common weapon to find in the immediate post-cataclysm years, and our GM liked including it if you found a Golden Age weapons cache or as an heirloom kind of weapon in wilderness villages and towns. The ability to carry a single weapon that could be use for both hunting and MD is pretty attractive. Upgraded variants of it (such as the above swapping of an L20 for it) also became very common. We also decided that the marines would have made a variant of the M-160 with an sdc assault rifle component like the M-21 as well, and that started showing up in games, too.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:47 pm
  

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given that the M-16 and its variants are a common sight outside the military IRL, i could see the M-21 appearing in caches all over. there would likely have been stocks of them in most national guard buildings, the police likely had a stock in their armories for their SWAT and for arming cops in major incidents, etc.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:53 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines,

I would like to point out that the New Navy is made up of a small number of mutineers from one single task force and not a "good chunk of the US navy and marines"

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Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:42 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines,

I would like to point out that the New Navy is made up of a small number of mutineers from one single task force and not a "good chunk of the US navy and marines"

To be fair we have no idea how much of the USN would become the New Navy. Some people believe that the US Military had been reduced to such a degree that the survivors that would become the New Navy did constitute a major part of the USN. Others, and I include myself in this group, think that the New Cold War had caused such an increase in defense spending that those survivors would indeed constitute just part of the Pacific Fleet and certainly not a "good chunk" of the overall navy. Both of these are just opinions though as there are no actual numbers so "good chunk" is as valid as any other.

One thing we do know is that your "single task force" is incorrect. The Ticonderoga and her attached subs were one task group on there own. You could even say that the survivors of the two bases that they gathered to one were part of the same task force, though from an organizational stand point this seems unlikely, but the book clearly says that they gathered 18,000 people (six times the capacity of the Tico) "additional survivors from other bases and experimental underwater colonies". We also know from the description that they probably had at least a few surface ships and probably Tridents from other fleets as well but this is not stated specifically but it seems likely as they would have needed a few to move all those people to Refuge.

Question, and I am certain I am going to regret this, where on any Earth do you get the "mutineers"

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:31 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines,

I would like to point out that the New Navy is made up of a small number of mutineers from one single task force and not a "good chunk of the US navy and marines"

To be fair we have no idea how much of the USN would become the New Navy. Some people believe that the US Military had been reduced to such a degree that the survivors that would become the New Navy did constitute a major part of the USN. Others, and I include myself in this group, think that the New Cold War had caused such an increase in defense spending that those survivors would indeed constitute just part of the Pacific Fleet and certainly not a "good chunk" of the overall navy. Both of these are just opinions though as there are no actual numbers so "good chunk" is as valid as any other.

One thing we do know is that your "single task force" is incorrect. The Ticonderoga and her attached subs were one task group on there own. You could even say that the survivors of the two bases that they gathered to one were part of the same task force, though from an organizational stand point this seems unlikely, but the book clearly says that they gathered 18,000 people (six times the capacity of the Tico) "additional survivors from other bases and experimental underwater colonies". We also know from the description that they probably had at least a few surface ships and probably Tridents from other fleets as well but this is not stated specifically but it seems likely as they would have needed a few to move all those people to Refuge.

Question, and I am certain I am going to regret this, where on any Earth do you get the "mutineers"

I'm curious about the mutineers part as well.

Regarding numbers, it is likely safe to say that by the time you get to the end of the first year after the coming of the rifts, they constituted a good chunk of the surviving members of the navy and the marines.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:57 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines,

I would like to point out that the New Navy is made up of a small number of mutineers from one single task force and not a "good chunk of the US navy and marines"

To be fair we have no idea how much of the USN would become the New Navy. Some people believe that the US Military had been reduced to such a degree that the survivors that would become the New Navy did constitute a major part of the USN. Others, and I include myself in this group, think that the New Cold War had caused such an increase in defense spending that those survivors would indeed constitute just part of the Pacific Fleet and certainly not a "good chunk" of the overall navy. Both of these are just opinions though as there are no actual numbers so "good chunk" is as valid as any other.

We know that they had enough of an active fleet going that they had multiple bases with multiple ships that were able to be salvaged by the CS later.
That suggests that there was a pretty decent Navy operating.

Warshield73 wrote:
One thing we do know is that your "single task force" is incorrect. The Ticonderoga and her attached subs were one task group on there own. You could even say that the survivors of the two bases that they gathered to one were part of the same task force, though from an organizational stand point this seems unlikely, but the book clearly says that they gathered 18,000 people (six times the capacity of the Tico) "additional survivors from other bases and experimental underwater colonies". We also know from the description that they probably had at least a few surface ships and probably Tridents from other fleets as well but this is not stated specifically but it seems likely as they would have needed a few to move all those people to Refuge.

All of which is one task force, at best.
This was not some massive fleet operation.
It was a task force of several ships and support elements.

Warshield73 wrote:
Question, and I am certain I am going to regret this, where on any Earth do you get the "mutineers"

That is pretty easy.
There was an operational government and survivors for several *decades* after the Cataclysm.
This government was broadcasting, in the clear, for years messages about how and where to link up and how to find them.
They did not even attempt to link up with them. In defiance of orders from their lawful superiors to link up and provide aid they fled to their bases, and hid. And when some of them tried to follow orders, they were not aided, they were sent out with minimal supplies to live or die.
That is pretty text book mutiny as well as cowardice in the face of the enemy.
They did not attempt to look for survivors, they did not attempt to contact the government. They fled like cowards and then hid.
Mutineers every man jack of them.
They are not Marines, they are traitors, cowards, mutineers and pirates and deserve court-martials and to be shot at dawn.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:13 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
we have some data scattered across the rifts worldbooks.. the New Navy in WB7 is the descendants of a good chunk of the US navy and marines,

I would like to point out that the New Navy is made up of a small number of mutineers from one single task force and not a "good chunk of the US navy and marines"

To be fair we have no idea how much of the USN would become the New Navy. Some people believe that the US Military had been reduced to such a degree that the survivors that would become the New Navy did constitute a major part of the USN. Others, and I include myself in this group, think that the New Cold War had caused such an increase in defense spending that those survivors would indeed constitute just part of the Pacific Fleet and certainly not a "good chunk" of the overall navy. Both of these are just opinions though as there are no actual numbers so "good chunk" is as valid as any other.

We know that they had enough of an active fleet going that they had multiple bases with multiple ships that were able to be salvaged by the CS later.
That suggests that there was a pretty decent Navy operating.

The naval units you are referencing, those first recovered by GAW and then purchased by the CS, were mothballed units from pre-golden age. Modern real world stuff from the 1990's. They were not active and many people use this reference as proof that the active USN was rather small. As far as we know the only active USN unit to survive CE into Rifts is in the New Navy. If I am wrong about that please give me a reference to work with.

Again, I believe the US military was good sized but that has not been established anywhere in the canon so far.

eliakon wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
One thing we do know is that your "single task force" is incorrect. The Ticonderoga and her attached subs were one task group on there own. You could even say that the survivors of the two bases that they gathered to one were part of the same task force, though from an organizational stand point this seems unlikely, but the book clearly says that they gathered 18,000 people (six times the capacity of the Tico) "additional survivors from other bases and experimental underwater colonies". We also know from the description that they probably had at least a few surface ships and probably Tridents from other fleets as well but this is not stated specifically but it seems likely as they would have needed a few to move all those people to Refuge.

All of which is one task force, at best.
This was not some massive fleet operation.
It was a task force of several ships and support elements.

OK I'm not sure what definition of the term Task Force you are using here. If you are just using it to describe a small number of ships with a fleet being a big number please let me know. The book clearly says that these ships and bases were not operating together as a single unit before the coming of the Rifts. If your saying that it is a small number of ships...we don't know that either.

18,000 people is a lot for the USN of 2098. a modern Carrier Group operates with less than 8,000 so this would be more than two such groups totaling over a dozen ships in modern term. Now the Ticonderoga, including here two attached subs, carries a total of about 10,000 so most of that 18,000 could come from her but that seems unlikely as there would be no reason for her to be carrying a max load. Also her crew is only 3,500 significantly smaller than a modern carrier that has far fewer aircraft and the Trident has a crew of just 24. Put all this together and it likely means that modern naval ships operated with crews anywhere from 20% to 66% of modern standards.

The bases were described as small, mostly automated and we know that the Tico could evacuate one of them all by itself so if the base had more that 2,000 people each that would be shocking as these were NOT full bases with public ports but small secret operations. Put all this together and two bases, the experimental underwater colonies, and the Tico could account for at most 12,000 to 14,000. That leaves 4,000 people from other ships. If even a portion of these are on ships with crew requirements like the Trident or a small Destroyers / Frigates (2098 equivalent to say Zumwalts with its less than 150 crew each) and you could have dozens of other combat and logistics ships. We know the New Navy operates two full surface carrier groups. For all we know one of those could be a Golden age survivor that was part of that 18,000.

eliakon wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Question, and I am certain I am going to regret this, where on any Earth do you get the "mutineers"

That is pretty easy.
There was an operational government and survivors for several *decades* after the Cataclysm.
This government was broadcasting, in the clear, for years messages about how and where to link up and how to find them.
They did not even attempt to link up with them. In defiance of orders from their lawful superiors to link up and provide aid they fled to their bases, and hid. And when some of them tried to follow orders, they were not aided, they were sent out with minimal supplies to live or die.
That is pretty text book mutiny as well as cowardice in the face of the enemy.
They did not attempt to look for survivors, they did not attempt to contact the government. They fled like cowards and then hid.
Mutineers every man jack of them.
They are not Marines, they are traitors, cowards, mutineers and pirates and deserve court-martials and to be shot at dawn.

Yeah I knew I should have ignored that. Source please. The Underseas book, and Rifts Space for that matter, says that they received no such communication. Also the description of the few people that left specifically said they wanted to go looking for family and loved ones. It, in no way shape or form, said they wanted to follow orders.

We also know from the CE book that Sawyer could not reach any government from US, Canada, or Mexico and that is from GEORGIA. Given the location of the bases that would make up the New Navy he would be on the other side of the world so if she wasn't getting orders, he wasn't.

Where do you get functioning government broadcasting for decades from? And since no person on Earth in 110 PA can broadcast "in the clear" from one side of the Earth to the other (or even from one side of the state of Illinois to the other) how was this accomplished in the middle of the Apocalypse?

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Last edited by Warshield73 on Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:13 am
  

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Yeah, p. 106 of Underseas makes it clear that they came to believe that they were the sole survivors of the US Navy, and perhaps the country, after several months. That would indicate that they tried to make contact over that time frame and couldn't.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:20 am
  

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there was an operational paramilitary organization in the form of the NEMA survivors in chicago. But CE makes is clear that the government was destroyed in the first days of the cataclysm, when congress and the rest got hit by the natural disasters, and the communications fragmented due to the enviromental conditions. even the military commands were gone due to the same causes.

north america suffered complete decapitation regarding civil and military command structures. you wouldn't even get a BSG type situation where someone 40 some places down the list could get sworn in, because even if someone that was even on the list survived, there was no way for them to exercise any sort of actual power, because there was no way for them to actually communicate with anyone.

the only reason General Sawyer was able to save NEMA as a semi-functional organization in chicago was because she sent the word out for as much of NEMA as possible to concentrate there before communications went completely pear shaped, and she did that against not only her pre-disaster directives to protect Atlanta, but with absolutely no authority to command any part of NEMA beyond her own forces in Atlanta. since the lack of any kind of intact higher command structure left every command on their own, those that had a chance to reach chicago made the effort, on the principle that at least somebody had a plan.

just because they were the biggest organization to remain at least partially intact at the time does not make them a government.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:47 pm
  

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with the forum migration, the thread i nthe old forum saw some additional activity. reposting here..

eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
there was an operational paramilitary organization in the form of the NEMA survivors in chicago. But CE makes is clear that the government was destroyed in the first days of the cataclysm, when congress and the rest got hit by the natural disasters, and the communications fragmented due to the enviromental conditions. even the military commands were gone due to the same causes.

north america suffered complete decapitation regarding civil and military command structures. you wouldn't even get a BSG type situation where someone 40 some places down the list could get sworn in, because even if someone that was even on the list survived, there was no way for them to exercise any sort of actual power, because there was no way for them to actually communicate with anyone.

the only reason General Sawyer was able to save NEMA as a semi-functional organization in chicago was because she sent the word out for as much of NEMA as possible to concentrate there before communications went completely pear shaped, and she did that against not only her pre-disaster directives to protect Atlanta, but with absolutely no authority to command any part of NEMA beyond her own forces in Atlanta. since the lack of any kind of intact higher command structure left every command on their own, those that had a chance to reach chicago made the effort, on the principle that at least somebody had a plan.

just because they were the biggest organization to remain at least partially intact at the time does not make them a government.

Actually that does.
That is how chains of command *work*
The US military IS a chain of command.
From the PotUS all the way down to the most junior PV1 there is a chain of command.
Simply because diserters fled from their chain and didn't respond doesn't mean anything.
There was a city of Chicago running. There was a government there.
Chain Of Command. There is a legitimate authority and it is the job of the military to report in.
If they can't report in, they are to find a way to do so.
There are procedures on this.
And I will note that the books do NOT say that there was no government
Nor do the books say that there was no one at all in command
They books say that she was the most senior officer they could find and that the PotUS is dead.
That is rather different.
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that the entire succession was killed, then that is simply just fannon.
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that communications were not working then that is simply just fannon.

And sorry, no your head canon and fannon is not an excuse for the marines to mutiny.
They were able to watch China go under on satalite coms
They were able to talk to Chicago from Atlanta
They were able to talk from Earth to Space
So yeah, sorry the idea that coms were gone and there was no government at all... pure, 100% fannon.

dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
there was an operational paramilitary organization in the form of the NEMA survivors in chicago. But CE makes is clear that the government was destroyed in the first days of the cataclysm, when congress and the rest got hit by the natural disasters, and the communications fragmented due to the enviromental conditions. even the military commands were gone due to the same causes.

north america suffered complete decapitation regarding civil and military command structures. you wouldn't even get a BSG type situation where someone 40 some places down the list could get sworn in, because even if someone that was even on the list survived, there was no way for them to exercise any sort of actual power, because there was no way for them to actually communicate with anyone.

the only reason General Sawyer was able to save NEMA as a semi-functional organization in chicago was because she sent the word out for as much of NEMA as possible to concentrate there before communications went completely pear shaped, and she did that against not only her pre-disaster directives to protect Atlanta, but with absolutely no authority to command any part of NEMA beyond her own forces in Atlanta. since the lack of any kind of intact higher command structure left every command on their own, those that had a chance to reach chicago made the effort, on the principle that at least somebody had a plan.

just because they were the biggest organization to remain at least partially intact at the time does not make them a government.

Actually that does.
That is how chains of command *work*
The US military IS a chain of command.
From the PotUS all the way down to the most junior PV1 there is a chain of command.
Simply because diserters fled from their chain and didn't respond doesn't mean anything.
There was a city of Chicago running. There was a government there.
Chain Of Command. There is a legitimate authority and it is the job of the military to report in.
If they can't report in, they are to find a way to do so.
There are procedures on this.
And I will note that the books do NOT say that there was no government
Nor do the books say that there was no one at all in command
They books say that she was the most senior officer they could find and that the PotUS is dead.
That is rather different.
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that the entire succession was killed, then that is simply just fannon.
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that communications were not working then that is simply just fannon.

And sorry, no your head canon and fannon is not an excuse for the marines to mutiny.
They were able to watch China go under on satalite coms
They were able to talk to Chicago from Atlanta
They were able to talk from Earth to Space
So yeah, sorry the idea that coms were gone and there was no government at all... pure, 100% fannon.

I'll cite myself first:
Quote:
Yeah, p. 106 of Underseas makes it clear that they came to believe that they were the sole survivors of the US Navy, and perhaps the country, after several months. That would indicate that they tried to make contact over that time frame and couldn't.
This implies that they were trying to make contact and were unable to do so. We know that the last message that was received by the orbital community we at 7:53 am on Christmas day, 2098. We know that 10 days after the Cataclysm on New Year's Eve, 2098, "Worldwide communications collapse. There is no Internet. No satellite feed, no far reaching television, and no telecommunications. Interference comes not just from the ash filled heavens, but from the walls of blue energy, raging storms, cables severed by earthquakes and the collapse of communication systems and the businesses and relay stations that maintained them only yesterday. In most cases, communications are so shattered that city blocks are cut off from their nearest neighbors. Events happening only a few streets away go on without media coverage or news reports. Radios and televisions buzz with static or garbled noise." That quote is all from p. 15 of Chaos Earth.

Also, p. 22 of Chaos Earth: "Satellite communications and GPAs are nothing but dead air. Freak storms...and other inexplicable disturbances make even short-range communications garbled. At best your communicators work at half the normal range, more often than not, they can't transmit farther than a mile and even then the sound quality is poor."

General Lindsey Sawyer's own diary entry from Dec. 31st, 2098, says "It is painfully clear that the entire infrastructure of our nation has been shattered and the government is gone. Communications are gone and anarchy reigns." From Jan. 11th, "Of course, we've lost contact with the outside world and 95% of our own country." From Feb. 14th 2099, "People are starting to accept what I've known all along. There is no resurgent government. We're on our own. There won't be a mass rallying of NEMA troops to our side.

That should serve to establish that communications were not working as canon, as well as make it clear that those at the place you were citing as a center of government were of the opinion that there was no government. So, returning to the New Navy, after several months of trying to get into contact, they couldn't do so and carried on as best they could. What would you assert would be required for that course of action to not count as mutiny? Should they have continued to send expeditions inland until there was no one left, ultimately abandoning the ship if needed in order to try and make contact?

Warshield73 wrote:
I can't believe we are having another one of these conversations.
First you are making an assertion. This means, in an argument you must provide the proof. That's how it is supposed to work to save everyone time so that we can have a fact based (or in this case because it is a fictional setting a canon based) conversation.

If I say that in Rifts there is a tea pot orbiting the solar system between Uranus and Neptune it would be up to me to site the book that it is in not for other people to site the book that says it doesn't exist.

I sited two books which said communications were down, I didn't bother to look for the pages but that's because you had provided zero evidence for your position so I didn't think it was worth the time. dreicunan did provide the page number to which your rebuttal, I mean response since no evidence was provided, failed to answer at all. I'm not sure what in the 'concept' of the New Navy that has you so negative but until you provide a source, in a book, it is just the concept and not fact.

eliakon wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
just because they were the biggest organization to remain at least partially intact at the time does not make them a government.


Actually that does.
That is how chains of command *work*
The US military IS a chain of command.
From the PotUS all the way down to the most junior PV1 there is a chain of command.
Simply because diserters fled from their chain and didn't respond doesn't mean anything.
There was a city of Chicago running. There was a government there.
Chain Of Command. There is a legitimate authority and it is the job of the military to report in.

No, this is not how chain of command works. If the state government of Illinois is still functioning it does not get to give orders to the US military. If an FBI field office in Peoria is still functioning and the Pentagon is gone the FBI doesn't now command the US Air Force.

Also, simple point here, NEMA is clearly NOT in the US chain of command. It is a multi-national law enforcement and Peace Keeping force. This would be like saying in the apocalypse if Paris is destroyed then INTERPOL get to take command of the French Military.

There was no Government in Chicago, there were survivors being protected by a NEMA force that actually deserted from their post in the face of the enemy. There is no mention, in any book, of a president or even a congressmen in Chicago so no, even if they received comms from this group of NEMA deserters they would not have been obligated to obey it.

A quick point, I agree with Sawyer's actions so while it would technically be "desertion in face of the enemy" I think her actions are defensible even though they ultimately failed. The New Navy is then certainly defensible since you know they are succeeding.

eliakon wrote:
If they can't report in, they are to find a way to do so.
There are procedures on this.
And I will note that the books do NOT say that there was no government
Nor do the books say that there was no one at all in command
They books say that she was the most senior officer they could find and that the PotUS is dead.
That is rather different.
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that the entire succession was killed, then that is simply just fannon.

Again this is not how arguments work. Please show me in any of the books were my celestial tea pot doesn't exist. I gave you two books and then dreicunan gave you a page number. Your turn, site the book please.

eliakon wrote:
Unless someone can cite a statement that says that communications were not working then that is simply just fannon.

We already did, it says it in Underseas and Rifts Space. Where do you get any of this.

eliakon wrote:
And sorry, no your head canon and fannon is not an excuse for the marines to mutiny.

They were able to watch China go under on satalite coms

Citation please, I can't argue with something I can not see. People in space can see what is happening, we know that from CE and Rifts Space just to name a few but both of those say they couldn't communicate with the surface.

eliakon wrote:
They were able to talk to Chicago from Atlanta

Citation please, I can't argue with something I can not see. No, they weren't. They knew something was happening there but there was no communication listed that I saw so please cite this.

eliakon wrote:
They were able to talk from Earth to Space

Already covered this so citation please, I can't argue with something I can not see.

eliakon wrote:
So yeah, sorry the idea that coms were gone and there was no government at all... pure, 100% fannon.

Everybody here is citing books, you are the only one who hasn't so...

glitterboy2098 wrote:
eli, i'm afraid you are just wrong.
regarding succession..
Chaos Earth main book pg 10: "In the United States, New York City, Washington D.C., Boston, Baltimore, Savannah, orlando, Miami, and the entire Eastern Seaboard are... gone. Tens of millions of lives snuffed out in a matter of minutes!"
and then
"The president of the United States, away in Colorado to make a speech, survives the initial carnage and is spirited away to NORAD in the Cheyenne mountains. The Vice President, half of Congress, the Senate, and the President's family are not so lucky."

so pretty much the entire lower part of the line of succession is gone on day one when the eastern seaboard is pummeled by the tidal ways and other disasters. the president and presumably part of his cabinet, representing the rest of the line of succession, were away from DC and so evac'd to NORAD.. which went completely MIA on day three when yellowstone blew.

so by the day after christmas? there was no one left to give the navy orders. no one left with any sort of legitimate claim to the power of the federal government. and if by some absurd divine protection some individual did survive? well lets see the rest;


pg14: day three: december 24, 2098 christmas eve "Contact with the eastern seaboard and numerous cities and states are completely lost"
well i guess if anyone in the line of asuccession is out there, they aren't gonna be able to do **** as far as actually taking control.

Pg15: "worldwide communications collapse. There is no internet. no satellite feed, no far reaching television, and no telecommunications."

"In most cases, communications are so shattered that city blocks are cut off from their nearest neighbors. events happening only a few streets away go on without media coverage or media reports. Radios and televisions buzz with static or garbled noise."

so yeah.. there were spotty communications for three days after the cataclysm started, and basically no long range comms to speak of after christmas. orbital communications had been lost the day before christmas eve (pg14), so that wasn't an option for reaching the navy either.
really, the only way that could conceivably be used to reach the ships of the Ticonderga group would have been an ELF transmitter facility.. but first orders would have to reach that site, and as i've just shown, that wasn't going to happen, since not only was there no one who could give orders that would be recognized, but there was no way to get the orders there, whether by comms (not working) or physically (next to impossible due to the disasters)

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Co-author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


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